best song by Jeremy

[Doctor Brown]

You're definately right about the B.B King/Elmore James thing.

Danny made his debut with the band in August of 1968.

There was a session that was broadcast on Top Gear that aired in January where "Don't Be Cruel" was played. And then some others in April.

So from August 1967 when they played the Windsor Jazz and Blues Festival, to January of 1968 would make it five months from when they started playing professionally to when we actually have documented proof of when he began to play that stuff. Then Danny came along seven months later.

It's hard to imagine that all of this took place within such a short period of time.


Doc

[becca]

It's going to be a personal preference situation mostly. I just haven't heard Spencer develop in the way Richards or others mentioned did. His innovation or originality that I am aware of often seem to take the form of consciously overdoing certain aspects (subjective judgement) and effects my enjoyment. At the time Then Play On was around he didn't even appear on that Fleetwood Mac album at all though his photo is on it. That is the album I was first exposed to in 1970. Going by that it seems he was a very seperate side attraction; a specialist of slide. After Green left he was pressed into service to fill the Kiln House album, which most will admit is about the most offbeat and uneven assortment FM ever produced. Spencer's songs for it all are backward looking, and in terms of the group's progression they offer dead ends. I can only take your word there was an oldies but goodies revival happening in particular that year more than other years. I know there was a big revival in Paris Art Nouveau posters at that moment in pop culture history, and in silent films. Spencer is a curious footnote in terms of the group's development is what I recon looking back over it; not someone who could lead, or even contribute to the other members' creative work. I don't know, did he ever perform on any songs not featuring him or initaited by himself to cater to showing off his two talents? I understood that to be the case. If you take just those songs and put them all together I see a curiosity mostly, a side attraction. I don't see Fleetwood Mac just FM as his backing band. I think Kirwan and Christine McVie got it right about the blues and moved on and helped move the group forward. I very much enjoyed Dave Walker's material on Penguin but it also was backward looking to some extent as well. I don't think it was intended to be as limited as what Spencer did. His strengths became major weaknesses, and just as they are what interest you they are what leaves me dissatisfied, as he seemed to pander to it almost and showed no interest in what was happening then, cureent music, even among the great fellow musicians he was around and had access to. Anyone who would refuse to play with Green or Kirwan on Green and Kirwan songs I probably will never understand. As I say I am curious to hear any later works of his which are not strictly meant to imitate or exaggerate on someone else's music or style. It's a shame his technical ability was only put to his own uses for it and not available to the others in the group. I think he could have learned a lot and grown, just as Clapton always did through his various groups, instead of closing off and being that aloof seperate act always looking backward and recreating.

I am glad he had his moment of fame in 1968-70 being associated with FM, but looking back it is the one part that didn't grow or lead or contribute. Maybe the others were just that much more creative and original to me that many would have trouble holding their own in comparison I don't know. I can imagine the slide guitar work was exciting and influential for awhile, and would agree he be counted as one the greatest technicans. I tend to value punk rock though when many despise it as counter to technical skill, but the feeling is authentic and immediate like a lot of blues music, and not having seen Spencer live all I can say is I just don't get those qualities too often from his recordings I've heard so far.

Thanks for the sounding board, sorry my position is probably a negative one in a lot of ways. I've read people who think Christine McVie or Bob Welch are trivial talents and it seems ignorant, so I hope I don't seem to say Spencer is entirely trivial or not talented.

[Doctor Brown]

Hi becca!

This is the third time I've sat down to address your post. There's a lot here. But you raise some good points for which I will try to give my point of view.

First, as far as Jeremy devoloping, we have to look at the time factor. Everything that he did was within about a three year time frame. He was brought in to play Elmore James and rock and roll, which he did. I've never heard anyone say that they thought that Elmore James should PROGRESS. Playing slide-guitar is kind of a narrow field.

I have a theory that, at whatever stage a person begins listening to FM, that becomes their mental vision of who FM were. So for you to have been drawn to the stuff that was on "Then Play On", it would make sense that you would see Jeremy as a side attraction because he sat that one out and the previous stuff was so much different. Jeremy's picture was on the album cover because he was still in the band.

