The Death Of Fleetwood Mac...Time

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

I I personally love Trevor Rabin; he drastically refreshed the Yes sound while retaining the essence that made them who they are. He's a tremendous guitarist/singer/songwriter/producer, and his unique style is undeniable. I think it would be interesting to re-imagine Behind the Mask recorded in the style of Yes' Big Generator.

Well, personally, I thought he took Yes and changed them into a Journey/Styx/Foreigner clone band...just made them nauseating. "Owner Of A Lonely Heart"? Hand me the puke-bucket! So, as far as I'm concerned, keep him the hell away from Fleetwood Mac.

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by bretonbanquet

If you think Tusk was the most musically progressive album ever produced by anyone, then your record collection must be tiny.

I'm looking at the album within the context of its time. With bands like Wilco and Death Cab for Cutie now a dime-a-dozen, Tusk doesn't sound all that radical. But at the end of the '70s, no mainstream rock group was making music like this; considering that a sequel to Rumours was practically a given, they completely threw everyone a curve ball. This album came completely out of left field. It is as important in rock music as the trifecta of late 60s albums from the Beatles.

OK, I'll qualify my statement - of course it was a radical departure from Rumours, but only Lindsey was particularly creative on that album, and he was never really allowed to do it again Even then, a lot of his songs on there are pretty similar, and after a while, that stuff was too outré for Fleetwood Mac. Stevie and Chris weren't doing anything progressive on there. That's not to say it's not good - it is. But the creativity was limited to one member, and it did not resurface to any great degree on future albums.

I have to disagree. Yes, Lindsey went the furthest afield... but being different simply for the sake of being different does not automatically make you "creative." I think everyone flexed their creative muscles on this album. Christine, the master of 3-minute pop treats, delivered a surprisingly spare/unembellished jazz-tinged song like "Brown Eyes." Stevie took her ethereal persona to the nth degree in the sprawling epic "Sara." Sure, other songs remained true to form. But you simply can't have a Fleetwood Mac album that tries too hard not to sound like Fleetwood Mac!

True, but what that also does is weed out any tendency towards risk-taking, which is where a band's musical development comes from. Take no risks, you stand still, which is what they've done for years.

I really don't think you've listened to Say You Will. Sure, there are some safe, pleasant, radio-oriented singles on there- those are a given. But what about songs like "Everybody Finds Out," "Illume," "Murrow" and "Red Rover?" They've never, ever done anything like that before. And although the production of "Smile at You" has been almost universally hated (myself included), you can't deny that it ventures into totally new musical territory for FM.

I do think it's tedious. There are various genres on there, but we're dipping our toes into all of them, without really exploring any of them. It's blues lite, rockabilly lite, folk lite, and no prog rock at all. It was the result of using new members without really letting rip. Stevie was atrocious on parts of that album, which didn't help.

"In the Back of My Mind" is semi-prog. And I agree, Stevie's contributions on BTM were not among her best ever.

Well, there's no accounting for taste -

I know. I know because people have the audacity to defend Time.

Behind the Mask was lacklustre and in parts, really formulaic. "Stand on the Rock", anyone? Why Rick's better songs weren't used is a mystery. Yes, Time was interesting, starting with Bekka. Dave Mason's songs were ordinary but decent enough, and Christine's were fairly bland, but Bekka and Billy provided some really decent stuff. Even Mick got an outing for one of his weird pieces, something which had previously been restricted to B-sides ("Lizard People") or not tried at all. And there's no blues on Time.

Given your somewhat dubious praise of Time above, I think "Stand on the Rock" would have fit perfectly on it! In fact, I wish it was there and not on BTM.

Why no album since then, by the way? Because there are no new ideas.

Um... because Lindsey is an ass and Stevie misses Christine. Oops... it's no longer 2009. Um... I think Lindsey has been giving us nothing but "new ideas" since SYW. And Stevie is in the process of giving us something new. I think the fact that they have not gotten together is more of a political issue than an artistic issue.

