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View Poll Results: Which 2011 Mac solo album are you most anticipating?
Lindsey Buckingham's 21 28.77%
Stevie Nicks' 42 57.53%
Jeremy Spencer's 7 9.59%
All of the above equally 3 4.11%
Voters: 73. You may not vote on this poll

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  #31  
Old 03-01-2011, 11:15 PM
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louielouie2000 louielouie2000 is offline
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I'm so sick of this "Lindsey ruined Stevie SYW songs." Was she not present during the time? If she truly felt the results were below standards why didn't she speak up and tell him so? I don't get how this lady who tells Lindsey frankly she will not record an album with the band unless her particular producer is in command can not speak up and tell him just as well that what he did smelled like **** and he needs to step it up. Obviously, she didn't have a problem if the results went so far as the completed and released album. Complaining afterward is always easier.
I definitely agree with all of this. Stevie should have fought harder if she didn't like what she was hearing. However, I think simply blaming either Stevie OR Lindsey for the problems SYW encountered is also a bit out of line. After all, there are 4 people within Fleetwood Mac these days. And countless assistants, managers, attorneys, etc.

That being said, I still place the sound of SYW pretty much squarely on Lindsey's shoulders. If you watch Destiny Rules, Lindsey is the producer, musical director, architect, and driving force behind the album. It seems the band collectively spent much of their time fighting Lindsey against his insistence on SYW being a double album, his relentless push for SYW to be edgy vs familiar, Lindsey's insistence on using his personal mixer for all the songs, etc... and all the while, Lindsey kept threatening to pull all of his songs if he didn't get his way. I'd have to imagine Stevie just felt she had to make tremendous compromises on her songs just so she could keep the wheels moving and get the album finished. Stevie is fairly practical these days... she realizes how many people were relying on Fleetwood Mac for their income. I'm sure she just kinda gave up at one point and stopped fighting Lindsey so the album could just get finished and so they could get out on the road and make some real dough.
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  #32  
Old 03-01-2011, 11:17 PM
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thank you! my thoughts exactly every time i see the blame placed on a producer for stevie's songs not turning out right. doesn't she know what she wants, and doesn't she have a say? (she doesn't seem to have a problem expressing her opinions, judging by "you wouldn't say that to bob dylan" line...)

although having just heard the angry version of "smile at you", i have to say - that song was rocking (not just a voice, but guitar also), and is definitely not rocking on SYW.

in my ignorant world, songwriters and performers get a credit for songs, good or bad, not producers. people usually don't even know who is the producer.
Which is why Lindsey doesn't necessarily have the popular vote in FM. He may be the producer/arranger and did SO much to create the FM sound- along with a few others guys, but even THEY admit Lindsey was the commander in chief. But the songs from any of the three songwriters are music and words that have touched people. The production played a big part, but not even close. It's like the Beatles...the first thing you think about is Lennon/McCartney...and Harrison. You don't immediately associate the Beatles with George Martin, and that's exactly as it should be. Martin himself said that it was their beautiful music and he just got to play around with it.

So no matter what "magic" Lindsey poured all over Stevie's or Christine's songs, the songwriters are the ones primarily credited. This is why I'm not thrilled with this "let's blame Lindsey and Lindsey only" theme going with Stevie's SYW songs. Sorry, there are some good ones on there by her but I don't think it's her greatest stuff... Not by a long shot.
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  #33  
Old 03-01-2011, 11:31 PM
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That being said, I still place the sound of SYW pretty much squarely on Lindsey's shoulders. If you watch Destiny Rules, Lindsey is the producer, musical director, architect, and driving force behind the album. It seems the band collectively spent much of their time fighting Lindsey against his insistence on SYW being a double album, his relentless push for SYW to be edgy vs familiar, Lindsey's insistence on using his personal mixer for all the songs, etc... and all the while, Lindsey kept threatening to pull all of his songs if he didn't get his way. I'd have to imagine Stevie just felt she had to make tremendous compromises on her songs just so she could keep the wheels moving and get the album finished. Stevie is fairly practical these days... she realizes how many people were relying on Fleetwood Mac for their income. I'm sure she just kinda gave up at one point and stopped fighting Lindsey so the album could just get finished and so they could get out on the road and make some real dough.
I understand everything you wrote. And you may actually be correct about Lindsey being such an intense control freak, but if that is so I have to lose some respect for Stevie. If these songs were extremely special for her, some she had just written after a dry period, she should have stuck to her guns be damned. She almost matches Lindsey's key role by her popularity and audience draw. She has a ton of pull, and given that she presents the image of a tough, speaks-her-mind, type of dame I'm sure if it mattered enough she would have made it clear.

