Seeds We Sow -- First Impressions

[Nico]

Originally Posted by jellyman10

Adding to my misgivings about them working together again is the fact that I really didn't like Soldier's Angel. However, I at least disliked it in a better way than the way in which I disliked what he did to her songs on SYW. So maybe there's hope!

I know you wrote a lot of other stuff, but this had to be addressed: didn't Dave Stewart produce this track and Stevie write it? LB played guitar and added his vocals but if you don't like the song it shouldn't be pinned on him. I think it's an OK song myself. Nothing that engaging. But I certainly wouldn't say it's because of Lindsey. I actually don't really like Stevie's voice on it.

think that on IYD Stevie sounds the best she's sounded since the Wild Heart and I think the reason for it is that she's found someone to work with who makes her feel like what she can bring to the party is equal to what they can bring. I think that was the basis of her working relationship with Dave and it is not something she has ever experience, except fleetingly, with Lindsey. That's why I worry that she'll go back into her shell if he gets on board producing her work again.

That's a valid concern. I guess it's up to Stevie to be an adult and manifest her concerns in words to LB. I wouldn't place all the blame on LB because Stevie isn't heard on TITN or you didn't like the way he produced her songs on SYW. If they are in a band, and she has known this man the way she claims to know him, than she should have said something if SHE didn't like the way she was being presented on the latter album. That's my opinion. I personally think her songs were very average, so I personally barely listen to any of them on that album aside from maybe 3 at most.

But perhaps an outside producer would work best then. I honestly don't care as long as Lindsey is there and I hear new Lindsey stuff. He's the source of my fandom for this band, I will not pretend otherwise. I love Stevie within the vicinity of early FM, and particularly Tusk. She's wonderful there, but I have never been fascinated by her solo stuff at all. Having her box set, I will agree the new album is certainly her best material, though she has had some gems throughout. But as mush as people complain about LB's lack of bringing anything new to the table solo-wise, how exactly has Stevie done so? Her music has that same meandering quality, mid-tempo wixed with the occasional rocker. I think perhaps in her lyrics? Maybe they have grown throughout the years, which is great.

Solo Stevie has always sold more records than solo Lindsey, but LB fans never want popular tastes to be a measure of quality (they're right, of course). So maybe that makes IYD even better!

Well, I'm not suggesting anything about "popular" am I? I was simply saying I played the album in my car on a road trip with my friends. They're NOT LB or SN or even FM fans. I had both IYD and SWS and they couldn't get into IYD at all. They couldn't stand her voice, while my friends who always mock LB thought SWS was rather impressive. I can say that, now, both of them are still claiming it's Lindsey best album.

On an aside: I do love to give examples like the above because, as you said, Stevie is and will ALWAYS BE the more popular of the two. It's just a fact. But when I see my friends being impressed by Lindsey and recognizing his incredible talents and brilliance, I have to gloat a little. He deserves it, considering all he has accomplished. Just as, for you, Steve deserves this new career resurgence. I personally don't care if LB works with FM or continues to do his solo stuff. He has continued to impress me with his albums and his live shows for years and I will happily accept whatever direction he moves in.

Also, I completely agree with YOU on the entire matter of money and LB/SN. I think it says enough with all the varied and lengthy reviews and attention LB received on his recent album- despite hardly promoting it to the extent that, say, SN promoted hers- that he isn't quite on the same level of anonymity as your average indie rocker/band. I think he loves that illusion of being an artiste with a compelling vision- and I respect that he STILL has a vision, even if it's one he's molded for himself. But the talk of money and whatnot is rater silly in the context of people releasing music who actually need the money and those who do it because they still have something to prove. I think the latter is true for LB and, sure, FM is a security blanket to allow these ventures to happen in the consistent way they have thus far. But maybe less money talk and comparisons to artists that don't have that type of security right?...I gotcha!

[Cammie]

Regina/Nico,
Spot on girls, as are the exclusive group of our Lindsey
BucKingham Admiration Society !!!!!! We enjoy his life,
his musical genius and his endearing ways! Go Lindsey!

All music is subjective.."Taking place within us/ relating
or proceeding from an individuals emotions and mind."

Oh, I should say that is from my Collegiate dictionary!

[Nico]

Originally Posted by Cammie

Regina/Nico,
Spot on girls, as are the exclusive group of our Lindsey
BucKingham Admiration Society !!!!!! We enjoy his life,
his musical genius and his endearing ways! Go Lindsey!

All music is subjective.."Taking place within us/ relating
or proceeding from an individuals emotions and mind."

