FM's original "four song demo"

[BklynBlue]

File under: wondering out loud -

I'd like to throw this one out to the group, see if anyone has any thoughts on it -
In the interview that opens the booklet for the "Complete Blue Horizons Sessions 1967 - 1969" Mike Vernon mentions a four song demo recorded for consideration at Decca -
My interpretation of the conversation between him and Green that follows is that the four songs were recorded, rejected, and then Spencer was brought on board -
Of the ten songs recorded at the end of 1967 that are listed in the booklet as "exact recording date not known" - only four have the three man line-up of Green, McVie and Fleetwood:

"Rambling Pony No. 2"
"Looking For Somebody"
"No Place To Go"
"Drifting"

I would propose that these were the four tracks submitted to Decca - (fully acknowledging that I have no possible way knowing)

Anybody care to venture a guess? Even better, if you have information from some other source that would prove or disprove this theory, I'd be grateful if you'd share -

[sharksfan2000]

Bklyn Blue, I have a different take on that interview. It doesn't seem to me that it implies the demo was recorded before Jeremy was on board. It just states that Peter (not Decca) turned down the distribution deal they were offered as a result of the demo since they were trying to distance themselves from the Bluesbreakers (who were on Decca). Mike Vernon adds that Peter's original idea was for a 3-piece band, but it doesn't seem to me that he's saying demo was recorded pre-Jeremy. Even if it was, wouldn't it have been Bob Brunning on bass and not John McVie?

Even so, Mike Vernon does mention in the interview that the demos "just featured three of you", so you could very well be right about those four songs being the demo songs.

[BklynBlue]

Thanks for your comments.
That's really what I was looking for.
I don't know that any "hard evidence" exists to prove or disprove any of the guesses, but just to hear another point of view allows for a different perspective -
One of my problems with the booklet is that some things are not, (to me, maybe I just don't get it) clear, or in the case of the Decca demos, seemingly flat out contradictory -
i.e.: in the interview (pg 1) MV (speaking to Green): "Which was why you even turned down the deal we got offered with Decca - John's label - after recording that four-track demo EP."

In the foreword, Mike Vernon writes (pg 3)"...my career as a staff producer at The Decca Record Co. Ltd. came to an end as a direct result of that company declining to sign Peter Green's new band."

Could the implication be that Decca would have signed them if Green had agreed to fit a particular mold that they had specified?
So in effect, they turned down Green's idea for the band, and Green turned down their "narrow" offer?
Please understand, I'm just throwing out different ideas here to see if any stick -

The reason I narrowed the demos down to the ones that McVie played on, without Jeremy, is again, due to the info in the booklet, which may be nothing more than a typo - "Fleetwood Mac" and "First Train Home" are listed as having been recorded in August -
the text for Chapter Six, also implies (to me) that "Rambling Pony No. 2" was recorded at the same session as those two songs - most sources have the first two recorded in April -
My feeling is that there were two sessions - one for the first two songs, and another, in May, June (?) for the demo -
so I don't believe that the August listing is correct -
Dates when can be certain of are their debut on August 13th with Bob Brunning - and the September 9th session for the first single - again, with Brunning -
I guess those songs could have been recorded after Jeremy joined the band; the November 22nd sessions didn't have Jeremy - but I do think that if Jeremy was in the band at the time of the demos, he would have been on the tracks, and that would wipe out my first guess - which I would have no problem with -
I also don't think the demo tracks would have been destroyed or lost and I find it hard to believe, especially if they were unreleased numbers, that they would not have surfaced, legitimately or on bootleg, by now -
Sorry to have gone on so long -
Again, thanks for your thoughts, hope to see some others - I just like to turn things around and upside down, see if I spot something I may have overlooked before -

[sharksfan2000]

Should have thought to check another couple of sources before...

Mick Fleetwood's book mentions recording afer hours in the Decca studio (since Mike Vernon had a key), and states that some tracks had Bob Brunning on bass.

Bob Brunning's book goes into more detail. It also mentions the late-night recording sessions, and it sounds from the book as if they started around the time the band was rehearsing for their first gig at the Windsor Festival. He mentions his three released tracks as having been recorded at these sessions ("Long Grey Mare", "Rambling Pony", and "I Believe My Time Ain't Long"). The book makes it sound as if there was more recorded there than was ever released either on record or on the 4-song demo (he mentions recording "a great deal of material"), and it doesn't mention any recording going on prior to Jeremy joining the band. The book certainly makes it sound like the recordings used for the demo were completed prior to the band's debut gig, which means they all would have had Bob on bass.

Brunning's book goes on to say that Clifford Davis claims to own the original Decca tapes and the rights to release them, as he bought them from the Vernon brothers, but that Mike Vernon has no recollection of this deal. (BTW, I have the '98 edtion of Brunning's book, don't know whether that makes any difference).