I have a feeling she was resting a bit on her laurels, and Lindsey. I think she was expecting him to be the same kind of guy who did all that fabulous stuff back in the day- and, well, we all reach our peak. Perhaps he had more invested in helping her so much back then, or cared more, but whatever the reason the bottom line is a bunch of people feel he didn't do her songs justice. And I just feel...perhaps Stevie didn't really care that much. I agree with you that she may have been playing a very good band member and wanted to get it moving...but risking her artistry? Is it worth it? That's what I don't get...

But the album was never bad to me. Never. I recall listening to it the first time that it sounded extremely adult contemporary and that Silver Girl was truly awful. But I loved Say Goodbye and Thrown Down instantly. True, Stevie's songs didn't hold up all that well for me compared to Lindsey's- but I can't call it awful. I feel there's all this negativity towards this album that wasn't even bad. I even wonder if it would be so had the album actually been more of a hit.
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Last edited by Nico; 03-02-2011 at 12:07 AM..
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  #34  
Old 03-01-2011, 11:49 PM
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I understand everything you wrote. And you may actually be correct about Lindsey being such an intense control freak, but if that is so I have to lose some respect for Stevie. If these songs were extremely special for her, some she had just written after a dry period, she should have stuck to her guns be damned. She almost matches Lindsey's key role by her popularity and audience draw. She has a ton of pull, and given that she presents the image of a tough, speaks-her-mind, type of dame I'm sure if it mattered enough she would have made it clear.

I have a feeling she was resting a bit on her laurels, and Lindsey. I think she was expecting him to be the same kind of guy who did all that fabulous stuff back in the day- and, well, we all reach our peak. Perhaps he had more invested in helping her so much back then, or cared more, but whatever the reason the bottom line is a bunch of people feel he didn't do her songs justice. And I just feel...perhaps Stevie didn't really care that much. I agree with you that she may have been playing a very good band member and wanted to get it moving...but for the sake of artistry? Is it worth it? That's what I don't get...

But the album was never bad to me. Never. I recall listening to it the first time that it sounded extremely adult contemporary and that Silver Girl was truly awful. But I loved Say Goodbye and Thrown Down instantly. True, Stevie's songs didn't hold up all that well for me compared to Lindsey's- but I can't call it awful. I feel there's all this negativity towards this album that wasn't even bad. I even wonder if it would be so had the album actually been more of a hit.
I agree with absolutely everything you said, especially the part I bolded. I think there was some really wonderful material on SYW. Nobody else seems to agree with me, but I think especially Illume is one of the coolest songs Stevie recorded within Fleetwood Mac. Destiny Rules is utterly classic sounding to me. I love the progressive feel most of the songs exude.

However as an album, I still argue SYW falls short. There is no continuity. Even Lindsey has recently admitted this. Stevie and Lindsey got away with this lack of continuity on Tusk because they still had Christine to bridge the gap. Without Christine as a buffer, Lindsey and Stevie seemed to instead be battling/clashing on SYW. Perhaps SYW was just the learning experience they needed, and the next FM album will benefit from it
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  #35  
Old 03-02-2011, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by louielouie2000 View Post
I agree with absolutely everything you said, especially the part I bolded. I think there was some really wonderful material on SYW. Nobody else seems to agree with me, but I think especially Illume is one of the coolest songs Stevie recorded within Fleetwood Mac. Destiny Rules is utterly classic sounding to me. I love the progressive feel most of the songs exude.

