Greenie live in February

[dansven]

Originally Posted by snoot

Well my choice of words simply reflect what I have witnessed on stage, and how I've felt (and still feel) about it.

Do you remember when Peter walked off? It must have been in the 80s, right? Not with the Splinter Group?

Originally Posted by snoot

Even in the studio, it's difficult to tell where Snowy or Nigel or brother Mick (et al) end, and Pete begins.

Well, when it comes to guitar solos I've never had any trouble spotting Peter .. the only exception being a couple of tracks on "In The Skies". On the rest of the 80s albums it's mainly Peter on lead. With the Splinter Group it was easy, because Peter and Nigel had very different styles. If you go waaaay back on this forum there are threads where we "solve" the guitar issues of the SG records, and I'd say we are 99.9 percent correct

Originally Posted by snoot

No that's not what I meant. I was simply referring to anyone who might be lurking or visiting the Ledge as a (non-signed-in) "guest." No "good guy" or "bad guy" connotations are implied at all. Keep in mind our posts are spidered and indexed into various search engines, including the mother of them all Google. Lots of folks end up reading these comments without ever having set foot directly at the forum.

Yes, thanks for clearing this up. I wasn't sure what you meant.

Originally Posted by snoot

Now if you want a little more fun and angst, try visit this thread. Not sure if you happened upon it yet, but we had a great time mashing on that one, even if it went well beyond a discussion of PG's blues.

Interesting Read
http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?t=38213

Haha, thanks. You know, I did read you guys at the time, but I never had the time to join!

[snoot]

Everyone who contributed to this thread has made at least one good point, even if they're not all in perfect agreement. After all, there's only so much we know.

The last time I saw PG in person was during the early 80's, so yes it has been a while. Saw him twice during that time (and yes I am aware of Pete's relapse shortly thereafter). Each time it damn near ripped my heart out. Not because I didn't know the storyline, or because I set my expectations too high. It's just I couldn't put the most basic points together, or tell if Peter even wanted to be there. This didn't make me think less of the man, as he had already achieved icon status, something most artists can only dream of. But it did leave me with a lot more questions than answers, starting with: was he was doing this for others, or were others were doing this for him?

I think there is a general consensus that Greenie did considerably better later, and may still be doing pretty good as we speak. I've seen selected video clips that seem to bear this out. If he is enjoying himself, then few things matter more, as has been stated. But even into the nineties, I've seen footage and read interviews where he doesn't seem to be fully in prime time. Maybe that, weighed against what I witnessed earlier, helps create the end image that I'm no longer certain what to expect (aka WYSIWYG). Peter does have a lot of pride; after all, he made his name as a trailblazer and top notch blues guitarist. But I'd be a lot more comfortable knowing he isn't being used or played, and this suspicion was compounded when I saw PG walk away from the stage but once again in recent years after many things seemed to be going his way. Only this time, it wasn't exit stage left as before, but back into retirement.

Whether this was from burnout, or a lack of motivation, or his medication(s) getting in the way, I'm not sure. But even with his resurgence in the Splinter Group, the fact that that unit released nine albums in less than that many years sort of hints of a money grab to me. And if there is one thing we ALL know, Peter isn't into green manalishi! I don't mean to cast aspersions recklessly, as those closest around him have also clearly helped him. In fairness, I suppose this remains a two way street in a number of ways, and any of those profiting off of his name and talent at this point may deem it to be perfectly fair and justifiable, since they comprise his inner circle and support arm, and do what they can to keep him in good stead. C'est la vie.

As for his newfangled style, I agree with many here that Peter has always understood, clearer and more poignantly than most, that less is often more. Then again, this same approach goes back to his Mayall and Mac days too, though things often ramped to more fiery levels in those supercharged days. That's not to say I don't appreciate the riff graffiti of Alvin Lee, or the clear-as-bell tones of Eric Johnson, or the acoustic fretwork of Tommy Emmanuel, or the lit fuse of Stevie Ray Vaughan now and again. But there is also clearly a time and place for the tasteful paucity of a Peter Green, or syncopated phrasing of a Harvey Mandel. In that regard, to each their own as it's all good.