So I don't know if that makes things any more clear or just more confusing, but take it for what it's worth

Here's a related question: exactly which tracks were recorded by Peter, Mick, and John during the session that produced the "Fleetwood Mac" instrumental? And when did that session take place? Again, there seems to be contradictory information on that. Both Mick and Bob's books make the very strange claim that "Curly" and "Rubber DucK" were recorded during the same session - seems highly unlikely unless Aynsley was there as well, and besides these two tracks are listed as being recorded in February and released in March '67. And were "Double Trouble" and "It Hurts Me Too" recorded at the same session as "Fleetwood Mac" and "First Train Home"? My guess is that they were probably recorded at a separate session around the same time in April '67, but that's only a guess. It just seems that since "Double Trouble" and "It Hurts Me Too" were "official" Bluesbreakers recordings while the other two were apparently not, it's unlikely that they came from the same session. And is it possible at all that "Fleetwood Mac" and/or "First Train Home" were part of that 4-song demo (don't know whether they would even have had access to these tapes at that time)?

[BklynBlue]

Thanks for the info from the Brunning book!
If I understand correctly, Brunning implies that his three released tracks were recorded at these clandestine "late night sessions" -
The booklet (which I wouldn't swear by) has Brunning's tracks all being recorded at the CBS studio on New Bond Street - no date is given for "Long Grey Mare" but the two tracks on the single are dated as "September 9th 1967"
In fact, all of the tracks that have a specific date are said to have been recorded at the CBS studios -
the tracks I posted as the possible demo show Vernon hedging his bets by saying it could have been one or the other -
I think the studio is significant because it would indicate that the deal had been made with CBS (unless Vernon had already been asked to leave Decca and was using the facilities to getout of paying for studio time)

I think you are right that Jeremy was in the band when the demo was recorded and to me, that makes it even more interesting if he wasn't on any of the tracks.
Was that "his choice", as they were all Green songs and he didn't want to play on them?
A demo with only Green's songs is very far from representative of the band! I find that very strange...

I doubt we'll ever get a definitive answer, but as Vernon had access to the original tape reels, and possibly any remaining paperwork that came with them, I would lean towards his dates more than Brunning's (again, being fully aware that I have do way to verify anyone's recollections of events almost forty years old!)

The sources I've found, all indicate that the two numbers in question were recorded after Mick Fleetwood sole Bluesbreaker session in the studio. The one that produced "Double Trouble" & "It Hurts Me Too"

[sharksfan2000]

It sure is tough to figure out these recording sessions when the information about them is incomplete, unreliable, and contradictory.

I'd forgotten until I took another look at Mick's and Bob's books that they both place the Bluesbreakers recordings of "Curly" and "Rubber Duck" at the same session as "Fleetwood Mac"! If that's Mick playing drums on "Rubber Duck" then I played lead guitar on "Green Manalishi"!

[BklynBlue]

thanks once more - this time for the good chuckle!

this really has been a help to me - sometimes just putting things down "on paper" to explain something helps you to see things in a new way - this came to me only after I last posted -

If we accept that the studio location listings are correct - which I would have no reason to doubt - and that my assumption that the change of studios indicates the begining of Vernon's association with CBS - (big assumption - but stick with me here) - then the idea that Jeremy's "Mean Old Fireman" and "Allow Me One More Show" are from his demo recordings goes out the window -

Vernon lists both as being recorded at CBS and says they were on the same "rouge two track tape" sent over from the CBS archives -

If Jeremy's band auditoned for Vernon, it would have been while he, Vernon was still with Decca - and most likely, Decca would own the tapes -

I'll venture another guess and say those two tracks were recorded at the same time that Jeremy did "Hellhound on My Trail" - on that same date, Green also recorded a solo acoustic number, "The World Keep On Turning" so I'm sure the mikes and levels were already set -

again, you've been most helpful and I did appreciate the laugh - hope someone else may have something to add -

[sharksfan2000]

Looking at the Complete Blue Horizon Sessions booklet, it does list the recording date of "Mean Old Fireman" as 11/22/67, same as "Hellhound On My Trail" and "The World Keep On Turning", although there is no exact date given for "Allow Me One More Show". So I think your assumption on these tracks makes a lot of sense.

Also, one correction on my part - looking again at Bob Brunning's book, he does not specifically place "Long Grey Mare", "Rambling Pony", and "I Believe My Time Ain't Long" as being recorded during the late-night Decca sessions. The books states "We certainly recorded a great deal of material. Most of it quite illegally in the middle of the night at Decca's West Hempstead studio." So there would not seem to be any particular reason to doubt the recording date and location given of 9/9/67 at the CBS studio for these three tracks. Sorry for misinterpreting that earlier.

[chiliD]

According to my well-worn copy of John Mayall's Thru The Years 2-LP set liner notes:

The drummer on "Curly", "Greeny" & "Missing You" (and I'm just assuming that "Rubber Duck" was from the same sessions) was Aynsley Dunbar.

[sharksfan2000]

Originally posted by chiliD
According to my well-worn copy of John Mayall's Thru The Years 2-LP set liner notes:

The drummer on "Curly", "Greeny" & "Missing You" (and I'm just assuming that "Rubber Duck" was from the same sessions) was Aynsley Dunbar.

