Making Rumours by Ken Caillat

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by CADreaming

I was a bit shocked at Richard saying Lindsey had not even talked to him about his kids. That's surprising.

Yeah, it is rather surprising since in 2003 Ken told Mojo magazine that Lindsey told him that feeling Will's little hand grab his finger caused him to just get fatherhood, when he hadn't before. So, Lindsey has talked to Ken about his children at least once.

I didn't know that Ray worked for Conan. I wonder if that has helped Lindsey get a spot on the show. Heaven knows he hasn't been on Letterman.

Michele

[aleuzzi]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Maybe Ken is wearing better looking shirts now.

Michele

Bravo! Best comment on the thread yet!

[dnightshade]

Wow. Some of these comments are pretty intense. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but really, things are not always as they seem. And people are a lot more complex than what is written about them, or what another artist may say about them, or even what they say about themselves. I guess the thing to remember is that these are mere mortals, with issues and short-comings like everyone else.

As for the watchdogs, everyone has their buffers who protect them, whether it's friends, family, teachers, etc. The real difference here is that these people are paid to keep the distance, and they have a lot more to concern themselves with than the average person. And a lot more at stake if they don't.

And finally, it's unfortunate that some people throughout their lives continue to battle drug and alcohol addiction, as well as mental illness. Often they do not want help, or are unable to understand that something should be done in their best interest. So despite how much you might want to help them, or how many attempts have been made, sometimes you just can't save someone, as heartbreaking as that is.

[CADreaming]

Originally Posted by michelej1

But then again sometimes there are people who you help out 20 times and the 21st time, you just have to say no. I'm not saying that Judy is one of these people. I'm just saying that Mick can barely keep his own life and finances together after all of this time. If he ended up bankrupt again, I'm not sure any of the Macsters would let him sleep in their basement and I'm not sure I would blame them, given the chances that he has had.


Michele

Really, I totally agree. And, if Ken thought it was so awful about Judy, why didn't he help her? I mean, it's easy to sit back and say so and so didn't lift a finger, but meanwhile what can you do to help instead of passing judgment on someone else?

[BrownEyedGirl26]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

I'm not enjoying the Lindsey Buckingham vibes. This is the first time I heard him criticized by a colleage outside Fleetwood Mac. Sounds like Lindsey is a complete narcissist. Mick and Stevie seem to be the vocals one and Christine and John just go along. Yet, Christine has put Stevie in her place before. Strange dynamics. Battle of the Dragons

Jondalar, when exactly was it that "Christine put Stevie in her place"?

[egg cream]

Originally Posted by David

Ken is just extremely frustrated with the management surrounding the group. On the one hand, I don't blame him, but on the other, he himself has been in the business so long, he ought to be used to it. He also probably had buffers around him during the Rumours years.

Honestly, it sounds like he's less upset that there are buffers around the group and more upset that he's no longer one of the ones within the buffers. I'm sure it hurts - he used to be a part of their inner circle, he was there for some intimate stuff, he went through what most would probably consider a life-changing experience with them. And I definitely don't disagree that all their inner circle / outer circle, "never break the chain," "the band is the only thing that matters" bull**** is childish - and allows them to both manipulate the people close to them into being incredibly loyal while they're on the inside, and then abandon those people without feeling guilt as soon as they don't need them for the band anymore. This band is a bunch of babies drunk on their own diminishing power, it's cool, I can believe that.

But expecting people you knew 30 years ago to still be as close as you felt they were 30 years ago? Naw, dude. And expecting people who employed you 30 years ago to still take care of you financially? Double naw. You were perfectly happy with the situation back when you were part of their entourage, you just don't like it now because you're not a part of it anymore. And you're not some friend from back home that they abandoned when they hit the big time, you weren't a kid when it happened, you were a grown man and you're a part of the music business - you had the opportunity to get yours. (Also, that thing about Richard Dashut working for three years without a check is just weird to me. Why would he keep working for him? As someone who works freelance in a creative field...it doesn't matter how good a friend you think someone is, you don't get a paycheck from them, you don't work for them anymore. You learn that quick, so if Richard really worked for Lindsey for no money, that's crappy on Lindsey's part but that's ultimately Richard's fault.)