[snoot]

Originally Posted by dansven

Well, when it comes to guitar solos I've never had any trouble spotting Peter .. the only exception being a couple of tracks on "In The Skies". On the rest of the 80s albums it's mainly Peter on lead. With the Splinter Group it was easy, because Peter and Nigel had very different styles. If you go waaaay back on this forum there are threads where we "solve" the guitar issues of the SG records, and I'd say we are 99.9 percent correct

I'm not so sure about those "solvings" my friend. I'm 99.9 percent certain you and others may be fooling yourselves with such clarity. Snowy and Nigel have both mastered the art of imitation, it's been part of their jobs. That trump card can be pulled out as needed. I won't try to debate on just how much of PG you're hearing at any given time in the post Mac recordings, but trust me it's not always as black and white as it may seem, and far from a duckshoot to decipher. Those who think it is are into wishful thinking. The same can be said for Danny Kirwan years earlier, who possessed the talent to trade licks with - and imitate in many ways - Pete at the end. Did you see the reaction I got when I parlayed that notion in an earlier thread here? There are folks who still think that the lion's share of what they're hearing on Then Play On is PG, when in fact it isn't.

I realize many don't appreciate or understand how good Danny had gotten by the end, since he has traditionally been relegated to taking up space in Peter's shadow, with both the public at large and per many music critics. He first took to Green as something of a mentor, but also brought a prodigious arsenal of his own to the table. As time went on, Danny enjoyed getting in Peter's face at times, his head really, so there was part intimidation, part rivalry, part compliment and part admiration going on all at once. The two came to rely on each other, hinged in a competitive framing, but it brought out the best in each. Some have tried to portray DK's role as being that of a convenient foil, but it was far more than that, and far closer to a push-n-pull partnership. When PG went down, part of DK went with him. That match made in heaven went the way of the inferno instead.

[doodyhead]

I, for one have no trouble telling peter and danny apart. even in their trade-offs in like it this way. Snowy was a harder one as snowy had a much more mikly touch and a more similar player. With Nigel, I am sorry to say that even on his best days, he ain't got it.

The only time I was seriously confused about Peter was, :
1 on the In the Skies because I refused to believe (at the time) that someone else would be doing the Solos. Even when it said it on the album I thought it was a misprint
2 On Whatcha Gonna Do, Little Dreamer and Kolors: The guitar playing was so out of character for the some of the solo's. Again, in my Petocentrism, I wondered if he had styles of playing that I just had not hear before. Again we know now that they had players with him, in the event that Peter melted into the rhythm section.

This is not for a moment to downplay Dannys virtuosity and ability to blend with Peter. Their duets are sublime. It's like the Andrew Sisters.
Maybe Snowy is Laverne

doodyhead

[snoot]

Originally Posted by doodyhead

This is not for a moment to downplay Dannys virtuosity and ability to blend with Peter. Their duets are sublime. It's like the Andrew Sisters.

Maybe Snowy is Laverne

Doody, only you can bring a smile so quick.

[JonsonP]

Originally Posted by doodyhead

With Nigel, I am sorry to say that even on his best days, he ain't got it.

As a solid gig-worthy guitarist Nigel does a fair job, but when it comes to trying to emulate PG's FM sound it just doesn't come close. When he plays his own solo's in his own style I actually prefer it, whereas most of those BMW, Green Manalishi attempt's are actually pretty average and eventually become annoying! But of course trying to copy PG isn't exactly the easiest task!

[doodyhead]

Originally Posted by JonsonP

As a solid gig-worthy guitarist Nigel does a fair job, but when it comes to trying to emulate PG's FM sound it just doesn't come close. When he plays his own solo's in his own style I actually prefer it, whereas most of those BMW, Green Manalishi attempt's are actually pretty average and eventually become annoying! But of course trying to copy PG isn't exactly the easiest task!

Agreed that when Nigel plays his own style. But what is his own style?

