Lindsey's Arranging On Tango In Night

[Bryan]

]she's in there at 2:30 somewhere and other spots

[michelej1]

According to Mick, they layered her vocals into the mix of the album after the fact. It's not like they had a bunch of her background vocals there that Lindsey chose not to use. They didn't have much and only got some after the rest of the recording was finished.

They'd worked on it a year and she'd only been in the studio for a couple of days. When she heard the album and didn't hear herself (the argument erupted over Christine's song, according to Mick) she was mad and so they put her in, to the extent that they could.

But the fact that they didn't go back and put in MORE background vocals to mix into finished recordings after the album was done, just to make up for the fact that she wasn't there when they were actually doing it in the first place, would not suggest spitefulness on Lindsey's part to me.

If she'd been there all along and they viciously cut her backgrond vocals out, it would be a different story.

As far as the song choices on the album, I don't think What Has Rock and Roll Ever Done for You, is better than When I See You Again, not unless you wanted a faster song on the album. I'm not into the drug rehabilitation songs, but from the band's perspective, I think they thought the songs captured real emotions, the real pain of "Sara Anderson" and, in using them, they might have thought they were recreating some of the magic of Rumours where the songs reflected real life events. I think they thought they might be more powerful than other songs, because of the facts behind them.

Michele

[Christopher]

Originally Posted by michelej1

As far as the song choices on the album, I don't think What Has Rock and Roll Ever Done for You, is better than When I See You Again, not unless you wanted a faster song on the album. I'm not into the drug rehabilitation songs, but from the band's perspective, I think they thought the songs captured real emotions, the real pain of "Sara Anderson" and, in using them, they might have thought they were recreating some of the magic of Rumours where the songs reflected real life events. I think they thought they might be more powerful than other songs, because of the facts behind them.
Michele

I suspect many fans feel, as I do, that Stevie would have been better represented on TITN with her compositions; "Juliet" & "Joan Of Arc", not "What Has Rock n' Roll Ever Done For You".

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Christopher

I suspect many fans feel, as I do, that Stevie would have been better represented on TITN with her compositions; "Juliet" & "Joan Of Arc", not "What Has Rock n' Roll Ever Done For You".

And I thought of the latter because Mick had discussed discarding that and taking When I See You Again instead.

Michele

[aleuzzi]

Originally Posted by michelej1

I think of Christine promoting Meantime. I am sure Lindsey's many 30% more room comments had not eluded her and that's why she said that she really hated guitar solos. I don't think that was true, because Dan had a lot of guitar in her album and it wasn't particularly good. I just think she was taking a jab at Lindsey because he had taken some at her. The thing is, Lindsey wasn't necessarily putting guitar solos in her songs. He was always doing something fiddly with them to be sure, but he used many different sound effects. Everywhere, Little Lies and Hold Me strongly exemplify this. He didn't just jump in and say, "I'm going to slap a guitar solo here." His input was varied and complex. Although, when he did put down a guitar solo, I don't think Christine minded. YMLF.

Michele

In that interview she said she didn't like soloing for soloing's sake but she liked guitar parts. Most of Lindsey's guitar work, like Danny Kirwan's after Green left, is set pieces, actual pats that get slight variations in live performances. I don't think she was taking a jab at Lindsey at all. She was alluding to guitar-heavy rock (she even simulated a guitar wail with her voice to illustrate). That kind of rock is closer to Led Zeppelin which Bob Welch said she hated. Of all the Mac Guitarists, I think the one that comes closest to the kinds of solos she was alluding to was Bob Weston, who was prone to free form extrapolation in the live shows (both Welch and David Walker mention Weston's extensive soloing in their Q and As). In other interviews, Christine has said she loves the sound of a good guitar.

[aleuzzi]

Originally Posted by David

You've probably answered your own question by calling that section sequenced—nobody "played" it because it was programmed. It's too fast for me to hear it precisely, but I think it's the first five tones of a major scale without the fourth (i.e., I-ii-iii-V), ascending and descending repeatedly and rapidly. It's arpeggiated, a roll, with major 6th and major 7th chords in the bass. (I had to re-create it manually in my Fleetwood cover band.)

It's emblematic of what we mean when we call Lindsey the "arranger" or "orchestrator." He provided a lot of that texture, color, and ambience in the Fleetwood Mac tracks by 1) playing an instrument, 2) collating partial bits of tape into wholes, like weaving a tapestry from different materials, and 3) toying with artificial and "found" effects to influence sonics, tempo, dynamics, and wave forms.

One thing he's been doing for many, many years is to use guitars to simulate keyboards. This confounds our senses (one hopes in a good way). We think we're hearing a keyboard somewhere in a track, but in fact it was generated by a plectrum-type instrument. Lindsey once told an interviewer that some of what you hear on Fleetwood Mac albums that sounds like a keyboard is really a guitar or mandolin or banjo that has been "treated" (like costuming your kid on Halloween).