Oh, I should say that is from my Collegiate dictionary!

I just always enjoy your posts because it's like a ray of sunshine drops in every time.

[sparky]

Originally Posted by Nico

I don't understand the point you're trying to make here. Are you saying that because SN has singalong songs/hooks that she outshines LB? Or are you just implying that Lindsey needs to write more songs that people can all sing along to because, frankly, I don't agree with that at all.

I'm not playing the one is better than the other game. At all. The thing with hooky writing is inherent in the work hook. It grabs people. It is infectious. That doesn't always even make a song a hit, but it provides a signature line that a song either hangs on or uses as propulsion. Plenty of songwriters cannot or will not write them. Joni rarely ever did. That's fine. LB songs rarely have one anymore - not one that grabs me anyway. I wish a few of them did.

That being said, I forgot to mention that I like Illumination quite a bit.

[sparky]

Originally Posted by jellyman10

I wouldn't go as far as you do - I don't, for example, think he's medicated. But I do think LB gives off massive hints that he has been 'fixed' mentally. Nothing wrong with that, though. I'm all for people getting help. And I will say that I don't think his 'go insane' schtick is/was a pose. I think he is/was someone who did battle inner demons. And his current speil about 'karma' and 'choices' is more revealing than I think he realises.

I have no idea if he is medicated. He just sounds like it sometimes. LOL.
And I say that because of the repetition. And the therapy speak. I'm only talking about the interviews and show patter. It reminds of twelve step talk and the way my own friends have flatly droned on after they got on depression meds. All the edges are taken off.

How this all plays out musically is paradoxically both interesting and not-interesting. The interesting bit is how narrow he's become. Narrow but deep. He says this himself, when he talks about centering on the guitar and what it can do or what he can do with it. So I guess the pleasure for the listener is in how far along LB's mining of that seam you feel you want to go.

Not very far. A little goes a long way.

Personally, I do find it repetitive in an eventually unpleasant way rather sooner than he does. And I hate - just cannot abide - what he does to his voice (and times ten when he does to Stevie's!). I swear, he actually wants to sound unhuman, and I don't want to be sung at by machines, so that's never gonna gel.

Yeah, the vocal manipulation was interesting the first few times. But now it distracts from the song. Evidently some people like it. Not me. For example I thought the initial version of Peacekeeper was great. By the time it got produced for SYW, I couldn't stand it. And the voice manipulation on Illume?
Cringeworthy. I suppose the more I think about it, the more I think that what I don't like is the production on his songs. Even when they are 'stripped down' they seem buried under atmosphere. I have no doubt he loves doing all that. Or he wouldn't do it. More power to him, really. It simply results in stuff I wish I could like and don't.

[elle]

Originally Posted by sparky

I'm not playing the one is better than the other game. At all. The thing with hooky writing is inherent in the work hook. It grabs people. It is infectious. That doesn't always even make a song a hit, but it provides a signature line that a song either hangs on or uses as propulsion. Plenty of songwriters cannot or will not write them. Joni rarely ever did. That's fine. LB songs rarely have one anymore - not one that grabs me anyway. I wish a few of them did.

That being said, I forgot to mention that I like Illumination quite a bit.

agree that it's pretty clear what is or is not a good hook, or hook at all. so i'm surprised to see that you are saying LB's most recent work doesn't have hooks (i assume you did listen to SWS). as you are saying - whether or not there's a hook is not really subjective. after UTS and less GOS (although i didn't think his newer songs on GOS had great hooks either - LRD hook sounds pretty pedestrian to me) i was saying what you are saying NOW, and i thought he either didn't want to or couldn't write good hooks anymore... but SWS - what are you listening to?!?!?! TTWLG, IOOT, Illumination, EOT, etc etc - all have at least one if not several hooks going at once (IOOT) and they are completely captivating not just to me but to most people i know who don't know or care much about LB.

on the other hand, somebody in this thread said that IYD CD is full of hooks - i'm surprised about that statement too - IYD has many long meandering songs that musically don't seem to go very far, imo, and become boring b/c they never end. when there are hooks, like in that new orleans song, they sound like something a child would write (again, just my opinion). i was thinking of grabbing Dave Stewart's CD b/c although there seems to be some similarities to IYD music there i kinda liked some of the songs better than IYD ones, and i like that "magic in the blues" song, but then i heard another one and another one, and they all just blend into one to me... gotta listen to DS BBD again more carefully, but.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by elle

TTWLG, IOOT, Illumination, EOT, etc etc - all have at least one if not several hooks going at once (IOOT) and they are completely captivating not just to me but to most people i know who don't know or care much about LB.