As far as consciously overdoing certain aspects. That is subjective. It's a double edge sword. If you take the first album, I don't think there is anything redundant there. When they did "Mr. Wonderful", I believe that there was some conscious repitition. I haven't gotten a good answer from Jeremy on this yet but, I think that he and Mike Vernon really thought that they had something with that "Dust My Broom" thing. And they thought that all they had to do was to come up with the right lyrics, and they would have a hit.

Back then you could take "Johnny B Goode" and put new lyrics to it and have a hit. So this is why I believe that you have so many similiar sounding tracks. I think that they were shooting for a hit single. And really the way that they were sequenced on the albums, it was just more of "that sound", and didn't sound like the same thing over and over.

I don't think that "Kiln House" is offbeat and uneven. When you say "backward looking" I assume that you mean retro. That is what it was designed to be, and really was not that much different than what you would have seen at a live show. Peter Green was not there, but Danny Kirwan filled in nicely with tunes like "Station Man" and "Tell Me All The Things You Do". Compare the material to the "Vaudeville Years". Same type of stuff.

He had a good song on that album called "One Together". I think that if he were to have stayed with the band and grown or progressed, it would have been in this direction. It was on parallel with Neil Young and some other artists of that time.

You didn't think that Jeremy was one who could lead. He did in fact lead, his own group, and he, and Peter, and Danny, did the same thing in FM. They were all "Front Men". Who lead their particular material.

As far as contributing, well he did contribute to other people's material on "Kiln House" and on "Purple Dancer". What was great was when Peter contributed to his stuff. Like on tunes like "Tiger". The infusion of Peter's guitar on this type of thing was what took that stuff to a new level.

Peter and Jeremy playing together was great. Jeremy felt that he was continuing to be well recieved on stage, so why change. Peter felt that if they were going to move forward, he would have to take the music in a different direction. This is when they grew apart.

Peter says that he didn't want to be the leader and have all the responsibility fall on his shoulders, but HE was calling the shots, and told Danny that he could have half of the next album. Thats why Jeremy didn't play on "Then Play On".

Jeremy wanted to move forward and away from the blues, but didn't know where to go. He said that he really tried to relate to where Peter's music was going and to some of the other music of that day, but he just couldn't get into it. I can understand this.

Yes, Jeremy's strengths became his weaknesses. Which was basically that he played blues and rock and roll. Like anything else it only goes so far.

I do think that he could do as well today as a touring blues act, as the rest of them. If he would play the things, that he knows it would take, for him to be successful.

Maybe you will hear his "Red Sky Blues". If you like blues at all you can't help but like it.

When Dave Walker came onboard, that band was lost. They didn't know what to do except to keep playing music. And it was OK. But they moved on pretty quickly.

I don't think Christine McVie or Bob Welch are trivial talents at all.

Thanks for keeping an open mind in discussing this.

Doc

[chiliD]

Peter has said that he was wanting Jeremy to just jump in to contribute to his tunes, but he didn't. Jeremy even admits in his Q&A here, that he was lazy & uninspired to grow. Hence the need to look elsewhere, so in comes Danny K. Personally, I think that was the best move they could've done.

It is kind of a shame that Danny's health took a downward turn, he was just seemingly hitting his stride. Just look at his contributions in a five year span (not a complete list, just my thoughts on his BEST):

Jigsaw Puzzle Blues
One Sunny Day
Without You
Like It This Way
Something Inside Of Me
Although The Sun Is Shining
Station Man
Tell Me All The Things You Do
Woman Of A 1000 Years
Sands Of Time
Child Of Mine
Sunny Side Of Heaven
Dust

Not too shabby...that COULD be a great Fleetwood Mac anthology all on its own.

[Doctor Brown]

Originally posted by chiliD
Peter has said that he was wanting Jeremy to just jump in to contribute to his tunes, but he didn't. Jeremy even admits in his Q&A here, that he was lazy & uninspired to grow. Hence the need to look elsewhere, so in comes Danny K. Personally, I think that was the best move they could've done.