And the real keyboard moment in Everywhere is at the end, when underneath the voices you can hear Christine playing the main melody of Rachmaninov's Rhapsody in a Theme from Paganini!

[PenguinHead]

Originally Posted by Christopher

I suspect many fans feel, as I do, that Stevie would have been better represented on TITN with her compositions; "Juliet" & "Joan Of Arc", not "What Has Rock n' Roll Ever Done For You".

Had "Juliet" and "Joan of Arc" been on Tango In The Night, Stevie would have had a stronger presence on the album. "When I See You Again" is really poor attempt to generate the sentiment of Landslide, but the lyrics are sub-par. It should have been regulated to b-side status.

Although "Welcome to the Room Sara" generally evokes disdain by many people. I find it to be her most interesting and intriguing songs, as odd as it is.

[RockawayBlind]

Originally Posted by Bryan

The fact that she recorded her background vocals for all the tracks (doesn't take long) and he basically dumped them off the record, as well as choosing which of her songs were ''allowed'' on the record considering she had some pretty good ones lined up that she (and some fans I would imagine) would have preferred to go on there. In other words:he was being a spiteful bitch

This doesn't seem to be in line with the documented history of those sessions. Do you have a source for this statement?

According to what has been reported, Stevie was hardly present and when she complained she wasn't represented in the songs, the band layered some more harmonies to make her happy.

True, Lindsey was the architect of the Tango sound. The album doesn't get as much love as it deserves now because it sounds so dated but, the truth is, without Lindsey's genius, it would have likely been rather mediocre. It certainly would have lacked that "specialness" we would expect from FM. You can see what I mean buy listening to next studio album after that.

[Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by RockawayBlind

This doesn't seem to be in line with the documented history of those sessions. Do you have a source for this statement?

According to what has been reported, Stevie was hardly present and when she complained she wasn't represented in the songs, the band layered some more harmonies to make her happy.

True, Lindsey was the architect of the Tango sound. The album doesn't get as much love as it deserves now because it sounds so dated but, the truth is, without Lindsey's genius, it would have likely been rather mediocre. It certainly would have lacked that "specialness" we would expect from FM. You can see what I mean buy listening to next studio album after that.

I agree with pretty much all of that

Stevie was there for 10 days or something and Lindsey was having to arrange, co-produce, play guitar, sing his own songs, do backing on others etc..

Lindsey has said a few times that none of them were in great shape because of 'addictions' - so given all of that, and the fact that it was recorded at his own house - I think he did a hell of a job. I actually don't think this album sounds quite as dated as people make out either, listening to 'Everywhere' yesterday it still has a timeless feel about it.

It knocks spots off Mirage and the albums that followed for me, although he was fortunate that Christine produced (imo) her best set of songs and of course Richard Dashut played a big part, but given the pressure Lindsey was under (which was proved when he jumped ship not long afterwards) I'm glad it sold as well as it did and helped them re-establish themselves as a popular, big selling band again.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by RockawayBlind

This doesn't seem to be in line with the documented history of those sessions. Do you have a source for this statement?

According to what has been reported, Stevie was hardly present and when she complained she wasn't represented in the songs, the band layered some more harmonies to make her happy.

True, Lindsey was the architect of the Tango sound. The album doesn't get as much love as it deserves now because it sounds so dated but, the truth is, without Lindsey's genius, it would have likely been rather mediocre. It certainly would have lacked that "specialness" we would expect from FM. You can see what I mean buy listening to next studio album after that.

Nope,I can't- as I actually prefer BTM to TITN ! haha

Anyway ,sorry I don't rely on Mick's book as the Fleetwood Mac gospel to pull quotes from. But that is what happened ,he had a chip on his shoulder with her the entire time ..right up to when he left the band. And he called the shots with those songs,he asked for Seven Wonders in particular out of the bunch of songs she brought to them instead of what she was offering/hoping to record for the album...so he got it,even used the first vocal she did there and then for the song. Not that she'd complain now,she loves TITN but it seems wasteful to not have used the b/g vocals she recorded and the songs she presented..especially seeing as her solo career was still in good shape at that point..it'd have made sense to include her equally.
And lest we forget she was on tour and doing promo when they were putting Tango together..it's not like they called and she said no i'm not doing it,she literally couldn't be there due to commitments.
Sorry I can't reference sources or quotes i'd have to dig deep but there are others who can back this up out there who know their stuff i'm sure.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Bryan

Anyway ,sorry I don't rely on Mick's book as the Fleetwood Mac gospel to pull quotes from .

I don't rely on Mick's book as gospel either. However, what Mick said is what Stevie herself has said about that Tango recording process and her inability to participate. She corroborated what Mick said. And her absence was not just due to Rock a Little touring, but to her drug problems.

She has spoken about this as recently as this year.

Yes, it's true Juliet, Joan of Arc and Special Kind of Love didn't get on the album, but no one has said it's because Lindsey rejected those songs.