No. I'd say she provided the style, while Lindsey provided the substance. Chris did a little of both. I fully believe that without Fleetwood Mac, Stevie would not have had much of a career.

Well, I think legions of Stevie fans would disagree, but she seems to be one of those extremely polarizing figures- you either love her or hate her. There is no such thing as being indifferent about Stevie Nicks.

Then shame on him. The fake Mac was a different thing. There's worrying about a band stealing your name, and then there's worrying about protecting a brand at the expense of musical integrity. Again, ABBA were a different thing - they'd never had different members for a start, whereas Stevie and Lindsey were latecomers. That's what a lot of people don't get - Fleetwood Mac had always been a revolving door of members. If Peter Green could be replaced, then so could Stevie and Lindsey. Musically, it was possible of course, but they followed the money instead. Nothing wrong in that, but denying it is pointless. All four of them are chasing the dollars, and the music is a poor second. I love them as much as anyone, but I can't pretend to think otherwise.

Well, when Peter Green left the band, they really had no choice but to carry on as Fleetwood Mac due to contractual obligations. And it seems that, in the past, whenever Fleetwood Mac changed its lineup, it was done in small increments for the sake of continuity- a member here, a member there, etc. I think the next logical step after BTM would have been a Chris, Billy, Rick, John and Mick lineup. Instead, Mick did the unthinkable... the almost unforgiveable... he tried to replace Stevie Nicks! He can deny it all he wants to, but it was no mere coincidence that he enlisted this new member who was a cute blonde chick singer who stood center stage. He failed to grasp then what he now knows the hard way- Stevie Nicks cannot be replaced. Period. Ask any Chiffonhead. There are just some things in the world that you just don't f*** with. You just don't f*** with Mama!

[Meowi]

What is Fleetwood Mac:

a) A popular 1960's british blues band, led by Peter Green
b) A new band headed by Christine Mcvie, Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks.

Peter, Christine, Lindsey and Stevie all have on thing in common - they are unique. Thats what made the Mac the Mac. You cannot just take them away - and call it the same.

[louielouie2000]

I guess I just fail to see how the Time chapter qualifies as forward movement or natural progression. To me it just seems utterly formulaic.

"A pretty blond front woman brought us fame before? Let's get another!"

"Bluesy music is how Fleetwood Mac got started? Let's capitalize on that!"

To me, the entire Time era just seems utterly contrived. If it was truly a step forward and a new beginning, the Time lineup would have come out with a new sound, a new look, they wouldn't have recruited random past members, or put a pretty blond girl out front in a shawl to sing Gold Dust Woman. I guess I just fail to see how a certain subset of folks on this board pan chiffonheads for their blind allegiance to Stevie, when they give the Time incarnation of the band the exact same latitude. It's pure hypocrisy. The whole Time experiment failed because it wasn't genuine, period. Yes, Fleetwood Mac is known for it's lineup changes... but by the time Time was released their image and persona was frozen in the public's mindset. There were no rebirths left in Fleetwood Mac.

The bottom line for me? Fleetwood Mac's namesake members have dismissed the Time incarnation... that's all I need to hear.

[TerraRhiannon]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

I guess I just fail to see how the Time chapter qualifies as forward movement or natural progression. To me it just seems utterly formulaic.

"A pretty blond front woman brought us fame before? Let's get another!"

"Bluesy music is how Fleetwood Mac got started? Let's capitalize on that!"

To me, the entire Time era just seems utterly contrived. If it was truly a step forward and a new beginning, the Time lineup would have come out with a new sound, a new look, they wouldn't have recruited random past members, or put a pretty blond girl out front in a shawl to sing Gold Dust Woman. I guess I just fail to see how a certain subset of folks on this board pan chiffonheads for their blind allegiance to Stevie, when they give the Time incarnation of the band the exact same latitude. It's pure hypocrisy. The whole Time experiment failed because it wasn't genuine, period. Yes, Fleetwood Mac is known for it's lineup changes... but by the time Time was released their image and persona was frozen in the public's mindset. There were no rebirths left in Fleetwood Mac.

