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  #31  
Old 06-09-2005, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiliD
SGGTHKIT: It's on Vaudeville Years...making it not so obscure.
WIH: It's on Showbiz Blues again...not as obscure as it was once.
I wasn't sure if the "Showbiz Blues" versions were the same as the previously released versions, or just earlier versions of the songs. If they are indeed the same, I'll take them off the list. Actually SGGTHKIT was also released on "The Collection" back in the late '80s on Castel records.
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Originally Posted by chiliD
Dragonfly: Greatest Hits (1971) not that obscure
D'OH

I meant to say "Lizard People." I was typing too fast. When you type faster than you think...well, you know...
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Originally Posted by chiliD
Purple Dancer: You bet!
Blow By Blow (Soccer Rocks The Globe version, right? Yeah, I'll give you that one, too)
Yep, the SRTG version. Or, as I like to call it, the better version

Okay, the revised top five:

Purple Dancer
Blow By Blow ('94 mix)
Lizard People
Cool Water
Down Endless Street (A b-side for a song that was never really a single. At least it wasn't released in the same quantity as the other four Tango singles.)
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  #32  
Old 06-10-2005, 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by SteveMacD
Cool Water
B-side of "GYPSY"??? How obscure is THAT?
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  #33  
Old 06-10-2005, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveMacD
Not even close, really. Let's compare the 1971 Greatest Hits album to the 1988 Greatest Hits (NOTE: The European version of the latter album had a different track listing. Thus, I'm using the tracks from BOTH albums for this example.):


The Green Manalishi: Peter
Oh Well - Part 1: Peter
Oh Well - Part 2: Peter
Shake Your Moneymaker: Jeremy
Need Your Love So Bad: Peter
Rattlesnake Shake: Peter
Dragonfly: Danny
Black Magic Woman: Peter
Albatross: Peter
Man Of The World: Peter
Stop Messin' Round: Peter
Love That Burns: Peter
Peter = 10; Jeremy = 1; Danny = 1

Rhiannon: Stevie
Don't Stop: Christine
Go Your Own Way: Lindsey
Hold Me: Christine
Everywhere: Christine
Gypsy: Stevie
You Make Loving Fun: Christine
As Long As You Follow: Christine
Dreams: Stevie
Say You Love Me: Christine
Tusk: Lindsey
Little Lies: Christine
Sara: Stevie
Big Love: Lindsey
Over My Head: Christine
No Questions Asked: Stevie
*Seven Wonders: Stevie
*Oh Diane: Lindsey
Stevie = 6; Christine = 8; Lindsey = 4

Clearly, Peter Green was the hands-down star of his version of Fleetwood Mac, whereas the "Rumours" band was a bit more evenly divided.

I appreciate the point you're making, even though I compared the Green-era line-up to the current line-up, not the 'Rumours' line-up - and last time I looked, Christine had left. Also I was thinking more of the band as a live attraction - far more people show up to see Stevie than Lindsey or the other two. I accept that's just an opinion and many many people are about to disagree

The reason the 1971 GH album is full of Peter Green songs is that he had all the singles. Danny had none till Peter left and Jeremy had one as far as I know (the first). As far as singles and hits go, sure - it was the Peter Green show, but live it was much more of a group thing. I guess that was my point

As for obscure songs - I'd say the original version of World In Harmony was pretty obscure. I know it has shown up on the Show-Biz Blues set and Live in Boston etc, but the original was only on the B-side of Manalishi and a German GH album (Purple Dancer was on there as well).

Last edited by bretonbanquet; 06-10-2005 at 02:06 PM..
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  #34  
Old 06-10-2005, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by bretonbanquet
I appreciate the point you're making, even though I compared the Green-era line-up to the current line-up, not the 'Rumours' line-up - and last time I looked, Christine had left. Also I was thinking more of the band as a live attraction - far more people show up to see Stevie than Lindsey or the other two. I accept that's just an opinion and many many people are about to disagree
In general, I'm sure Stevie is the biggest draw of the lot. But even still, I don't think it's a very good analogy. Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac really only required Peter Green. People would have easily accepted the band without Jeremy or Danny. Sure, those two were great on stage, but people would have gone to see Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac if it were Peter, Mick, John, and Stan Webb, Christine Perfect, Kim Simmonds, or any other combination of British blues musicians. Also, look at what happened right after Peter Green quit. People just stopped caring. Even the addition of Christine Perfect, herself a huge star on the British blues scene, couldn't put the band back on top.

