Danny ignored

[Wouter Vuijk]

Taken from the thread New Kirwan albums coming out on CD:

Bretonbanquet said (I qoute):
....I agree that the other Macsters don't seem to recognise Danny's input. Mick apparently sees Danny the most, but I'm not sure Danny trusts him not to try and send him out on a tour or something... I guess also that it was a hell of a long time ago, and memories fade - people always talk about Peter and his contribution is well documented, but Danny's time with the band is more easily forgotten since most of it was commercially unsuccessful.....

Well, I just had another look at Mick's DVD "The Mick Fleetwood Story" and I was amazed to notice that throughout his history of FM he just rarely mentioned Bob Weston, which I can understand, but failed to even make a single notice to Danny. In another interview he once mentioned that it was he who had to tell Danny to leave, and that that was one of the toughest things he ever had to do.

Why did he feel he had to ignore the meaning of Danny's presence in the band?

[bretonbanquet]

I think it's just another one of the sad enigmas of this band, that someone like Danny who contributed so much at a really difficult time is just forgotten almost completely. I know it's got nothing to do with me, I wasn't there, I don't know all the facts etc - but it would be nice to hear something mentioned from the official Fleetwood Mac machine that they recognise Danny's input and acknowledge that he's still out there having his problems.

I'm sure Danny was a nightmare to work with and to spend time with at certain points, and I'm sure there were many occasions which Mick and the others would really rather forget. But it was all over 30 years ago, and what remains is the music, which Danny was an enormous part of for a few years. People still really appreciate his music. You look at where Fleetwood Mac is now, and then you look at where Danny has been for the last 25 years and you can't help but sense a bit of an injustice, not to belittle in any way the huge contributions of Lindsey, Stevie, Christine etc.

I think a big part of the difficulties with Danny that is often overlooked is that he didn't really have much idea of how problematic he was being. I've read that when Mick fired him, he couldn't understand why he was being fired. I don't want to judge anyone, particularly guys like Mick and John whom I think are fantastic people, but I hope no-one's forgetting that Danny was ill, not just being an a$$hole.

Finally I appreciate how difficult it must be to help someone who doesn't want any help, but I do believe that Fleetwood Mac Inc. could do something to help him a bit. Sort out any royalties problems there might be, and put a Kirwan song on a live album - get Lindsey or Stevie to pick one and sing it for a few nights - just something to say "We appreciate the contribution of a former member who helped shape Fleetwood Mac, and we haven't forgotten him."

Sorry, rant over

[aleuzzi]

I agree that Fleetwood Mac, Inc. should help out Danny. How tough would it be to put him on a stipend of, say, a few 1000 pounds a month?

Danny's skills at guitar playing and arranging were superior, in many ways, to other Mac guitarists. And although Green is considered the "Green God," Danny's music more effectively moved the band from the blues setting to an accomplished rock outfit.

"Dust" is one of the forgotten classics of the 70s.

[DavidMn]

Originally Posted by bretonbanquet

I think it's just another one of the sad enigmas of this band, that someone like Danny who contributed so much at a really difficult time is just forgotten almost completely. I know it's got nothing to do with me, I wasn't there, I don't know all the facts etc - but it would be nice to hear something mentioned from the official Fleetwood Mac machine that they recognise Danny's input and acknowledge that he's still out there having his problems.

I'm sure Danny was a nightmare to work with and to spend time with at certain points, and I'm sure there were many occasions which Mick and the others would really rather forget. But it was all over 30 years ago, and what remains is the music, which Danny was an enormous part of for a few years. People still really appreciate his music. You look at where Fleetwood Mac is now, and then you look at where Danny has been for the last 25 years and you can't help but sense a bit of an injustice, not to belittle in any way the huge contributions of Lindsey, Stevie, Christine etc.

I think a big part of the difficulties with Danny that is often overlooked is that he didn't really have much idea of how problematic he was being. I've read that when Mick fired him, he couldn't understand why he was being fired. I don't want to judge anyone, particularly guys like Mick and John whom I think are fantastic people, but I hope no-one's forgetting that Danny was ill, not just being an a$$hole.

Finally I appreciate how difficult it must be to help someone who doesn't want any help, but I do believe that Fleetwood Mac Inc. could do something to help him a bit. Sort out any royalties problems there might be, and put a Kirwan song on a live album - get Lindsey or Stevie to pick one and sing it for a few nights - just something to say "We appreciate the contribution of a former member who helped shape Fleetwood Mac, and we haven't forgotten him."

Sorry, rant over

No problem. You make some really good points.

[wondergirl9847]

Yeah, I would kill to hear some live Danny Kirwan songs from SnL. They won't, but it would kick all kinds of a$$. It's wierd with he and Jeremy because I think their lifestyles overshadow their FM contributions and that's a shame.