Originally Posted by turquoise5

Agreed. Employments end, friendships don't always last forever.
I certainly don't keep in touch with all my friends from 30-35 years ago. People's lives go in different directions. As far as former employers, why would I expect anything from them? I think it's up to each person to build on their past employment to further their careers (as Ken, to his credit, seems to have done; he certainly has worked with a lot of artists!).

Also, how many of them have been to rehab? Isn't one of the big rules of staying sober that you don't go back to hanging out with the people you did drugs with? Who in their right mind would be like, "Welp, I'm finally off coke! I guess I'll go find my old friends and talk about all the times we did coke!"

ETA: Okay, just read the entire interview and I don't think it's as "scathing" as the original post made it sound...that thing where he says "I may sound wacko, but living through something like that and being a part of a thing, you feel like you’re family, and you’re not a family. Fleetwood Mac was not generous “parents.” They’re pretty selfish; so many people that were part of the family have since been discarded. It’s sad. But, there is no responsibility from the band even though we were so close." I think he basically gets that the way they felt back then wasn't reality, and he's just remarking on what a bummer it is that things have changed. (Richard working for Lindsey without a paycheck is still d-u-m dumb, though.)

[Johnny Stew]

After watching the 'Destiny Rules' documentary and reading 'Say You Will'-era interviews (Lindsey wanted Mark Needham, Lindsey got Mark Needham. Lindsey wanted the heavier songs up front in the album's running order, Lindsey got the heavier songs up front. Lindsey wanted a double-album, Lindsey got a double-length album. Lindsey wanted to tour for two years, Lindsey got a two-year tour), and then reading this interview with Ken (Lindsey/Lindsey's management discouraged anyone in the band from participating. Lindsey's management shot down the use of audio outtakes for the e-book.), it's interesting that so many fans feel that Stevie calls the shots in Fleetwood Mac.

I'm not saying that she never throws her weight around -- I just tend to think, from all the evidence, that she's not the one who holds all the cards.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I'm not saying that she never throws her weight around -- I just tend to think, from all the evidence, that she's not the one who holds all the cards.

Well, Stevie, having been forced to wear a granny sweater for 2 years and forbidden from taking the mic off the stand, certainly never gives the impression that she holds cards or knows how to play them.

Michele

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Well, Stevie, having been forced to wear a granny sweater for 2 years and forbidden from taking the mic off the stand, certainly never gives the impression that she holds cards or knows how to play them.

Yeah, Stevie's also a drama-queen who's gonna ring every last bit of pathos out of a story. A Bronté heroine till the bitter end.

In all seriousness, I've sometimes wondered if those stories -- and the digs at Lindsey in the press -- are the only ways she feels she can get his attention. ("Ok, if you're going to ignore me in band meetings, I'm going to tell People magazine that you're the Ayatollah of a rock'n'rollah.")

[David]

Originally Posted by egg cream

This band is a bunch of babies drunk on their own diminishing power, it's cool, I can believe that.

Les mots justes.

But expecting people you knew 30 years ago to still be as close as you felt they were 30 years ago? Naw, dude. And expecting people who employed you 30 years ago to still take care of you financially? Double naw.

But egg cream, when people get older, they grow nostalgic. They also sometimes become Gatsbys and reach back to the past, trying to make it live again as if nothing had changed. It almost never works, as everyone learns sooner or later.

I'm just not sure Ken wants to be friends with all of them again. (He may even think they're all varying degrees of toxic in person.) I think he just wants them to answer his e-mail when he has a business idea. That's why I wrote what I did about all their various managers and personal assistants, and why I reiterate that those people serve exactly the same function as the mid-managers in the workplace. It's those people--those twits "doing their jobs"--who obstruct the attempts to hook up. Those people--Karen and whatnot--don't even know who he is and don't know that he engineered the albums that ultimately resulted in their own jobs. When I hear ledgies complain about how Stevie or the band never releases a batch of demos or concerts or any of the other ideas that get floated by fans or guys like Ken, and then defend the job that Karen and all the others do, I groan in frustration. Don't you guys realize that all that stuff you want probably never gets released because the personal-assistant/manager never let word of all the demand for it reach the boss?! By the way, there's a company that now owns the footage of the 1982 US Festival and is actively scouting for licensing opportunities. Do you think the Fleetwood Mac managers will ever let their bosses know that there's any demand for this? You get three guesses.