With the SYW band, it's not so cut and dry. Unlike Peter Green's FM, we have proof from solo careers and latter day versions of Fleetwood Mac that basically proves the Big Mac is an entity that is greater than any one member. Sure, Stevie is still the biggest selling point the band has. But, if we look at the time after Stevie quit, we see that the "Rumours"/BTM/SYW bands were bigger than any one member. "Time" was a huge flop, but then again, I'm pretty sure things were in motion for a Big Mac version of "Hell Freezes Over" by the time it came out, so of course they weren't going to promote it. What's odd is that Lindsey worked his tail off for OOTC, and it was a flop, and Stevie's "Street Angel," while doing better than OOTC or "Time" still sold less than 300K. So, while SYW wasn't a hit, it was still the most viable studio album released by any of them since BTM. And, honestly, I don't think the live shows would have done well if it had been, say, Mick, John, Stevie, Billy, and Rick.
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  #35  
Old 06-10-2005, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveMacD
In general, I'm sure Stevie is the biggest draw of the lot. But even still, I don't think it's a very good analogy. Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac really only required Peter Green. People would have easily accepted the band without Jeremy or Danny. Sure, those two were great on stage, but people would have gone to see Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac if it were Peter, Mick, John, and Stan Webb, Christine Perfect, Kim Simmonds, or any other combination of British blues musicians. Also, look at what happened right after Peter Green quit. People just stopped caring. Even the addition of Christine Perfect, herself a huge star on the British blues scene, couldn't put the band back on top.
IMO, nothing says rock star like being a guitar god. The god was gone, so the masses stopped caring.
And on a similar note, I think the litmus test for a band's longevity(whether new material is still their forte or not), is having 4 or 5 big GUITAR rock songs. If you've got that, you can ride those coattails for a looooong time, milking those anthems forever.
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  #36  
Old 06-10-2005, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveMacD
Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac really only required Peter Green. People would have easily accepted the band without Jeremy or Danny. Sure, those two were great on stage, but people would have gone to see Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac if it were Peter, Mick, John, and Stan Webb, Christine Perfect, Kim Simmonds, or any other combination of British blues musicians. Also, look at what happened right after Peter Green quit. People just stopped caring. Even the addition of Christine Perfect, herself a huge star on the British blues scene, couldn't put the band back on top.
Fleetwood Mac did require Peter Green, of course. But Peter Green required Fleetwood Mac. Without them, particularly Danny, I don't think he would have been particularly successful once the brief initial blues-only period was over and Peter was tired of it. He said himself that 'Albatross' wouldn't have happened without Danny, although I accept that the crowds and record-buying public would not have realised that. I am as certain as I can be that Peter required first Jeremy and later Danny in order to achieve what he wanted with the band. I don't believe any of the other musicians you mentioned, talented as they were / are, could have inspired Peter like Danny did. People may well have gone to see Mac with those musicians involved, but I really don't think songs like 'Albatross' and 'Green Manalishi' would have happened, in which case you have to wonder how long the band would have lasted anyway. If you think about what would have happened after 'Mr Wonderful' had Danny not joined, how do you imagine it?

As much as Mac went under without Peter, he went under without them. That is to say, once he had outgrown the inspiration offered to him by Danny and had started moving in a new musical direction (the free form stuff and the improvisational jamming etc) he found himself on his own musically. I think this contributed to his obvious problems in other areas and is often overlooked. Without the musical support of anyone else, he sank like a stone and disappeared for 6 years. Maybe with a new muse to bounce off, maybe things could have been different.

I suppose what I mean by all this is that the composition of the band surrounding Peter was a lot more important than is often realised. They helped him to be who we all saw as Peter Green. It's hypothetical, but I don't believe anyone else could have done that.

In that way I think the early line-up is similar to how you viewed the later line-ups, i.e. the band is bigger than the constituent members, but with Peter's line-up it looked on the surface like he was standing up more or less on his own.
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  #37  
Old 06-10-2005, 06:11 PM
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It is pretty much the same as when Jack Bruce & Ginger Baker got another guitarist (Clem Cleamons, ex-Humble Pie guitarist)...it still wasn't Cream without Clapton. (although, they didn't call the band "Cream" either)

Fleetwood Mac in those days wasn't the same without Peter Green...but, they kept the name the same, therefore the comparisons were escalated. If they'd changed the name of the band after Peter left, then they might have fared better sooner.
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  #38  
Old 06-10-2005, 07:42 PM
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Not sure what you folks mean with "obscure". However it appears to me that it was only the Peter Green line-up that played songs live they never recorded in the studio. That is, not only covers of "traditional" blues songs, but also Danny's "One Sided Love".