[SteveMacD]

To be fair, it's been 34 years since Danny was booted from the band. We're fans who listen to the stuff on a frequent basis, and it has stayed with us through the years.

That isn't true for them. This is their career. They've moved on with their lives. On one level, there's always a sadness whenever Danny is discussed. It's a shame, and a waste of talent. But, on the other, Danny WAS a very difficult personality. I've not ready any comments from Jeremy regarding Danny, but look at the things Mick, John, Christine, Bob Welch, and Peter Green have said about Danny over the years.

I know I've tended to filter out people from my own career, many who had a major impact (for better or worse) on it, as years go by. I'm sure I'm not alone on that. So, I honestly can't say that I would expect any different from the others.

Ultimately, though, Danny got perhaps the ultimate tip of the hat, something NOT shown to Bob Welch, Billy Burnette, or Rick Vito, all of whom had more commercial success with Fleetwood Mac than Danny: Inclusion into the HOF as a member of Fleetwood Mac.

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

To be fair, it's been 34 years since Danny was booted from the band. We're fans who listen to the stuff on a frequent basis, and it has stayed with us through the years.

That isn't true for them. This is their career. They've moved on with their lives. On one level, there's always a sadness whenever Danny is discussed. It's a shame, and a waste of talent. But, on the other, Danny WAS a very difficult personality. I've not ready any comments from Jeremy regarding Danny, but look at the things Mick, John, Christine, Bob Welch, and Peter Green have said about Danny over the years.

I know I've tended to filter out people from my own career, many who had a major impact (for better or worse) on it, as years go by. I'm sure I'm not alone on that. So, I honestly can't say that I would expect any different from the others.

That doesn't make it right though. And since when is being a difficult personality unique to Danny? I can think of one or two people who've been just as much trouble as he was, but then Danny wasn't commercially successful enough.

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

Ultimately, though, Danny got perhaps the ultimate tip of the hat, something NOT shown to Bob Welch, Billy Burnette, or Rick Vito, all of whom had more commercial success with Fleetwood Mac than Danny: Inclusion into the HOF as a member of Fleetwood Mac.

Like that means anything at all - totally irrelevant. The RRHOF means so little over here, I can't tell you. It doesn't buy you anything.

Anyway, Mac had far more commercial success when Danny was around than they did with Bob Welch. Not to slight Bob Welch, of course. Burnette and Vito were in Mac at a time when they were able to ride the huge success of the previous years, something that no other member has enjoyed. Again, I don't mean to slight their great talent. In any case the reason why Welch, Weston, Vito, Burnette etc aren't in the RRHOF is not musical, and it has no correlation with the importance of their contributions to the band - as we've all discussed many times.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by bretonbanquet

That doesn't make it right though. And since when is being a difficult personality unique to Danny? I can think of one or two people who've been just as much trouble as he was, but then Danny wasn't commercially successful enough.

Sorry, but I'm not going to hold them to a higher standard than I would hold anybody else. It's a band, a business, not a family. I can't think of anybody who would make much contact with a former co-worker who made their lives miserable in the world outside of rock. Why should I expect Mick, John, Chris, Bob, and Peter to be any different? True, most of Danny's issues can be blamed on mental illness. They didn't know that at the time, and these people are not trained mental health professionals. They are not trained in how to deal with that.

As for the other trouble makers, the only one I can think about would be Lindsey. Stevie, save for when she quit the band during her really bad time, was always committed to the band. With Lindsey, he may have been difficult, but it was more over his creative ideas coming through the music. He wasn't throwing his guitar at people. Big difference.

Originally Posted by bretonbanquet

Anyway, Mac had far more commercial success when Danny was around than they did with Bob Welch...Burnette and Vito were in Mac at a time when they were able to ride the huge success of the previous years,

But, Danny was no more responsible for the success during the Peter Green years than Billy and Rick were during their time in Fleetwood Mac. Peter Green was already huge in Europe long before anybody had even heard of Danny Kirwan. So, really, it's the same thing. As for success, I still maintain what I said. Bob Welch had more commercial success with Fleetwood Mac than did Danny. Name ONE song of Danny's that was even a minor hit (and "Dragonfly" ceratainly does NOT count). Bob had "Hypnotized" in the US. Bob's Mac albums had much more commercial success than even the Peter Green stuff here in the US. And, Fleetwood Mac even got to play on US television TWICE when Bob was in the band. While I know you'll give the lecture on Europe, the US is where musicians go to make it big.

[BklynBlue]

[QUOTE=SteveMacD]To be fair, it's been 34 years since Danny was booted from the band. We're fans who listen to the stuff on a frequent basis, and it has stayed with us through the years.