However as an album, I still argue SYW falls short. There is no continuity. Even Lindsey has recently admitted this. Stevie and Lindsey got away with this lack of continuity on Tusk because they still had Christine to bridge the gap. Without Christine as a buffer, Lindsey and Stevie seemed to instead be battling/clashing on SYW. Perhaps SYW was just the learning experience they needed, and the next FM album will benefit from it
And I totally see your perspective and agree with a great deal of what you said. I feel it's truly rewarding when, debating or discussing a topic that two may have differing views, the twain shall meet at some agreement. Bottom line: no matter how anyone personally feels about Lindsey or Stevie musically, the truth is they're both great. I don't want to argue who is greater or the last time one of them was great, I just want to be proud that two great people could be in a band together and, although very different and with an assortment of fans, they can be appreciated for their greatness and the part of it they care to share with us.
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  #36  
Old 03-02-2011, 08:16 AM
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That being said, I still place the sound of SYW pretty much squarely on Lindsey's shoulders. If you watch Destiny Rules, Lindsey is the producer, musical director, architect, and driving force behind the album. It seems the band collectively spent much of their time fighting Lindsey against his insistence on SYW being a double album, his relentless push for SYW to be edgy vs familiar, Lindsey's insistence on using his personal mixer for all the songs, etc... and all the while, Lindsey kept threatening to pull all of his songs if he didn't get his way. I'd have to imagine Stevie just felt she had to make tremendous compromises on her songs just so she could keep the wheels moving and get the album finished. Stevie is fairly practical these days... she realizes how many people were relying on Fleetwood Mac for their income. I'm sure she just kinda gave up at one point and stopped fighting Lindsey so the album could just get finished and so they could get out on the road and make some real dough.
If Stevie wants more control on how albums sound, she needs to be there for the whole process. On SYW (and TITN and Mirage), Stevie came in when there had already been months of work on the album.
Since Lindsey, Mick, and John put more work into the album, they may feel they have a right to have it sound how they want it to.
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Old 03-02-2011, 10:25 AM
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in my ignorant world, songwriters and performers get a credit for songs, good or bad, not producers. people usually don't even know who is the producer.
But in Buckingham's case, it's always been sort of a special case. He isn't just producing--making administrative decisions, mixing decisions, & logistical decisions about cuts & length. He's also heavily invested in the shape a track takes on tape. In fact, he's been largely responsible for that since 1976 because he is generating the sound ideas himself.

He isn't just the novelist who wrote the book. He's the one recording the books-on-tape, too, deciding things like intonation, tempo, where to breathe, if & when to cut, whether & what to add for music or FX backdrop for his reading, etc.

But even still--on Say You Will, he was working very closely with other people (like Mark Needham) whose sound ideas I wasn't so crazy about. The Caillat+Dashut team in the past were super-talented, & made sonic & artistic decisions about frequencies, for example, that won awards & pleased millions of listeners (without their even thinking about such things). But the Say You Will team, probably by design, shook all that up, following more contemporary practices in the studio world (for example, emphasizing mids to control the sonic landscape). I'm sure they set great store by their artistic decisions. I just happen not to like those decisions. Maybe the album was engineered to be most effective on today's reproduction equipment. I don't know. But I do know it doesn't sound like a vibrantly healthy album. Remember how one of the critics of Tusk--Stephen Holden or Noel Coppage or somebody--said that the digital recording created a glassy, unreal ambiance? Whatever slight sonic problems Tusk has, Say You Will has them in abundance.
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  #38  
Old 03-02-2011, 10:47 AM
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Tough choice! Like others, I'm finding myself getting swept up by Stevie's excitement for her project. It's been such a long time since TISL and I want to see where she's at these days -- particularly since Secret Love is pushing all my buttons. I'm extremely excited about Lindsey's album too, but probably more of that is coming from the prospect of attending his tour than from the album itself. As we learn more about it, though, that could change. So Stevie gets my vote, but really, I can't wait for either of these!
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