It is kind of a shame that Danny's health took a downward turn, he was just seemingly hitting his stride. Just look at his contributions in a five year span (not a complete list, just my thoughts on his BEST):

Jigsaw Puzzle Blues
One Sunny Day
Without You
Like It This Way
Something Inside Of Me
Although The Sun Is Shining
Station Man
Tell Me All The Things You Do
Woman Of A 1000 Years
Sands Of Time
Child Of Mine
Sunny Side Of Heaven
Dust

Not too shabby...that COULD be a great Fleetwood Mac anthology all on its own.

Oh I could add to your Danny list ChilliD. I like almost everything that Danny did.

Jewel Eyed Judy
Blues with a Feeling
Sometimes
Bare Trees
Coming Your Way

I also think that bringing Danny in was the best thing that they could have done.

I thought that he had kind of gotten full of himself and had thrown a tantrum, and had left the band before any kind of health concerns though.

What you say about Peter and Jeremy kind of condenses what happened. I was trying to bring out points that led up to that.

It's true, Jeremy did not want to learn that stuff and was content with playing the Elmore James and Rock and Roll.

But I think that there was a tug of war going on, and that Peter had things backwards to subconciously prove himself superior. He knew that wasn't Jeremy's forte. He was the accomplished musician and should have jumped in on Jeremy's stuff instead of insisting it be the other way around. If he wanted to do something for the good of the group. It would have been better to strenghen one of Jeremy's tunes, rather than to possibily weaken one of his.

When he did that, he infused psychedelic
with Rock and Roll which was great.

Personalities, that's just how people are.

Doc

[chiliD]

Like you (at least I THINK it was in one of your posts) said in some other post...Jeremy had been saying that having both Peter AND Danny playing rhythm behind him was redundant, but that's exactly what gave Fleetwood Mac "that" sound. So, it really wasn't that Peter wasn't trying to "jump in" on Jeremy's stuff, he was right there driving the rhythms. I think alot of what Peter was talking about was that he'd hear Jeremy just playing this wonderful stuff on piano, but wouldn't bring any of that to the Fleetwood Mac table...or wouldn't play piano behind his tunes (which is why they brought in Ms. Perfect on the few tunes she played on).


Oh, sure...I could've listed ALL of Danny's contributions to Fleetwood Mac (well, except for "When You Say" ) as examples! I just picked out those as examples. He was definitely on a prolific streak there. Even the couple of outtakes I've heard (for example, "Trinity") was equally good as the tunes released.

From the way Mick's bio reads, the health problems led to the final tantrum...it was kind of brewing for some time (from the time Peter left, he claims). From the way Mick tells it, it was the opposite...he was getting more & more insecure, rather than being full of himself.

Plus, from reading the liner notes to the Vaudeville Years collection, Peter & Danny, for all the collaboration they seemed to do, weren't exactly close, either. Just a band of misfits who made good music, it seems.

[wondergirl9847]

This thread is so cool to read because of the background info on Danny, Peter, Bob, Jeremy...etc. Stuff I didn't know about!! Wasn't Danny shy, an introvert and had a hard time connecting with people, hence he and Peter (or anyone) not being close? Didn't Christine also (Maybe Bob Welch too) say somewhere I read that she never could talk to Danny or "connect" with him, he was very withdrawn? He never wrote/collaborated on any songs with anyone but Peter, did he?

Geez, what I wouldn't give to see a concert with Lindsey and Danny together....sigh...oh well

At least I have my DK tapes (and record) John made me and I am looking into getting Ram Jam City...and ebay can help me in my search for more Danny records! Dang, the net can be so EVIL and GREAT at the same time!!

[becca]

Along with the three year time span it's probably a good thing to think about how incredibly young these guys were. All three guitarists are really amazing in the skill level they were at and Danny was famous for how quickly he progressed. I guess nobody gets on Itzhak Perlman's case for playing all that old fashioned Mozart and Beethoven stuff right? :^)

I didn't know that One Together was written by Spencer actually, it's different and not drawing off something else specific so I guess I didn't think it would be his. A friend had the LP but I only have the CD which doesn't give info on every song's writer. I do like that song a lot, it's pretty cool and mellow. Blue Rodeo's Five Days In July album is the closest thing to it I can think of.