The bottom line for me? Fleetwood Mac's namesake members have dismissed the Time incarnation... that's all I need to hear.

I agree with everything you just said, Louie. And another thing if the Time lineup was a step forward it probably would have stayed like that, and they would have made more records. When you say the image of the band was frozen in the public's mindset you are absolutely right - along with the band's mindset. During The Dance rehearsal interview Mick said: This is THEE lineup of Fleetwood Mac." 'Nuff said. Also I find it odd that the band doesn't even acknowledge Time, I think I said that in another thread somewhere. That makes me not want to listen to it. While we're picking, just for fun - what is up with the album art? That alone makes me not want to listen to it - B-o-r-i-n-g. I'm not apologizing for that one.

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

I guess I just fail to see how the Time chapter qualifies as forward movement or natural progression. To me it just seems utterly formulaic.

"A pretty blond front woman brought us fame before? Let's get another!"

"Bluesy music is how Fleetwood Mac got started? Let's capitalize on that!"

To me, the entire Time era just seems utterly contrived. If it was truly a step forward and a new beginning, the Time lineup would have come out with a new sound, a new look, they wouldn't have recruited random past members, or put a pretty blond girl out front in a shawl to sing Gold Dust Woman. I guess I just fail to see how a certain subset of folks on this board pan chiffonheads for their blind allegiance to Stevie, when they give the Time incarnation of the band the exact same latitude. It's pure hypocrisy. The whole Time experiment failed because it wasn't genuine, period. Yes, Fleetwood Mac is known for it's lineup changes... but by the time Time was released their image and persona was frozen in the public's mindset. There were no rebirths left in Fleetwood Mac.

The bottom line for me? Fleetwood Mac's namesake members have dismissed the Time incarnation... that's all I need to hear.

What the Time bashers seem to overlook is that Bekka had been in Mick's sideband The Zoo for three years before Mick asked her to be in the newly reconstituted Fleetwood Mac. Same with Billy Burnette...he was in The Zoo a couple of incarnations prior to Bekka. Nothing contrived there...it was just a natural progression. It wasn't as if Mick & John held 12 hour a day auditions until they found "THE" blonde singer to take Stevie's place. (Unlike, let's say, JOURNEY, who purposely did a worldwide search for a Steve Perry soundalike) IF Mick was TRYING to find a "replacement" for Stevie Nicks, there are a whole lot of Stevie Nicks wannabes floating around Southern California that he could've chosen f rom. He didn't.

The only part of "contrived" was Dave Mason...Mick was looking elsewhere for a lead guitarist and Dave just bugged him until his defenses were down and Mick relented.

The problem is that once again (just like when he had the choice of making less money but keeping Peter Green or going for the "green" and eventually LOSING Peter Green), Mick went for the almighty dollar over doing something more creative with a new lineup of Fleetwood Mac. Instead of possibly reinventing Fleetwood Mac into an entity with integrity, he went for the quick payday and sold out to "what had already been"...you can't recreate the past...but, Mick tried, got his payday, but lost a whole lot of respect in the process.

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by MacShadowsBall

Okay according to wikipedia, Christine had 9 Top 40 hits, Stevie had 5, and Lindsey had 3. Thats from the US charts - Rumours Era.

Over here in the UK, Christine had 4 Top 40 hits, Lindsey had 4, and Stevie had 2. Chris and Lindsey had 2 Top 10 hits each, while Stevie's best shot was "Dreams" at #24.

Peter had 6 Top 40 hits, and if you count re-releases, it was 8. Actually, all of his singles went Top 40.