Wouter
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  #39  
Old 06-10-2005, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by chiliD
It is pretty much the same as when Jack Bruce & Ginger Baker got another guitarist (Clem Cleamons, ex-Humble Pie guitarist)...it still wasn't Cream without Clapton. (although, they didn't call the band "Cream" either).
I don't recall a Clem Cleamons being guitarist for Humble Pie aside from Peter Frampton and Steve Marriott.
Sure you're not confused with Clem Clempson, guitarist for Colosseum?

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Wouter
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  #40  
Old 06-10-2005, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wouter Vuijk
Not sure what you folks mean with "obscure". However it appears to me that it was only the Peter Green line-up that played songs live they never recorded in the studio. That is, not only covers of "traditional" blues songs, but also Danny's "One Sided Love".
Well, we were talking about songs that were officially released, i.e. as an album track, single, or b-side.
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  #41  
Old 06-10-2005, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by bretonbanquet
Fleetwood Mac did require Peter Green, of course. But Peter Green required Fleetwood Mac. Without them, particularly Danny, I don't think he would have been particularly successful once the brief initial blues-only period was over and Peter was tired of it.
Maybe, maybe not. All I know is that it was Peter Green who was getting all of the attention with other rock royalty, not Danny or Jeremy. It was Peter who had all of the hits, not Jeremy or Danny. Don't get me wrong, I think Danny was probably the most important guitarist the Mac ever had. Peter Green was one of the most noteable guitarists in the music biz for a few years. I think many musicians would quickly volunteer to work with Pete. If Peter had been so inclined, Fleetwood Mac could easily have been a trio.
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Originally Posted by bretonbanquet
He said himself that 'Albatross' wouldn't have happened without Danny, although I accept that the crowds and record-buying public would not have realised that.
I've also read an interview where Peter said he was annoyed at some of the things Danny did on "Albatross." Also, he has said that he and Danny really didn't have any chemistry, at least not compared to the "Rumours" band.
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Originally Posted by bretonbanquet
I am as certain as I can be that Peter required first Jeremy and later Danny in order to achieve what he wanted with the band.
I don't think he so much required Jeremy, just that he didn't want to be the sole frontman of Fleetwood Mac. Peter has said many times that he didn't want to be the guitar hero. As for Danny, that was Mick's call. I think they were able to work some magic, but I'm still not convinced that it had to be Danny. Now, I think Danny was crucial in taking the Mac out of the blues and out of improv and into more mainstream pop, but that happened after Peter left.
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Originally Posted by bretonbanquet
I don't believe any of the other musicians you mentioned, talented as they were / are, could have inspired Peter like Danny did.
Again, from all I've read, I don't think Danny was as big an inspiration on Peter as you seem to think. I think having a second guitarist in general helped Peter (since Jeremy didn't play on Peter's stuff) explore more options. It was just luck that it was Danny.
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Originally Posted by bretonbanquet
People may well have gone to see Mac with those musicians involved, but I really don't think songs like 'Albatross' and 'Green Manalishi' would have happened, in which case you have to wonder how long the band would have lasted anyway. If you think about what would have happened after 'Mr Wonderful' had Danny not joined, how do you imagine it?
Well, there are a million "what ifs" that we could do with Fleetwood Mac. When Peter was coming up with "Albatross" he had Santo & Johnny's "Sleepwalk" going through his head, so maybe it could have happened. As for "Manalishi," it might not have happened, but I would rather have never heard that one song in favor of Peter still being a part of Fleetwood Mac, never having left in the first place.
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Originally Posted by bretonbanquet
As much as Mac went under without Peter, he went under without them. That is to say, once he had outgrown the inspiration offered to him by Danny and had started moving in a new musical direction (the free form stuff and the improvisational jamming etc) he found himself on his own musically. I think this contributed to his obvious problems in other areas and is often overlooked. Without the musical support of anyone else, he sank like a stone and disappeared for 6 years. Maybe with a new muse to bounce off, maybe things could have been different.
I'm not sure I totally agree. Peter's "going under" had little to do with music and more to do with mental illness. I'm POSITIVE Peter Green could have gotten an A-list group together, had he so chosen, and gone further than Fleetwood Mac. But, Peter wanted to be obscure. Notice that his picture is nowhere to be found on "End Of The Game."