I thought Christine contributed to When You Say. There was a version with her singing and one with Danny singing. I think she plays keyboards on both of them. She did say Danny was hard to get to know, which describes a lot of other artists. They sounded nice together on Dust. It's probably impossible for most creative people spending any time together to not contribute to each others work though. If a lot is contributed they will share credit, if it's a minor touch or something they don't. It's like some of the Wailers musicians and background singers I know did contribute some innovative reggae stylings to some of the music officially credited only to Bob Marley. Christine isn't co-credited on any Kirwan songs I know of though.

[Denmeister99]

Well, I know Jeremy's one of the best slide guitarists
around, but I've always liked his piano songs too.

I especially like the version of
"You Don't Know What You're Missing"
on Live at the BBC.

For guitar - go with "Shake Your Moneymaker"
it rocks!

[macfan 57]

Originally posted by wondergirl9847
This thread is so cool to read because of the background info on Danny, Peter, Bob, Jeremy...etc. Stuff I didn't know about!! Wasn't Danny shy, an introvert and had a hard time connecting with people, hence he and Peter (or anyone) not being close? Didn't Christine also (Maybe Bob Welch too) say somewhere I read that she never could talk to Danny or "connect" with him, he was very withdrawn? He never wrote/collaborated on any songs with anyone but Peter, did he?

I have a Goldmine interview with Christine from about 10 years ago. She mentioned that while Danny was very talented, he was also very neurotic and very nerve-wracking to be around. She said he would never look you straight in the eye. She also said that they had never worked together at all. I think Bob Welch also mentioned in his Q & A here that Danny was just too sensitive to be a rock star. He just never had the personality or temperament for it.

I think it's a shame. I think Danny had just a beautiful singing voice-very soulful, fragile even.

[Doctor Brown]

This is a great conversation. So many things being brought out. I certainly respect everyone’s opinions, and appreciate your knowledge.

No, that wasn’t one of my posts ChilliD. I think that came from Jeremy’s Q & A. Jeremy doesn’t like chats or Q & A’s. He doesn't feel that he does well with them. I can relate to that. At least on here I can go back and edit, and not be held to each statement down to the letter. So I’m sure that some of the things quoted are generally accurate. But I think that if he had the chance, he might go back and say them a little differently, and maybe omit some verbiage.

Yes, Jeremy said that having Danny playing in addition to Peter on the Elmore James numbers was overkill, and he was probably right about those particular songs.

Do you see the difference that I’m talking about as far as Peter being behind Jeremy and driving the rhythms, as to what Peter did with the lead parts on “Tiger”?

As far as the piano stuff goes, it’s a little unclear. Jeremy used to do a lot of things at home and record them. He said that people would come over and say “don’t you want that stuff to go out”?. I don’t know if he was referring to piano or guitar or what, that they thought he should be presenting to the band for consideration.

I have been under the impression that Jeremy’s piano playing didn’t meet Peter’s expectations. Jeremy’s style of playing is more like that of Jerry Lee Lewis. It’s good for the rock stuff and bits can be overdubbed on some blues tracks, but it’s not like being an accomplished pianist who reads and plays and has years of formal training.

I thought that they did a great job with that combination on “Sweet Home Chicago”. So Jeremy could do that type of thing. But I don’t think that he could have created the ambience that Christine did on numbers like “Love That Burns”.

That becomes pretty apparent when you listen to “Hi Ho Silver” from Kiln House, and then to his solo “Honey Hush” from Live at the BBC. Same song, but Christine’s formal piano training takes it to a higher level.

I’m also not sure of what’s his on “Look Down At My Woman” and “Who's Knockin’”. There are supposed to be some over dubs with Bob Hall, who of course plays piano.

I’ve heard you say a couple of times that you didn’t care for “When You Say”. I like it! HaHa. I thought that it fit in nicely on “Then Play On”. Chris did do that one as well, perhaps it was more suited for a woman. “Trinity” is not my favorite Danny tune, but it still shows his good qualities.