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Yes, it was the first FM studio album in eons not to crack the U.S. Top 10. Plus only one single charted in the U.S.- barely in the Top 40. The fact that it was such a bigger hit in the UK can be attributed directly to the overhang from Christine's Tango singles, which were mega-hits over there.

True fact. Even Time charted over here. None of Behind the Mask's or Time's singles reached the Top 50 here though. "Save Me" was a hit in Europe but not in the UK. Fleetwood Mac have only had 2 charting songs in the last 20 years in the UK - "Love Shines" (#83) and "The Chain" (#94) after it was reinstalled as the theme music to the Formula One coverage.

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

I'm looking at the album within the context of its time. With bands like Wilco and Death Cab for Cutie now a dime-a-dozen, Tusk doesn't sound all that radical. But at the end of the '70s, no mainstream rock group was making music like this; considering that a sequel to Rumours was practically a given, they completely threw everyone a curve ball. This album came completely out of left field. It is as important in rock music as the trifecta of late 60s albums from the Beatles.

I'll agree that 70s mainstream rock bands weren't doing anything radical, particularly in the US, but over here, punk had pushed rock bands into doing different things. It might be a US/UK thing - Tusk is all but forgotten here. I have to disagree strongly about that last sentence though...

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

I have to disagree. Yes, Lindsey went the furthest afield... but being different simply for the sake of being different does not automatically make you "creative." I think everyone flexed their creative muscles on this album. Christine, the master of 3-minute pop treats, delivered a surprisingly spare/unembellished jazz-tinged song like "Brown Eyes." Stevie took her ethereal persona to the nth degree in the sprawling epic "Sara." Sure, other songs remained true to form. But you simply can't have a Fleetwood Mac album that tries too hard not to sound like Fleetwood Mac!

"Brown Eyes" was a little different for Chris, but her other songs were typical Christine. I'm not really knocking that as such, because she had a formula which worked. So did Stevie, and changing it was a risk - they were already a bit shackled by their success.

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

I really don't think you've listened to Say You Will. Sure, there are some safe, pleasant, radio-oriented singles on there- those are a given. But what about songs like "Everybody Finds Out," "Illume," "Murrow" and "Red Rover?" They've never, ever done anything like that before. And although the production of "Smile at You" has been almost universally hated (myself included), you can't deny that it ventures into totally new musical territory for FM.

"Illumé" I find hard to listen to "Murrow" and "Red Rover" were a bit of a departure, but not in terms of what Lindsey had been doing outside Mac, which most Mac fans would have been familiar with. That's what I mean by it sounding half like a Lindsey solo album.

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

I know. I know because people have the audacity to defend Time.

Gotta stand up for your beliefs! I think the big difference is whether you view it as a standalone album and take it on its merits, or compare it to what went before.

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Given your somewhat dubious praise of Time above, I think "Stand on the Rock" would have fit perfectly on it! In fact, I wish it was there and not on BTM.

Probably true, but then Bekka's backing vocals might have dragged it up a notch or two.

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Um... because Lindsey is an ass and Stevie misses Christine. Oops... it's no longer 2009. Um... I think Lindsey has been giving us nothing but "new ideas" since SYW. And Stevie is in the process of giving us something new. I think the fact that they have not gotten together is more of a political issue than an artistic issue.

Lindsey has had new ideas, but clearly nobody felt they were suitable to become Fleetwood Mac songs. Stevie's coming up with new stuff? I sense the fabric of the space-time continuum straining under the shock I'd say a new album hasn't happened because of both political and artistic issues.

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Well, I think legions of Stevie fans would disagree, but she seems to be one of those extremely polarizing figures- you either love her or hate her. There is no such thing as being indifferent about Stevie Nicks.

Oh, I definitely don't hate her. I rather like her actually - she seems like a decent sort, and I do like her Mac stuff up to and including Mirage. After that, not so much, and her solo stuff I find a bit patchy. I do understand the fascination with her (I had expert help ) even though I don't join in.