He is a fairly competent Robert Johnson imitator.
The songs of his that I like the best are the ones that he doesn't try to imitate anyone.

For example: his one about overeating

vinnie

[Ms Moose]

Originally Posted by doodyhead

For example: his one about overeating

vinnie

Which one is that?

Ms Moose

[dansven]

Originally Posted by snoot

But even with his resurgence in the Splinter Group, the fact that that unit released nine albums in less than that many years sort of hints of a money grab to me. And if there is one thing we ALL know, Peter isn't into green manalishi!

Haha, I like your "manalishi" comment. Yeah, nine albums is a lot.. but I guess it also means that Peter's health in the late 90s and early 2000s has been enormously improved, compared to his days with Kolors. Splinter Group's work load and touring could never have happened in the 80s.

And I guess it's a give-and-take situation really. I mean: Where would Nigel be today without Peter? And where would Peter be today without Nigel?

Originally Posted by snoot

I'm not so sure about those "solvings" my friend. I'm 99.9 percent certain you and others may be fooling yourselves with such clarity. Snowy and Nigel have both mastered the art of imitation, it's been part of their jobs. That trump card can be pulled out as needed. I won't try to debate on just how much of PG you're hearing at any given time in the post Mac recordings, but trust me it's not always as black and white as it may seem, and far from a duckshoot to decipher. Those who think it is are into wishful thinking. The same can be said for Danny Kirwan years earlier, who possessed the talent to trade licks with - and imitate in many ways - Pete at the end.

Ah, I bet you haven't even bothered to look up those posts!!
Peter's approach is unique!! Mayall said recently that he's one of few players who only have to take a couple of notes, to be recognized. It's true!!!
Nigel Watson?!?! A former plumber (or whatever)?!?! As Vinnie said: "...he ain't got it." Their guitar styles are as different as their voices.
This sort of thing always puzzles me... if people can't distinguish Peter Green from any other guitar wannabe ... then what's the big thing about Peter Green then?? Why would he be so special then to those people???

It always bothers me to read album reviews that go like this:
Peter Green really does a great guitar solo on You'll Be Sorry Someday..." Those reviewers haven't got a clue, as he doesn't play guitar solo on that track.
So, name any SG track, and I'll tell you who's who!

I get the impression you admire Danny more than Peter. And I agree, Danny needs much more recognition! Though, as much as I really adore Danny (both as guitar player and songwriter), I always find that Peter is dimentions above him! As for them trading licks, I've no trouble identifying who's who! The two have completely different styles!! True, they both developed until the "end" in 1970, but I have most bootlegs from that era and the two are actually very different! Listening to bootleg live recordings of for example Rattlesnake Shake/Madge Jams ... you can always identify who's taking lead and who's doing rhythm .. same when they're trading licks!

Btw Snoot, that's a wonderful photo!! Never seen it!! Thanks a lot!!

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by dansven

I get the impression you admire Danny more than Peter. And I agree, Danny needs much more recognition! Though, as much as I really adore Danny (both as guitar player and songwriter), I always find that Peter is dimentions above him!

Oh no! Here we go again, and I'm not helping this time! I'll be cheering you on from the sidelines.


Howabout a Mike Bloomfield vs. Peter Green debate instead?

[dansven]

Originally Posted by slipkid

Oh no! Here we go again, and I'm not helping this time! I'll be cheering you on from the sidelines.

Hahah, thanks! You know, I didn't take part in that last discussion, so I'll have a go here!!

[dino]

I think we enthusiastic...obsessive Greeny fans on The Ledge recognise Peter's playing better than most music journalists. Splinter Group - no problem at all, really. Snowy White is a really good imitator (and beyond) though. "Seven Stars" - still wondering if that is Peter or Snowy.