Originally Posted by Bryan

Not that she'd complain now,she loves TITN

Not that she'd complain? In what universe? She complains non-stop. I don't think she particularly likes Tango, but it's not because Lindsey messed up her songs. Before she talked about her drug problems, in the nineties she used to say she wasn't around for Tango because they were jealous of her solo career and treated her badly when she was there. She never said he didn't use her best songs or did a hatchet job on vocals or anything.

"It was extremely difficult. I wasn't there alot because it was extremely difficult and also because I have this other career. They would like for me to be there just because they like having me there. They always have from the very beginning, just for vibe, I guess. I guess I'm just a vibey person and when I come in to the studio or when I come into the dressing room where we're rehearsing or something, its like, everyone knows that as silly as I am and as unserious as I seem to be alot of the time that I really am very serious and that I want it to be good and that when I walk into the room, that it's serious, and if you don't need me, then let me go."

I wasn't there for a lot of that, 'cause I was on the road. It was me that was causing all the friction, 'cause Lindsey was the head guy and I was making him erratic. When I was not there it was good. They all got along fine. But, you have to understand that I'm an old girlfriend of Lindsey's, so that kind of makes me a war monger in his eye. So, when I walked in it was like, "Thanks so much for stopping by. We heard you were busy with your solo tour. Thanks for bailing on us." That's the first thing I got. I didn't have time for that abuse. And I felt like, "If you don't get off my back, I'm gonna injure you badly." It got so bad that I said, "I'm gonna do a solo record," much to Mick and Lindsey's absolute horror. From that moment on, I got treated much worse. However, they couldn't be too awful to me, 'cause they knew that they couldn't go out on the road without me. So they had to keep a certain level of niceness. Otherwise they knew I'd walk. I mean, I had platinum records and sold-out tours. Why did I need to be treated like this? There was plenty of jealousy in the air, but I felt so beaten down that I wanted to run away and hide."

Michele

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Bryan

...so he got it,even used the first vocal she did there and then for the song.

What are all these background vocals you think that Lindsey had from Stevie? He didn't. He may have had more backgrounds for Family Man, but that's about it.

As far as him using the first vocal for the song, what's wrong with that. How do you know the subsequent vocals she did for Seven Wonders were superior to the first vocal? Stevie herself said she couldn't do the vocal again as good as she did the very first time. So, why was it wrong for Lindsey to use that first vocal when Stevie agrees it was the best one?? She says that they "we" went with the first vocal.

Stevie said:

"Sandy Stewart, a very good friend of mine, came through Phoenix about, whenever it was, about a year ago, and spent two days. She played all her new demos for me. Amongst these songs was a song called "Seven Wonders." I instantly, the first time I heard it said to Sandy, 'are you gonna do this on your next album?' She said, 'when I wrote it I thought about you.' I said, 'what do you think about Fleetwood Mac?' She said as any wise songwriter would say, 'absolutely. Go ahead.' A couple months later, somebody said, 'you know that 'Seven Wonders' song, is it still available? And I said 'yeah, absolutely.'

So then the interviewer says that she used her own words for the song.
And Stevie answers:

Yeah, but the only reason for that was because we thought we had written down exactly as I sing them, the exact words to Seven Wonders. They cut the song without me there. Then I went in a couple nights later and sang it one time. Then I sang it three hundred more times but we went back to the original, very first vocal. I sang the words that I had written down and Sandy didn't unfortunately get me the real words before that. She knew about it so I sang those words. Then, I saw the real words and I tried to sing the real words, which are in fact very different. I couldn't do a vocal again like that very first time I walked up to the microphone and sang Seven Wonders.

[Bryan]

In this universe...she has said so.She loves TITN. ok sorry I can't trawl the net for endless quotes but it's true.

And I never said it was bad to use the first vocal,I just said it was used.It turned out great.

I'm not doing this net forum back & forth battle,it's soooo not my thing.

...And there are b/g vocals for a bunch of those songs,they weren't used,on the whole record she got the 'Tell Me liiiiesss' part (and the ''wearing out'' Am What I Am'' bit on Family Man that people swear is the Lindsey/speed oscillator thing)...that's it. Underused. That's all i'm saying.

[WildHearted]

So Stevie just sang what she THOUGHT were the lyrics to Seven Wonders for the initial takes takes, and then Sandy sent her the real lyrics and they were really different from what she had been singing... and they ended up going with the first take so that's why she has co-writing credit? Am I understanding that right?

[Johnny Stew]

I've always strongly believed that, if nothing else, a different sequencing would have helped balance Stevie's presence on the album. She has the second slot on the album, and then is basically MIA for the next 6 tracks. Moving both "Little Lies" and "Welcome To The Room, Sara" a little earlier in the running order helps a lot.

(ETA: I also have an issue with Christine disappearing for nine songs on 'Tusk.')