That's certainly true, after we got the Saban audio it was impossible to stop singing those songs. They hooked in an almost unbidden way. I was humming, "it wouldn't make any difference, we crossed the line," non-stop, practically against my will and a solid 6 songs on the album are like that.

I know what you mean about some hooks being childish. That's how I feel about Annabel Lee and it was also my problem with some of the UTS songs. For instance, I couldn't deny that CAD was catchy, but it was in a lighter way than I actually wanted to be caught.

Michele

[Fiver]

This isn't really a first impression, and I don't have anything to add here that hasn't been said but here's my take on SWS anyways;

It's a really consistent record. Like some others have said, a bit of an amalgamation of UtS & GoS with touches (and some borrowed sounds) of OotC. Not especially exciting or groundbreaking, but it's got some definite highs (for me RAB, IOOT, GTF) and no discernible lows. And I love She Smiled Sweetly. Never cared for the bootleg GoS version.


Kind of a sidenote here, but a funny thing happened because of this album. Gone Too Far really struck me for some reason, which led to loads of SWS and OotC listening last month. Cradle's still not my favorite, but I've got an unexpected new found appreciation for it. Weird.

[Fiver]

Originally Posted by michelej1

I know what you mean about some hooks being childish. That's how I feel about Annabel Lee and it was also my problem with some of the UTS songs. For instance, I couldn't deny that CAD was catchy, but it was in a lighter way than I actually wanted to be caught.

Michele

The melodies of these two songs (as well as End of Time and When She Comes Down) are a bit .. I wanna say.. 'hymn-like'? But that might not be the right word.

They remind me of songs I grew up singing in church. So I wouldn't say they had hooks, in the typical modern sense. But I like that at times.

[sparky]

Originally Posted by elle

whether or not there's a hook is not really subjective.

It may or may not be. One person's hook can be another person's annoying repeated musical phrase.

but SWS - what are you listening to?!?!?! TTWLG, IOOT, Illumination, EOT, etc etc - all have at least one if not several hooks going at once (IOOT) and they are completely captivating not just to me but to most people i know who don't know or care much about LB.

I will give it another listen. There are a few songs I have a very difficult time getting through. They are just sonically so dense and messy. I do think IOOT has some catchy hooks in it. But like many of his songs, the hook is surrounded by a big sonic mess that gets in my way. Like I am tripping over furniture in an otherwise comfortable room.

on the other hand, somebody in this thread said that IYD CD is full of hooks - i'm surprised about that statement too

IDK if I agree with that statement completely either. It has some nice ones. AL, IYD, YMBTO and to a lesser degree FWIW. But there is meandering. And I feel about GAG like I do about some LB songs - the tone of that guitar is so abrasive and annoying that sometimes I just can't listen to it. In that instance I like her attitude and parts of the melody enough to go with it. Other times it simply hurts my ears.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Fiver

The melodies of these two songs (as well as End of Time and When She Comes Down) are a bit .. I wanna say.. 'hymn-like'? But that might not be the right word.

They remind me of songs I grew up singing in church. So I wouldn't say they had hooks, in the typical modern sense. But I like that at times.

I know what you mean about two of those: Annabel Lee and When She Comes Down. One of my CD players or receivers had effects, where it would automatically change the music settings to mimic a certain sound and one of the choices was "choir." When She Comes Down has that choir element.

Annabel Lee is ritualistic to me. It's like a musical exercise, a chant. In that sense, it's religious to me as well, like a monk's recitation. That in itself has a rather hypnotic appeal, but I think of it as possessing more thought than beat.

I am very taken by Gone Too Far too. Just the tone of his voice when he says "me" after holding the word "saaaaave". It has a bleating quality that enhances the plea in the lyrics. And the beat kind of sways, it's like Hawaii, palms and water moving rhythmically. Very simple -- or simple sounding.

Michele

Michele

[jellyman10]

Originally Posted by Nico

I guess it's up to Stevie to be an adult and manifest her concerns in words to LB. I wouldn't place all the blame on LB because Stevie isn't heard on TITN or you didn't like the way he produced her songs on SYW. If they are in a band, and she has known this man the way she claims to know him, than she should have said something if SHE didn't like the way she was being presented on the latter album. That's my opinion.

[...]