[Blue Horizon]

Hmmm a really interesting thread this one...........anyway here's my take on post Mac Peter Green.
Like some of you lucky people I lost count of the number of times I saw FM with Peter at the helm and when my guitar hero called it a day with the Mac I was devastated to say the Least!
The last gig I went to before Peter really started to show outward signs that all was not well health wise was the 1970 Bath festival when he joined John Mayall. The Bootleg recording of that gig is awful but I can assure you the band and Pete's guitar playing was outstanding.
Fast Forward to the early 80's and Peter's first proper comeback gig was at the Golden Lion Pub in Fulham, London. The Place was packed out as you can imagine but alas what a disappointment it turned out to be for all those Punters who came to see PG as they remembered him with FM. The Guy was totally out of it and should never have been on the stage....I felt so sorry for him and came away from the place feeling angry that the people around him at that point in time were using him and his legacy to their advantage and had completely disregarded his mental state and health.
I cannot recall how long it was before I had the next opportunity to see 'my guitar hero' but I just had to go with the hope that what I witnessed at the Golden Lion was a One Off....bad day at the office type thing. This Gig was at the Tolworth community centre (South West London/Surrey) and what a transformation! Peter for better not worse (high on something or totally clean?) was on FIRE that night with his guitar chops and vocals well and truely nailed. I remember him playing and singing a stunning 'Need Your Love so Bad' and 'Man of the World'. I really could not believe the difference between these two gigs...chalk and cheese as they say in the uk.... but I was a very happy guy that night as 'my hero' was back on track or so I thought at the time..........
The Next time I saw PG was with Kolours at (I think) The Astoria Theatre in Victoria London. I wont dwell on the details to much but just to say that it was a repeat of the Golden Lion gig. Peter during one number stepped on his guitar lead and pulled the Jack plug from his guitar and continued to play without realising that nobody could hear anything.....it was so sad to see him totally out of it. Also he did leave the stage soon afterwards during one song leaving the band to conclude the number and the concert. No encores or a return to the stage for any of them that night.
I think the above highlights the thoughts of some that during the early 80's you never knew what you were going to witness when you went to see PG and for me during this time he became an enigma.....but also someone who I still wanted to support and see whenever I could. Now in hindsight I totally understand what was happening to the guy thanks to Martin Celmins, the BBC 'Hard Road' documentary, Man of the World dvd and the likes of you lot out there in Penguin Land.

Now as far as Danny Kirwan's guitar playing.
I can usually tell the difference between Peter's and Danny's playing but I do recall going to see the Mac one night at a gig in London when they decided to give 'Need Your Love so Bad' an airing....I was coming back from a bathroom break and they were just going into the final guitar break which Peter plays......I re-entered the hall to witness Peter give Danny the nod and Danny just stood there and played note /touch perfect the end guitar solo. Out of all the Mac gigs I went to I never ever saw that happen again. If I had not seen him play that break with my own eyes I would of sworn that it was Peter's playing.
Anyway I hope more people add to this thread and I am delighted that Peter is once again fit and well enough to play some more live music.

Stay Green everyone.

Blue Horizon.

[dansven]

Hi again Blue Horizon!
Thanks for sharing your memories.

Originally Posted by dino

I think we enthusiastic...obsessive Greeny fans on The Ledge recognise Peter's playing better than most music journalists. Splinter Group - no problem at all, really. Snowy White is a really good imitator (and beyond) though. "Seven Stars" - still wondering if that is Peter or Snowy.

Exactly! Even the guy who wrote the (incredibly boring) sleeve notes to the Peter Green Anthology box got it wrong! John Crosby doesn't have a clue writing about Don't Walk Away: "...the closing guitar solo into a thing of wonder as Green's guitar soars away into the kind of cosmic narrative he first exhibited on The Supernatural."
Wrong!! Peter's playing the acoustic guitar solo in the middle. It's Nigel pouring out his poor soul at the end!

And yes, "Seven Stars" is difficult...

Btw didn't the Salvo people say that the booklet would contain photos of Peter's own drawings and artwork? I seem to remember that they wrote in another post that Peter had given them some drawings.. I could be wrong...

[doodyhead]

Originally Posted by Ms Moose

Which one is that?

Ms Moose

Nigel has own way with things. I am sure that if he dug deep he would have his own style. It seems however that he does not improvise very well.
Thanks for everything, Ms Moose
vinnie