Absolutely. Kirwan and Welch have been ignored because their songs (and the albums that they were on) had no "after-life" -
Their commercial value (please understand this has nothing to do with artistic merit) expired almost upon release.
None of their songs were ever anthologized (outside of The Chain box set) in the States - you never heard them on the radio even when the albums were first released - later, you might have come across "Sentimental Lady" or "Hypnotized" once in a great while, and I do believe I once heard "Bare Trees" played, but that was before all of the radio stations across the nation became strictly formatted.
In thirty years, none of those songs have ever been used on a movie soundtrack, or been covered by another major artist.
There are myriad reasons for this, again, few having to do with the inherent "quality" of the material.
The entire Fleetwood Mac catalog on Reprise, and even Kirwan's solo catalog has laid fallow for no other reason than no one seems to want to bother with it.
I find it very hard to believe that after all this time, no one has been able to license a single song, from any of the albums for a compilation or soundtrack -
if they (whoever holds the rights to this material) had tried, and failed, it would most likely be because no one remembers any of the songs - so those who would have to give the okay for such a deal knew that there would be no great flashback moment where the general public would go "I remember that! I used to LOVE that song! Who was that?"
The albums also never garnered any critical mass either, in the sense that no one that I have ever read has ever championed them in print and tried to bring them to wider attention.
And again, there are people who are paid to plant those seeds, to work the catalog, but it was just not done.
As to the band acknowledging their own past, doing a few of the songs in concert might have been good, maybe got some people there that night to search out the older records, if they remembered the name of the song, but I think a more appropriate approach would have been to have the band record a tune or two for the greatest hits collections - you know, the "new songs" everyone puts on GH albums now so that those who already have everything on there has to buy it anyway?
The royalties would amount to a lot more than a one time performance fee, and their fans would have a chance to really familiarize themselves with the song.

Do I think the current band owes it them to do so? No. Would it have been a nice gesture? Yes. But, we're talking about money and ego and as Steve MacD said, it is called show business for a reason.

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

As for the other trouble makers, the only one I can think about would be Lindsey. Stevie, save for when she quit the band during her really bad time, was always committed to the band. With Lindsey, he may have been difficult, but it was more over his creative ideas coming through the music. He wasn't throwing his guitar at people. Big difference.

Lindsey was who I was thinking of, Not Stevie. Although she is proof that more than one member has had a very bad time.

Danny never threw his guitar at anyone, for the record. He smashed it up, but I've never read or heard anything about Danny getting physical with anyone else at the time of his sacking.

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

But, Danny was no more responsible for the success during the Peter Green years than Billy and Rick were during their time in Fleetwood Mac. Peter Green was already huge in Europe long before anybody had even heard of Danny Kirwan. So, really, it's the same thing. As for success, I still maintain what I said. Bob Welch had more commercial success with Fleetwood Mac than did Danny. Name ONE song of Danny's that was even a minor hit (and "Dragonfly" ceratainly does NOT count). Bob had "Hypnotized" in the US. Bob's Mac albums had much more commercial success than even the Peter Green stuff here in the US. And, Fleetwood Mac even got to play on US television TWICE when Bob was in the band. While I know you'll give the lecture on Europe, the US is where musicians go to make it big.

I won't give anyone a lecture. I know how much many people think that the US is the only place where success matters. If you insist on solely looking at US popularity then it's not a discussion for me. I will reiterate that Mac were HUGE in the UK in 1969-70.

Peter Green wasn't huge in Europe before 1968 by any stretch. Respected, yes - but no hits. Entirely different situation than Burnette & Vito's situation in the late 80s/early 90s. I maintain what I said - Bob Welch-era Mac may have seen more success in the States than the earlier stuff, but everywhere else in the world Mac couldn't get arrested. Danny didn't have many singles full stop, just odd releases in one or two countries. When Green is in your band writing "Albatross" and "Man of the World" and "Oh Well", no-one else gets to write singles. There were no world-wide Kirwan-penned singles.

"Hypnotized" wasn't even a single to my knowledge (a B-side) so I don't see how it could've been a hit. Played on the radio, sure. In the States. Does that make it a hit? "Albatross" is still a hit here then - you can't turn on the TV without it being used in an advert, let alone the radio. Green-era Mac played on TV in the US at least twice that I know of even if they had no hits. I don't believe that Mac singles charted at all in the US till the BN-era, apart from "Oh Well". The albums started to chart in progressively higher positions as time went on, but given their relocation to the US after Kirwan had gone, that was inevitable.

I don't really want to turn it into a Green/Kirwan vs Welch thing because I don't think it's relevant. Without either of them the band would have called it quits. My simple point is that regardless of how common it is or how attributable to human nature it might be, it's not good that a Mac member who contributed a lot has been mostly forgotten. Like you, I don't expect anyone to actually do anything about it, and I don't believe Fleetwood Mac OWES Kirwan or Welch or Burnette or Vito anything - that's not what I mean. I just mean it would be nice if they were mentioned sometimes. Sometimes Fleetwood Mac only seem to recognise their own existence between 1975 and 1987 and I think it would say a lot if they stretched their memories a bit.

