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  #16  
Old 08-23-2005, 10:45 AM
dino dino is offline
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Hello?
Can't believe that someone failed to mention Closing my eyes.
Has to be one of the saddest songs ever written, and there's stunningly
beautiful guitar parts on it.
Otherwise, Green Manalishi is amazing. Chilling. But very powerful..
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  #17  
Old 08-23-2005, 11:20 AM
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Accusations at ye olde Buckingham in the matter of ye olde tired and cliched setlists have been raised in other boards of the Ledge, so I thought I'd inappropriately answer some of them here in the Peter Green board. If you excuse me for doing that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiliD
There's only one reason they stopped playing it...Lindsey. He just has no respect for the band prior to his involvement.
Lindsey has stated that he does love "Oh Well". Linking to MadnessFades.net (third link down the page) where you will find an mp3 of a Jim Ladd Innerview which has the following dialogue about the song:
Quote:
Jim Ladd: The one thing I must compliment you on although I know it's earlier Fleetwood Mac than you were around but I thought the live version of "Oh Well" kicked ass.
Lindsey: Well we did it from time to time on stage.
JL: Boy, I mean, that is a hot track.
Lindsey: Yeah, that's a great song too.
JL: Do you like doing that song or is it...?
Lindsey: Yeah, I love that song.
Now as to Lindsey's "brat routine". He used to complain about having to do Bob Welch songs (a couple of quotes in Bob Brunning's book hint at that, even though it is odd that he reportedly only did "Hypnotized" and yet still uses a plural when he says he HATED doing Bob Welch's songs). To me it's no surprise though, since I think that Lindsey's take on "Hypnotized" adds absolutely nothing to the original; it's a professionally done version but that's that. And the same thing happened with something like "The Green Manalishi" (although I think another reason they dropped that one was because Stevie couldn't pull off those wails at the end anymore) or "Station Man", in terms of personality those do not have the same impact as the originals. Obviously Lindsey felt that he couldn't add anything of his own to those, so he preferred to leave them alone when it was possible (after the huge, cursed success of Rumours had happened). The mysticism of "Hypnotized" and "The Green Manalishi" are closely connected to Bob Welch and Peter Green, after all. Brunning's book has a quote of Lindsey not wanting to be in a cover band and that's what he must have felt Fleetwood Mac was like partially during the early days of the Rumours line-up. The only one he felt he could add his own take on was obviously "Oh Well".
But then if Lindsey so hated Bob Welch's contributions to Fleetwood Mac, it is odd that he later on worked for the retake of "Sentimental Lady" with Bob.

And about Christine's pre-1975 oldies not getting much room (after all, she did want to do "Just Crazy Love" during the Dance tour, didn't she?), if that was a huge problem to her you'd think she would have tried to fix that during the Tango In The Night and Behind The Mask tours since the person who supposedly didn't want her to do those wasn't around. But no, she just chose to play old Rumours-era favourites of hers. Which doesn't surprise me, after all she tends to think that the songs she wrote in the Rumours line-up are her artistic peak and that she's pleased with only one pre-BN album; Mystery To Me.

As to Fleetwood Mac stopping doing songs from 1967-1974 at one point, that was of course due to the success of Rumours; my understanding is that nearly all the tracks from the album have become radio standards of sorts in the USA and that obviously contributed to the setlists being centered around that album. Another thing that contributed to the static setlists was that the band members started drifting away from each other; it was no longer a bunch of friends hanging out together but it was getting closer to a bunch of business people dealing with each other out of necessity. At first it didn't affect the band interplay (since they still toured a lot), but later it did a major toll on it, especially during those five years between the Mirage and Tango In The Night tours. They were being pulled to various directions at the same time due to all that success, and because of that there was hardly any time, room or will to rehearse anything but the obvious songs (definitely no oldies) and arrange the setlist differently every night.