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Well, when Peter Green left the band, they really had no choice but to carry on as Fleetwood Mac due to contractual obligations. And it seems that, in the past, whenever Fleetwood Mac changed its lineup, it was done in small increments for the sake of continuity- a member here, a member there, etc. I think the next logical step after BTM would have been a Chris, Billy, Rick, John and Mick lineup. Instead, Mick did the unthinkable... the almost unforgiveable... he tried to replace Stevie Nicks! He can deny it all he wants to, but it was no mere coincidence that he enlisted this new member who was a cute blonde chick singer who stood center stage. He failed to grasp then what he now knows the hard way- Stevie Nicks cannot be replaced. Period. Ask any Chiffonhead. There are just some things in the world that you just don't f*** with. You just don't f*** with Mama!

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

I guess I just fail to see how the Time chapter qualifies as forward movement or natural progression. To me it just seems utterly formulaic.

"A pretty blond front woman brought us fame before? Let's get another!"

"Bluesy music is how Fleetwood Mac got started? Let's capitalize on that!"

To me, the entire Time era just seems utterly contrived. If it was truly a step forward and a new beginning, the Time lineup would have come out with a new sound, a new look, they wouldn't have recruited random past members, or put a pretty blond girl out front in a shawl to sing Gold Dust Woman. I guess I just fail to see how a certain subset of folks on this board pan chiffonheads for their blind allegiance to Stevie, when they give the Time incarnation of the band the exact same latitude. It's pure hypocrisy. The whole Time experiment failed because it wasn't genuine, period. Yes, Fleetwood Mac is known for it's lineup changes... but by the time Time was released their image and persona was frozen in the public's mindset. There were no rebirths left in Fleetwood Mac.

The bottom line for me? Fleetwood Mac's namesake members have dismissed the Time incarnation... that's all I need to hear.

I think new members were brought in for different reasons in the early 70s - generally non-musical reasons. I don't know if Bekka was supposed to be a direct Stevie-replacement - after all, the only thing they had in common was that they were both blonde and cute. It was a bad idea to have her sing Stevie's songs - I don't really see the point in that. But at that time, Chris wasn't there, and maybe it seemed odd not to have any girls in the band. I'd say that it was more cock-up than conspiracy - it sounds like a risky idea that didn't work on the grounds that it wasn't popular with the existing fans. It worked musically as a standalone thing, but yes, Mac had gone too far along the Rumours road for anything else to really catch on. So that's why Mac are where they are. Incidentally, they have all but dismissed the '70-'74 incarnations as well - I'd say because there's no money in it.

[tilthefirefades]

If the Behind The Mask and Time lineups were so progressive, unique, or even great, why didn't they last? Because the fans wanted Stevie, Lindsey, and Christine, hence The Dance's success. No matter what anyone says, without Stevie, there is no Fleetwood Mac. In the real world, outside of The Ledge, and outside of hardcore fans, the only song that people will always know is Landslide. Then you have some people that know Dreams, Gold Dust Woman, and Go Your Own Way. Then you have even less people that know Don't Stop and maybe Gypsy or Hold Me. I know this because at my job, Gypsy or Don't Stop will play and I'm all "omg!!!" and they give me blank stares. I say "Fleetwood Mac?", and their response is "Oh..". I am in no way saying that Stevie is the most important, most talented, or most anything other than that she has become Fleetwood Mac.

Also, I would say Oh Well is much more tired than Rumours.

[SuperFleetwood]

i kinda liked btm and time, i liked christines song, nights in estoril!

[elle]

Originally Posted by tilthefirefades

the only song that people will always know is Landslide.

Uhmm - can it be b/c of Dixie Chicks version? If you check youtube comments it seems that many people were saying "oh, I didn't know this was FM song!"