The "Time"-era is another one - it's like that album never happened - almost like a cover-up. But then you could argue that that line-up didn't contribute strongly to the Mac story - you can't argue that about Kirwan.

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

But, on the other, Danny WAS a very difficult personality. I've not ready any comments from Jeremy regarding Danny, but look at the things Mick, John, Christine, Bob Welch, and Peter Green have said about Danny over the years.

I just want to make another point, and my intention is not to arbitrarily raise issues with SMD's point of view.

I think that Danny BECAME a difficult personality. The band he joined was a very different one from the band he left. The band he joined was younger and wilder and musically focused. The band he left was having all sorts of difficulties over and above any that Danny was causing, and consisted of three married people (two to each other) and a totally opposite personality in laid-back Bob Welch. Circumstances such as his mentor Peter Green leaving and the creative burden falling largely on himself must have been a tremendous pressure at a young age, then to have Green temporarily reappear in early '71 and show him up artistically - that must have been incredibly frustrating. I think if he'd been any older, he might have left when Peter or Jeremy left, and in either case the band might well have folded.

I have read some less-than-complimentary words from the other members about Danny, mainly from Christine and Bob (and nobody can argue with them - they were there) but I've heard nice things said about him by Peter, John and Mick - John as recently as his latest Q&A on here.

I don't wish to make excuses for Danny's effect on the other members, just think about reasons for it. SMD's point about the other members not being in a position to recognise his mental problems is a very good one - nobody could have been expected to see the signs back then. But now everyone knows.

Not for a minute am I suggesting that Fleetwood Mac are bad people for forgetting poor old Danny. I'm sure that when they look back at that time, they look at it as part of the whole, not as a succession of problems. I don't suppose Danny holds any grudges, and neither do Mac. Water under the bridge. I just stick up for him because I'm a big fan - I'm bound to stick up for him, whether he wants me to or not. And as a fan I'm bound to wish that Mac would make a grand gesture to Danny and he'd say thanks, and they'd have a laugh over old times - fans have the licence to wish for things like that. But I sure don't expect it, and if I met Mick in the street I wouldn't say, "Now look, go and help Danny - make Stevie sing "Dust" to cheer him up." But I would tell him how much I appreciate the old stuff and those past members that made it happen, and how I love the fact that Fleetwood Mac is 16 people, not just 4.

[Ghost_Tracker]

Originally Posted by Wouter Vuijk

Taken from the thread New Kirwan albums coming out on CD:



Well, I just had another look at Mick's DVD "The Mick Fleetwood Story" and I was amazed to notice that throughout his history of FM he just rarely mentioned Bob Weston, which I can understand, but failed to even make a single notice to Danny. In another interview he once mentioned that it was he who had to tell Danny to leave, and that that was one of the toughest things he ever had to do.

Why did he feel he had to ignore the meaning of Danny's presence in the band?

I have a copy of the DVD "Fleetwood Mac: Live at the BBC."
Mick had some very nice things to say about Danny Kirwan and his contributions to the band there.

[Ghost_Tracker]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

...Name ONE song of Danny's that was even a minor hit (and "Dragonfly" ceratainly does NOT count).

"One Sunny Day" ?

"Although the Sun is Shining" ?

[aleuzzi]

Originally Posted by Ghost_Tracker

I have a copy of the DVD "Fleetwood Mac: Live at the BBC."
Mick had some very nice things to say about Danny Kirwan and his contributions to the band there.

Good point. Maybe we'e looking at this the wrong way around. Maybe in so many of these documentaries Danny's contributions are underplayed because the editors chose not to deal with him...

That said, I have seen Mick underplay Danny's importance a few times. He says CHRIS'S "Station Man" was hit on the first tour, and in other places he refers to Danny as "a kid off the street who Danny's protege"--and not much else.

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by BklynBlue

In thirty years, none of those songs have ever been used on a movie soundtrack, or been covered by another major artist.

Actually, not quite true ...sure, for about 25 of those years, but recently, "Future Games" was used in Cameron Crowe's movie Almost Famous..."Sentimental Lady" was used in another recent movie whose title I forget at the moment. So, in the last 5 years, there've been two old Bob Welch penned Fleetwood Mac tunes featured in movies.

And, there IS some resurgence of interest in Danny Kirwan's solo albums, since they've just recently been re-released...exclusively in Japan, however, but still, just knowing that those albums ARE available on CD SOMEWHERE on the planet does brighten the day a bit. (but, in the yin & yang of it, both of Bob Welch's Paris albums have once again hit the "out of print" phase)