But then I guess some people will always prefer the blues nostalgia over the Rumours nostalgia. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

And as to Fleetwood Mac not playing "Oh Well" now, one could easily state that "Oh Well" isn't a song made for a dozen back-up musicians, but a song for a real stripped-down band. But then the song would clearly benefit from those guitar harmonies (like "Eyes Of The World" does, as ChiliD said at one point) that the back-up musicians can create. And why not play it with just the core three instrumentalists, like they did with "I'm So Afraid", "Gold Dust Woman" (with the addition of Brett Tuggle) and "Never Going Back Again"?
However, I think it's not just Lindsey's choice not to play "Oh Well". The song, after all, features quick drum rolls and uptempo playing. It is possibly difficult for Mick these days to achieve that, after all there was nothing in their live set (or on Say You Will, for that matter, although I admit I haven't heard Something Big) that had such a frenetic tempo. Actually with all the help he gets from other percussionists these days, it's not surprising that his drumming has been degenerating somewhat; Say You Will the album features pretty much standard 4/4 throughout, and as ChiliD once said, it could be anyone playing there. Who knows what's happened with his drumming between 1995-2003, but it sure doesn't seem good.
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  #18  
Old 08-23-2005, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by face of glass
Actually with all the help he gets from other percussionists these days, it's not surprising that his drumming has been degenerating somewhat; Say You Will the album features pretty much standard 4/4 throughout, and as ChiliD once said, it could be anyone playing there. Who knows what's happened with his drumming between 1995-2003, but it sure doesn't seem good.
Back when Taku was posting to Usenet (pseudonymously), this is what he said about how Mick's playing had degenerated by that point (2003):

"I'm on the tour and it is an issue. Unfortunately it doesn't get mentioned to Mick too often since it makes him self-conscious. But, yes, there are issues with the time. It's not bad... he is just an emotional drummer. If he is excited, it speeds up. If he digs in and plays, as he calls it, "greasy" it tends to slow down a bit. Everyone on stage accomodates without any problems, though. It was an issue with Lenny Castro, though, and he would get quite frustrated. If you were to ask any drummer in the business to see a show on this current tour, they would say the same thing about the time. ... His time has a tendency of rushing and dragging depending on his energy. Great drummer, great feel, but not always the best at timekeeping in the true sense of the word. Ask anyone on the tour."
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  #19  
Old 08-23-2005, 12:38 PM
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I think Lindsey was being patronizing in that Jim Ladd interview.

Quote:
He used to complain about having to do Bob Welch songs (a couple of quotes in Bob Brunning's book hint at that, even though it is odd that he reportedly only did "Hypnotized" and yet still uses a plural when he says he HATED doing Bob Welch's songs)....

...But then if Lindsey so hated Bob Welch's contributions to Fleetwood Mac, it is odd that he later on worked for the retake of "Sentimental Lady" with Bob.
There WAS a point where "Sentimental Lady" WAS in Fleetwood Mac's set around the time that Lindsey hooked up with Bob for the French Kiss remake. So, that's where the plural probably comes in. And, there was a time when they'd done Bob Welch's "Angel"...but all reports I've heard of that have been that Christine took the lead vocal on it.

Quote:
Obviously Lindsey felt that he couldn't add anything of his own to those, so he preferred to leave them alone when it was possible (after the huge, cursed success of Rumours had happened). The mysticism of "Hypnotized" and "The Green Manalishi" are closely connected to Bob Welch and Peter Green, after all.
Quote:
Brunning's book has a quote of Lindsey not wanting to be in a cover band and that's what he must have felt Fleetwood Mac was like partially during the early days of the Rumours line-up.
So, what?!? Play the damned songs...he JOINED Fleetwood Mac...a band with a history, maybe it didn't have the success of what they were to achieve with him, but still they had a history and a fairly decent fan base...and a fan base in which many were alienated by Lindsey's lack of respect. The concept Lindsey failed, and continues to fail, to grasp is that he's Fleetwood Mac's guitarist, and as such, there are Fleetwood Mac songs that should be played..."Hypnotized" & "Oh Well" are just two FINE examples, there are more...to whine & complain about playing them is just plain juvenile.