No, I still contend that it was mental illness. As pretty much everybody BUT Peter seems to have noticed, he changed significantly after that trip to Germany. Whenever McVie is asked about it, he still gets very, VERY angry. I'm sure that the Mac wasn't able to musically go where he wanted to go, but I honestly believe that THAT was a very small part of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bretonbanquet
I suppose what I mean by all this is that the composition of the band surrounding Peter was a lot more important than is often realised. They helped him to be who we all saw as Peter Green. It's hypothetical, but I don't believe anyone else could have done that.

In that way I think the early line-up is similar to how you viewed the later line-ups, i.e. the band is bigger than the constituent members, but with Peter's line-up it looked on the surface like he was standing up more or less on his own.
Again, I don't think people would have cared had Jeremy or Danny not been there. I don't think people would feel the same about the band today without Lindsey.
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  #42  
Old 06-10-2005, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Wouter Vuijk
I don't recall a Clem Cleamons being guitarist for Humble Pie aside from Peter Frampton and Steve Marriott.
Sure you're not confused with Clem Clempson, guitarist for Colosseum?

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Wouter

My mistake...YES, it WAS Clem Clempson. Clem took Peter Frampton's place in Humble Pie in 1972...his first album with them was the Smokin' album (with the great Humble Pie classic, "30 Days In The Hole" and their fantastic cover of Eddie Cochrane's "C'mon Everybody").

I seem to remember Clem leaving Colosseum after their 1971 Live album. I DO remember that Gary Moore replaced Clem when Jon Hiesman reformed Colosseum after a couple of year hiatus. (That reformed band, Hiesman named "Colosseum II" and also included eventual original Peter Green Splinter Group bassist Neal Murray)
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Last edited by chiliD; 06-11-2005 at 12:01 AM..
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  #43  
Old 06-11-2005, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by SteveMacD
I've also read an interview where Peter said he was annoyed at some of the things Danny did on "Albatross." Also, he has said that he and Danny really didn't have any chemistry, at least not compared to the "Rumours" band.
You don't have to read too many of Peter's interviews to realise that he contradicts himself a lot - I've read several conflicting remarks about Danny and about the other members. To say that he and Danny had no chemistry is patently not correct, and what exactly would he know about any chemistry the 'Rumours' line-up may have had? I'm not really sure Peter has concrete opinions much of the time - he changes his opinion according to the mood he's in at the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveMacD
I don't think he so much required Jeremy, just that he didn't want to be the sole frontman of Fleetwood Mac. Peter has said many times that he didn't want to be the guitar hero.
Yeah, that's what I meant - I think Jeremy was only brought in to take pressure off Peter at shows, and he did a fantastic job of that.

The other thing I wanted to say was regarding the public's view of Jeremy and Danny versus Lindsey. Lindsey's been in and out of the band for 30 years, J & D had only been around 2-3 years during the 69-70 era we're talking about. To me, this is the only reason why Lindsey might be more sorely missed now if the band toured without him. He's had a lot longer to stamp his personality and musical expression on the band.

I don't disagree with most of what you said - a lot of it is conjecture of course, but it's very interesting to discuss it
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  #44  
Old 06-11-2005, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by bretonbanquet
Lindsey's been in and out of the band for 30 years...
Gotta admit though...mostly OUT.
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  #45  
Old 06-11-2005, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by chiliD
Gotta admit though...mostly OUT.
True, but he had been in the band longer than Jeremy and probably Danny by the time of "Fleetwood Mac Live," so he may have a point. Personally, for me, I'm still not sold on the comparison due to the fact that the "Rumours" band sold over 25 million albums from 1975 through 1980. The scale was just so different. I think, in terms of status within the band, Lindsey is more comperable to, say, George Harrison with the Beatles than either Jeremy Spencer or Danny Kirwan with Fleetwood Mac. He wasn't the big star, but he had some of the bigger hits, and the public wouldn't likely accept the band without him.
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