Yes, there's no doubt that's Aynsley on those tracks. It just seems so bizarre to me that Mick's book could state that he played drums with the Bluesbreakers on their EP with Paul Butterfield and that "Curly", "Rubber Duck", "Double Trouble", and "It Hurts Me Too" were all recorded by the trio of Mick, John, and Peter at the same session that produced "Fleetwood Mac". There's so much obviously wrong here that one doesn't know where to begin.

Was Mick's memory that bad and the book's editing that sloppy? And then Bob Brunning's book repeats part of the same error by stating that Mick played drums on the "Curly" / "Rubber Duck" single. I was just trying to point out the difficulty of figuring out the actual dates and personnel at recording sessions for specific songs when there is bogus information like this floating around, and from band members to boot!

[SteveMacD]

Originally posted by sharksfan2000
And then Bob Brunning's book repeats part of the same error by stating that Mick played drums on the "Curly" / "Rubber Duck" single.

There are a lot of errors in Bunning's book.

[DazedPenguin]

The Martin Celmins book on Peter Green lists Fleetwood Mac and First Train Home as recorded at the 19th April 1967 Bluesbreakers session- with Peter, Mick and John (that Double Trouble/ It Hurts Me Too session mentioned above) and four tracks recorded in a September 1967 session with Green, Fleetwood, Spencer and Brunning: I Believe My Time Ain't Long, Rambling Pony, Rambling Pony #2 and Long Grey Mare.

Mean Old FireMan and Allow Me One More Show are listed as coming from a 1967 session, but no date is given.

But since the sources all borrow from each other, who knows if that's any more accurate.

[BklynBlue]

There is a tremendous amount of misinformation and just plain wrong information out there -
I think the reason that errors like the session info repeated in the Fleetwood and Brunning books, where there is a written record of who was actually at the session, is that due to the nature of the books themselves, "rock biography" / "music-rock-general info" that the publishers basically don't care - they have fact checkers, but they don't use them for these types of manuscripts -
To the publishers these books have a short shelf life and they want them out as quicly and cheaply as possible - not that they'll lower the price or anything -
their legal department probably looks them over, to make sure that nothing is said that could get them sued for slander -
Fleetwood's probably the only drummer alive who would actually want to take credit (?) for "Rubber Duck" - I'd sue

here's another from out of left field - what was the thinking behind having the Bluesbreakers record without Mayall?
Was Decca looking for their own in-house "Cream" or "The Experience"? Who's idea was it? Vernon's? Green's?
could those songs: "Curly", "Rubber Duck", "Greeny" and "Missing You" have been the four song demo?
Could the offer Decca (supposedly) made to Green that he (supposedly) turned down be that they'd pay for sessions that he would lead, and that the product would be released under the Bluesbreakers name?
I've always been curious as to why those recordings were made and released -

[SteveMacD]

Originally posted by BklynBlue
here's another from out of left field - what was the thinking behind having the Bluesbreakers record without Mayall?

Take it for what it's worth, but according to Mick's book, Mayall gave Green studio time as a birthday gift.

[sharksfan2000]

Originally posted by BklynBlue
Fleetwood's probably the only drummer alive who would actually want to take credit (?) for "Rubber Duck" - I'd sue

LOL!! Can't argue with you though!

here's another from out of left field - what was the thinking behind having the Bluesbreakers record without Mayall?
Was Decca looking for their own in-house "Cream" or "The Experience"? Who's idea was it? Vernon's? Green's?
could those songs: "Curly", "Rubber Duck", "Greeny" and "Missing You" have been the four song demo?
Could the offer Decca (supposedly) made to Green that he (supposedly) turned down be that they'd pay for sessions that he would lead, and that the product would be released under the Bluesbreakers name?
I've always been curious as to why those recordings were made and released -

Wow, that hadn't occured to me but it's an interesting theory. "Curly" and "Rubber Duck" in particular are so out of character for Bluesbreakers recordings and are so clearly going for Cream's style. Certainly seems possible that Decca looking for their own Cream and saw Peter, John, and Aynsley as their best opportunity. If that was the case, is it possible that these recordings were even done without Mayall's knowledge or approval and later released under the Bluesbreakers name when it was decided not to go ahead with the new trio? Maybe the trio was Aynsley's idea (looking for the spotlight) and that was part of the reason Mayall fired him? Wild speculation sure is fun

Mike Vernon is quoted in Bob Brunning's book in regard to the late-night sessions at Decca (presumably in August '67) saying "it was with those tapes that we managed to clinch the Blue Horizon distribution deal with CBS." But perhaps there had been an earlier and different demo presented to Decca?

Originally posted by SteveMacD
Take it for what it's worth, but according to Mick's book, Mayall gave Green studio time as a birthday gift.

I've read this account as well, but my impression was that this birthday gift studio time was just used for the "Fleetwood Mac" / "First Train Home" session with John and Mick. But it's possible those other tracks could have been recorded earlier from the gift studio time. After all, Peter's birthday had been in October so he would have had plenty of opportunity to use the studio time.