Sure, if he's doing a solo tour, I don't expect to hear ANY Fleetwood Mac songs of ANY era...if he does his own FMac compositions, all the better. But, if he's touring as a member of Fleetwood Mac, I expect to hear Fleetwood Mac songs from throughout the life of their existence, not just tunes from a particular member's involvement.

Big contradiction in logic: If Lindsey doesn't want to be in a cover band, then why is he recording Rolling Stones, Bob Dylan, & Donovan tunes? Gee, those are "covers"? Why not "cover" (although I'm not in total agreement of even my own usage of the term in this case) Fleetwood Mac songs while touring as a member of Fleetwood Mac??

AND, furthermore...if they keep hammering away at 30 year old tunes from Rumours like they do, they might as well classify themselves as "an oldies band"...cuz they SURE as hell aren't promoting their current material, either. I'll just bet Lindsey would LOVE to be considered a member of an OLDIES band.

Ok...enough talk of Lindsey in the Peter Green board. My apologies.
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Last edited by chiliD; 08-23-2005 at 04:34 PM..
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  #20  
Old 08-23-2005, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dino
Hello?
Can't believe that someone failed to mention Closing my eyes.
Has to be one of the saddest songs ever written, and there's stunningly
beautiful guitar parts on it.
Otherwise, Green Manalishi is amazing. Chilling. But very powerful..
I love Closing My Eyes. I should've mentioned it!


A little bit OT but--Does anyone remember about 10 yrs ago there was an internet rumour going around that Peter had died? I remember playing Closing my Eyes a bunch of times and crying. i was so glad to finally hear that Greeny was still alive!!!

-Lis
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  #21  
Old 08-23-2005, 04:17 PM
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Man Of The World.
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  #22  
Old 08-23-2005, 05:17 PM
GateandGarden GateandGarden is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharksfan2000
"Underway" is one of my favorites as well, but it is since it was extracted from a studio jam (the entire jam is on Vaudeville Years), I don't know that it qualifies as one of Peter's songs.
I didn't know that! Thanks! That's one of the many albums I don't yet have, so now I look forward to getting it.
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  #23  
Old 08-23-2005, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharksfan2000
"Underway" is one of my favorites as well, but it is since it was extracted from a studio jam (the entire jam is on Vaudeville Years), I don't know that it qualifies as one of Peter's songs.
Hmmmm...if Vaudeville Years had stayed in the can, the TPO version of "Underway" would be all you'd know. It sounds like a complete song in that form...and since Peter was the instigator of that melody regardless of "Jam" origins, I'd consider it "his".
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  #24  
Old 08-23-2005, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiliD
Hmmmm...if Vaudeville Years had stayed in the can, the TPO version of "Underway" would be all you'd know. It sounds like a complete song in that form...and since Peter was the instigator of that melody regardless of "Jam" origins, I'd consider it "his".
Yeah, I'd thought the same thing, and it's a good point. It's a close call on this one as to whether it's one of Peter's songs or a more collective effort. From what I've read, Peter did the Then Play On editing and mix for "Underway", and the mix is quite different from the "raw" version on Vaudeville Years. Particularly when Peter starts in on the main melody, his guitar is much more prominent relative to Danny's in the TPO mix than in the original. It would be interesting to know whether this was a truly spontaneous jam, or whether parts of it had been worked out to any extent beforehand.
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  #25  
Old 08-23-2005, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiliD
The concept Lindsey failed, and continues to fail, to grasp is that he's Fleetwood Mac's guitarist, and as such, there are Fleetwood Mac songs that should be played...
And yet, Lindsey sees no irony in Fleetwood Mac doing a Buckingham Nicks song...
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  #26  
Old 08-24-2005, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiliD
...he JOINED Fleetwood Mac...a band with a history, maybe it didn't have the success of what they were to achieve with him, but still they had a history and a fairly decent fan base...and a fan base in which many were alienated by Lindsey's lack of respect.
Most of that fan base was alienated because the Rumours line-up were pidgeonholed to be soft-rock, or lite-pop, or whatever (which I think was inaccurate; listen to any live recording from 1979-82 in its entirety and that assumption is proven to be mostly wrong). A significant number of fans had already deserted ship after the departure of Peter Green (Kiln House may have sold well, but the albums released between 1971-74 initially didn't) so surely Lindsey's "lack of respect" isn't responsible for all of that.