Danny was a shy person. You’d almost have to be, to be as young as he was and to be so good on guitar. That meant a lot of time isolated by yourself practicing. I’ve known guys like that, and I’m sure that taking acid and drugs didn’t help with his paranoia.

But I don’t really think of that as health problems. I consider that to be "life", and if you’re shy and it is a concern to you, then you do something to try to overcome it.

But Danny didn’t have to do that. All he had to do was concentrate on his music. And don’t forget, he was Peter Green’s “protege” so to speak, and had to have felt that he commanded some respect. I don’t think that he expected anyone to question his position.

He didn’t get on with Bob Welch at all. I think that he felt challenged by him, and thought that his role was being diminished like had happened with Jeremy. But his behavior had been tolerated or accepted for so long, he was just being Danny. So he was just working and doing what he was supposed to do. Never mind dealing with personal issues.

Danny had perfect pitch and a wonderful ear for playing the guitar.

It will be interesting to hear Blue Horizon’s thoughts on meeting Danny. I think that we are lucky that Danny idolized Peter Green, and was able to come in and play with the ability that he did. Although I have also read some statements that Peter had made about Danny, that I would consider negative. So I guess that they werent what you would call the best of friends.

I’ve also read that Jeremy was the one person that Peter liked very much at the time of his departure from FM. That’s one question that I haven’t gotten answered from the horses mouth, but I will eventually.

Sorry these thoughts are not organized better, I’m just throwing them out as they come to mind.

Doc

[Denmeister99]

just want to clear something for MACFAN 57,
or have a comment on

I've read that comment from Christine also, but I think she
means co-writing songs, they did collaborate on the
single "When You Say", released by Christine Perfect,
which Kirwan was the producer (also played on)

so maybe Christine only meant FM material?

personally, I really like her version, it's very
understated and her vocal is great too,

do you agree?

[macfan 57]

Originally posted by Denmeister99
just want to clear something for MACFAN 57,
or have a comment on

I've read that comment from Christine also, but I think she
means co-writing songs, they did collaborate on the
single "When You Say", released by Christine Perfect,
which Kirwan was the producer (also played on)

so maybe Christine only meant FM material?

personally, I really like her version, it's very
understated and her vocal is great too,

do you agree?

Yes, I believe Christine was referring to writing songs with Danny. That's what I was trying to say. And, yes I also like "When You Say". But, I like Christine's version better than Danny's version on Then Play On. As someone said earlier, I think it works better with a woman singing it than a man.

I also have a question if anyone knows about Christine's piano playing on these early albums. I believe someone mentioned in another post that Jeremy only played on his songs. Did Christine play all of the piano parts on all of Peter Green's songs? I noticed that in the CD booklet for Mr. Wonderful. It says that Jeremy played piano. I know Chris played piano on "Love That Burns". What about "Stop Messin' Around"? Did you she play piano on that song or did Jeremy?

[wetcamelfood]

Originally posted by macfan 57
I also have a question if anyone knows about Christine's piano playing on these early albums. I believe someone mentioned in another post that Jeremy only played on his songs. Did Christine play all of the piano parts on all of Peter Green's songs? I noticed that in the CD booklet for Mr. Wonderful. It says that Jeremy played piano. I know Chris played piano on "Love That Burns". What about "Stop Messin' Around"? Did you she play piano on that song or did Jeremy?

Yes, CM is on SMR. You can hear PG direct her on one of the earlier takes of the song in the "in between song banter" on the "Compete Blue Horizon sessions" box set recordings.

Yeah, since they don't say specifically in the CD/vinyl liner notes I've always just assumed that Chris was doing the piano on PG's songs and JS did the piano on his own songs from MW but I guess we'll never know for sure.

I think it was printed somewhere (but of course, I can't remember where now) that from "Black magic woman" onwards (until PG left and then JS did play on others songs on "Kiln house" etc.) in the studio JS only played on his songs so this is why I have assumed what I have but it's hard to tell if it's the right thing to assume as a fan or not. At least we know JS w/FM LIVE was a different story, playing shakers on "Rattlesnake shake", "Oh well" etc.

John

[chiliD]

Originally posted by wetcamelfood
...playing shakers...

Ok, John, they're called MARACAS!!