Originally Posted by tilthefirefades

Then you have some people that know Dreams, Gold Dust Woman, and Go Your Own Way. Then you have even less people that know Don't Stop and maybe Gypsy or Hold Me.

Everywhere? Little Lies? The Chain? Tusk/USC? SHN seems to be used as a background for everything and everywhere these days...

[elle]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Although it is far from perfect the SYW album was perhaps the most far-reaching, ambitious album they've ever released, and Lindsey takes full credit or blame for this, depending on how you look at it. Other than the title track, I don't think there is a single song on that album that could have fit on Rumours.

Agree! Although I'd say Thrown Down could be Rumours-fitting song too.

[elle]

Originally Posted by MacShadowsBall

I'm more of a Christine / Stevie fan. Judging by the results of the battle of the songs so far, most Ledgies seem to agree. Lindsey's songs have yet to win an album battle.

I find the song battle interesting and more of a reflection of the numbers of Stevie's fans vs Lindsey's and other fans on the Ledge (just look at the number of Stevie threads vs others), which can probably be safely generalized beyond the Ledge as also reflected in their US solo sales numbers over the years.
According to the charts you qouted, Christine was the biggest hit-maker of the band providing all those slick pop songs (I've heard somebody's opinion that she is McCartney of the Mac), and I haven't seen that refelected in the battle of the songs so far - although it seems that Little Lies finally has a chance.

[iamnotafraid]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Well, when Peter Green left the band, they really had no choice but to carry on as Fleetwood Mac due to contractual obligations. And it seems that, in the past, whenever Fleetwood Mac changed its lineup, it was done in small increments for the sake of continuity- a member here, a member there, etc. I think the next logical step after BTM would have been a Chris, Billy, Rick, John and Mick lineup. Instead, Mick did the unthinkable... the almost unforgiveable... he tried to replace Stevie Nicks! He can deny it all he wants to, but it was no mere coincidence that he enlisted this new member who was a cute blonde chick singer who stood center stage. He failed to grasp then what he now knows the hard way- Stevie Nicks cannot be replaced. Period.

Good work HejiraNYC. If that's what Mick did, and it seems to be true,
to replace Stevie with another hot blonde (notice I did say hot - talented
too) was a big mistake. If I wanted to see an impersonator I could pick
one of the thousands of Elvi (yes, Elvi) to go and see. It would have been
better to not sing the Stevie hits with Bekka.

What puzzles me is that when Lindsey quit the band before they headed
out on the Tango Tour, what happened to the concert goers who didn't have
the benefit of knowing Mr. Buckingham had called it quits?

I remember hearing about it on Entertainment Tonight. You know the days
before the internet! I think I would have been both mad and sick to find out
at the show the creative driving force behind the Mac wasn't showing up. Even
though at the time I was more a Stevie fan than Lindsey.

Same situation with the other light version of the Mac. I believe I heard they
were coming to New Orleans to put on a show (or somewhere in that region).
Again I would have been sick to find out that Lindsey and Stevie weren't apart
of this. Wonder how many people walked out after they found out the stars
weren't there?

[MacShadowsBall]

Originally Posted by elle

I find the song battle interesting and more of a reflection of the numbers of Stevie's fans vs Lindsey's and other fans on the Ledge (just look at the number of Stevie threads vs others), which can probably be safely generalized beyond the Ledge as also reflected in their US solo sales numbers over the years.
According to the charts you qouted, Christine was the biggest hit-maker of the band providing all those slick pop songs (I've heard somebody's opinion that she is McCartney of the Mac), and I haven't seen that refelected in the battle of the songs so far - although it seems that Little Lies finally has a chance.

Christine basically provided 2 hits for each Rumours era album.

As far as the "Battle of the Songs" goes, Christine is doing very well in the Pre-Rumours era and won the Behind the Mask battle. So she is providing good competition. Actually she might end up with more winners that Stevie! Poor Lindsey though - he'll have at least 1 song maybe 2, if he wins the Say You Will battle.