You've seen a few quotes of Lindsey appreciating Then Play On and "Oh Well" throughout the years (a search at BLA finds some of them anyway). Unlike you, I do not see him showing a complete disregard to the past of Fleetwood Mac.
Quote:
Big contradiction in logic: If Lindsey doesn't want to be in a cover band, then why is he recording Rolling Stones, Bob Dylan, & Donovan tunes? Gee, those are "covers"? Why not "cover" (although I'm not in total agreement of even my own usage of the term in this case) Fleetwood Mac songs while touring as a member of Fleetwood Mac??
In my opinion he did very new twists on "Love Minus Zero/No Limit", "Here Comes The Sun" and "Try For The Sun", they are atmospherically unlike the original versions and that's how Lindsey usually communicates through his music; with all those atmospheres that he achieves through his layering of various tracks.
About the Rolling Stones songs, I guess I can give you that one (although we still haven't heard all of "I Am Waiting"), those aren't changed too much from their original beginnings. But it's not certain how many of those he would have even wanted to release; the tracklist of GOS that David first received contained THREE of them and that seemed very excessive on a single album. But then we don't know if some of the songs on the tracklist were just suggestions; after all, 17 tracks is a lot for a single album.
Now considering things like "Hypnotized"; most fans seem to think that Lindsey doesn't sound right doing the song and they consider it Bob Welch's property. I agree with that, and therefore I understand why Lindsey wanted to drop it; he couldn't add anything that was significantly his own to the song, and therefore it's not the same case as with those Dylan/Donovan/Harrison covers, which he totally makes his own, IMO. And I'd rather hear an "Oh Well" from 1969-1990 (I haven't unfortunately heard an entire Time tour bootleg) than a lackluster "Oh Well" from 1997-2004, period. If he feels he can't add anything of importance to "Oh Well" anymore, it is his right to leave it in peace.
And as to the band dropping "Oh Well" from the setlist, I still don't think Lindsey is all to blame; I think the band has been alienating itself from its past for a long time to come anyway. It plays the songs in its setlist that have always been the most easily negotiable between the members; it takes a lot of concrete to be shifted in order for them to bring an old classic back into play. Rick Vito and Billy Burnette could do it, but then Rick probably joined them on the condition of getting to play some Peter Green-era songs (furthermore, how come I haven't seen you complaining of the 1987-1995 tour line-ups ignoring WELCH-era songs? It's not like they were in bad blood all that time, were they?), after all that is his favourite period of Fleetwood Mac.
Quote:
I'll just bet Lindsey would LOVE to be considered a member of an OLDIES band.
You seem to think that Lindsey of the '70s has the same mind as the Lindsey of now. Maybe he had a problem with being in an oldies act before, but now he doesn't seem too bothered by it; I'm sure he is well aware of how nostalgic the band is these days and is even somehow perversely enjoying it.
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Last edited by face of glass; 08-24-2005 at 06:00 AM..
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  #27  
Old 08-24-2005, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveMacD
And yet, Lindsey sees no irony in Fleetwood Mac doing a Buckingham Nicks song...