Also, I completely agree with YOU on the entire matter of money and LB/SN. I think it says enough with all the varied and lengthy reviews and attention LB received on his recent album- despite hardly promoting it to the extent that, say, SN promoted hers- that he isn't quite on the same level of anonymity as your average indie rocker/band. I think he loves that illusion of being an artiste with a compelling vision- and I respect that he STILL has a vision, even if it's one he's molded for himself. But the talk of money and whatnot is rater silly in the context of people releasing music who actually need the money and those who do it because they still have something to prove. I think the latter is true for LB and, sure, FM is a security blanket to allow these ventures to happen in the consistent way they have thus far. But maybe less money talk and comparisons to artists that don't have that type of security right?...I gotcha!

Thanks for your reply, Nico. Good point about DS producing Soldier's Angel. You're right, of course, and maybe what I was getting at was one of the three tracks I really don't enjoy on IYD is the one where 'they had to get LB in to know what to do with it', and it ended up all 'raw' and 'stripped down', which are some of the components of LB's aesthetic that I feel uncertain about. I won't put it any more strongly than that, though. I'm just uncertain. I think LB and SN can sound transcendentally beautiful together, but mainly when they aim for beauty, rather than rawness. That quality you don't like in Stevie's voice on Soldier's Angel? I can't stand it either. She doesn't sound good like that, and it worries me that people in the studio thought she did.

Two other things, quickly: you're bang on about SN not communicating properly with LB during SYW. We saw it in Destiny Rules. They were both so passive-aggressive and it can only be hoped that they're over that now. Stevie is a people-pleaser BIG TIME, and that can get you through in the short term, but it leads to recriminations eventually. So I agree with you on the need for maturity.

Finally, yes, we agree on the money thing.

Loz

[jellyman10]

Originally Posted by Regina

Well, I'm a Stevie fan, too. And I love IYD. In fact, I think I've just kicked it up to #1 on her solo stuff. I can't tell you how proud I was to see her do these songs live a couple of months ago.

But, I think there is a massive amount of reflection both of them are doing at this point in their lives. And I think they've both come to understand that they can't keep doing this I love him/her-I hate him/her deal for the rest of their lives. Time does run out. I think this is something that doesn't HAVE to happen, but should. In a way, I think they might feel that Fleetwood Mac has said all it has to say, creatively, and its main purpose is now to make baby boomers feel like they are teens for a couple of hours every couple of years (or, extremely old, depending on your point of view).

And I know that must sound kind of weird considering Stevie and Lindsey are the voices of FM-but, there is a certain sound, there are two more people who could veto things. And those two people bring in people of their own... And, as much as I hate the whole Big Machine/Small Machine thing -- I don't think any of us really have an inkling of just how BIG this stuff really is and how many people are involved (with legal teams, publicity teams, yada, yada). In a way, I think this talk of Buckingham Nicks is a really, really honest attempt, on both their parts, to strip it all down to their roots. Now, whether that is truly, truly possible is completely up to how commited they will be to that goal and just how much of ego-leaving at the door BOTH of them will be willing to do. But, I think it could work on a level that none of us can imagine. And I think it's part of their process as human beings. I don't think it will harm either of their solo careers.

So, yeah, you don't have to get or like SwS at all. But don't worry about that style of music's effect on Stevie's work. I think BuckinghamNicks (NicksBuckingham?) is a whole different machine! And, more than that, I think they have genuinely wanted to get back to the place of healing their own wounds/dealing with their conflicting confusing feelings for quite some time now...and music just may be the answer. Music that they work on TOGETHER.

I really loved reading this post, Regina. Thank you. I think (and hope) you're right.

[CADreaming]

Originally Posted by Nico

I know you wrote a lot of other stuff, but this had to be addressed: didn't Dave Stewart produce this track and Stevie write it? LB played guitar and added his vocals but if you don't like the song it shouldn't be pinned on him. I think it's an OK song myself. Nothing that engaging. But I certainly wouldn't say it's because of Lindsey. I actually don't really like Stevie's voice on it.

Stevie has said Lindsey produced SA. Take that for what it's worth. He wasn't credited, but he did what a producer does best. I love the song and think it sounds harsh because it's meant to sound that way. It's supposed to be jarring -- and I think that was what Lindsey intended and what Stevie wanted to bring across that she couldn't get anyone else to understand.

[shackin'up]

I also think it is a great post, Regina. I just have one big worry: the effect of Stevie's choices in music and sound on future B/N or Mac-projects. I love alot of songmaterial on IYD, but I totally dislike the production of it. I have a feeling that Lindsey will (try to) step back some more, but I'm not sure if I will like what would come instead...