Oh no, I didn't want to barge in on this discussion...Anyway I must say that you have to consider Mac as being at least 2 seperate bands. After Danny, Jeremy and Peter left only the rhythm section was the original. The personality of the band is hardly in the rhythm section, although Mick is an original drummer. So I think Lindsey shouldn't have had to play any old songs, some commercial thinking obviously played a part, maybe Mick thought it was good to have some old "greatest hits" thrown in. Also, I don't care at all for Bob Welch singing Peter Green's song as he did in MK 2. What were they trying to do, pretend he was the new Greeny??Not close. Certainly similar reasons as above as the contemporary albums hardly had any hit singles.
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  #28  
Old 08-24-2005, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiliD
There's only one reason they stopped playing it...Lindsey. He just has no respect for the band prior to his involvement. A scourge on the band. I was SO glad he left...I was SO disappointed he returned.
You know, although I dont necessarily agree with all of your opinions, I will say this, I definitely respect them becasue I've never seen you come on here and just shoot your mouth off without fact to back it up.
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  #29  
Old 08-24-2005, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dino
Also, I don't care at all for Bob Welch singing Peter Green's song as he did in MK 2.

How do you feel about Danny Kirwan taking over lead vocals on "Black Magic Woman" during the Future Games/Bare Trees era? During that same time, Welch ONLY did "Oh Well"...and those two aforementioned tunes were the only Peter Green tunes in the set at the time. Welch ONLY started singing the rest of the Peter Green material when he was the only male vocalist LEFT in the band in 1974 (even still, "Jumping At Shadows"---albeit, not a Peter Green song, is closely tied to Peter---was sung during that era by Christine McVie..so out of the three tunes perceived as "Peter Green" tunes, they were evenly split between the three vocalists at the time). That whole post-Mystery To Me, pre-Buckingham Nicks era was the time frame that they were trying to hold on to ownership of the band's name due to all the litigation with Clifford Davis....fighting for their very survival as "Fleetwood Mac", so of course they were gonna pack their set with Peter Green tunes.

Peter was less than 4 years gone from the band (about 1/3 of the time between Fleetwood Mac albums these days) their fan-base still expected to hear those songs from "Fleetwood Mac", regardless of personnel (same as how I feel today...I don't care WHO is in the band...if the band's name is "Fleetwood Mac" there are certain expecations as to the material that should be played...and, no, it is NOT the Rumours album in its entirety, either) Back then the band KNEW that they had certain (for lack of a better term) "obligations" to their audience to play the older material, even though the songwriter(s) were no longer in the band.

That is one of the unique things ABOUT Fleetwood Mac; there's really not any other band that has this kind of dilemma, since MOST bands who've had a great turnover in personnel, hasn't had the turnover in songwriters/singers...the main singer/songwriter is usually the only one left.
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Last edited by chiliD; 08-24-2005 at 01:46 PM..
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  #30  
Old 08-24-2005, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiliD
'....same as how I feel today...I don't care WHO is in the band...if the band's name is "Fleetwood Mac" there are certain expecations as to the material that should be played...and, no, it is NOT the Rumours album in its entirety, either) Back then the band KNEW that they had certain (for lack of a better term) "obligations" to their audience to play the older material, even though the songwriter(s) were no longer in the band.

That is one of the unique things ABOUT Fleetwood Mac; there's really not any other band that has this kind of dilemma, since MOST bands who've had a great turnover in personnel, hasn't had the turnover in songwriters/singers...the main singer/songwriter is usually the only one left.

hey cD - i am really enjoying this thread. especially your posts

i did think of one other example where the band carried on (long) after the leader/principal songwriter left. pink floyd, who similar to fm, struggled for a a number of years before finding their bearings.

in contrast, to succeed, rather than going through personnel changes until finding the right combo, pf cast about for a new formula, eventually finding that writing about their departed leader was the trick.

i'm not suggesting that the bn-mac do an album about peter green. well maybe i am. it might be more inspiring than fm without chris....

best, zero
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