Sometimes the band itself apparently does answer Ken's e-mail. He brought up two examples in his interview (the TV shows about "Rumours"), but he also managed not too long ago to get them to listen to and approve the 5.1 DVD-Audio of "Rumours." So I conclude that when the business proposition appeals to them, they call. As we've all seen, they just don't seem to be interested in marketing their past in a way that's different from rereleasing "Rumours" in some way. They're not interested in live albums from long ago (about 15 years ago, Ken asked the ledgies to compile a list of old concert video and other footage in order to get something pulled together for sale, but that fizzled) or old demos and documentaries. They don't seem to be much interested in books, either.

Wouldn't it be funny if they ever needed his help with marketing their past or their old albums--and he didn't bother answering the e-mail?

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by David

By the way, there's a company that now owns the footage of the 1982 US Festival and is actively scouting for licensing opportunities. Do you think the Fleetwood Mac managers will ever let their bosses know that there's any demand for this? You get three guesses.

Exciting to think about that US Festival. Wonder if it would help to get Steve Wozniak involved. He has a lot of time on his hands these days.

Michele

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

In all seriousness, I've sometimes wondered if those stories -- and the digs at Lindsey in the press -- are the only ways she feels she can get his attention. ("Ok, if you're going to ignore me in band meetings, I'm going to tell People magazine that you're the Ayatollah of a rock'n'rollah.")

Yes, they're all very cute. Lindsey did the same thing when he told the interviewers that Stevie never thanked him for SYW and, of course, Mick's Playboy interview was more for Stevie than for Hugh Hefner.

Michele

[MikeInNV]

Originally Posted by David

That's why I wrote what I did about all their various managers and personal assistants, and why I reiterate that those people serve exactly the same function as the mid-managers in the workplace. It's those people--those twits "doing their jobs"--who obstruct the attempts to hook up. Those people--Karen and whatnot--don't even know who he is and don't know that he engineered the albums that ultimately resulted in their own jobs. When I hear ledgies complain about how Stevie or the band never releases a batch of demos or concerts or any of the other ideas that get floated by fans or guys like Ken, and then defend the job that Karen and all the others do, I groan in frustration. Don't you guys realize that all that stuff you want probably never gets released because the personal-assistant/manager never let word of all the demand for it reach the boss?!

Why would personal assistants feel the need to keep from passing those ideas on? I can see them serving as a screen if "the talent" didn't want to speak directly with "the crew" but if I were Karen I would be afraid to keep things from Stevie, especially business propositions about which I wasn't particularly savvy. What if Stevie later discovered she missed out on what she thought was a fantastic opportunity because someone in her cadre decided she didn't need to know?

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by MikeInNV

Why would personal assistants feel the need to keep from passing those ideas on? I can see them serving as a screen if "the talent" didn't want to speak directly with "the crew" but if I were Karen I would be afraid to keep things from Stevie, especially business propositions about which I wasn't particularly savvy. What if Stevie later discovered she missed out on what she thought was a fantastic opportunity because someone in her cadre decided she didn't need to know?

Oddly enough, I may have to side with Karen on this as a general rule. People who are assistants get a lot of suggestions and propositions. I know I've gotten a lot for GbV, and they're an indie band. I can't imagine what somebody like Stevie or Fleetwood Mac get. While I may personally think the suggestion or proposal is an amazing opportunity, I know that the ultimate answer is usually going to be "no". Many artists just don't care about (re)releasing old things. They may personally enjoy watching the old footage themselves, and may even understand the demand, but ultimately don't want to deal with all the hassles that go along with it.

[CADreaming]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Well, Stevie, having been forced to wear a granny sweater for 2 years and forbidden from taking the mic off the stand, certainly never gives the impression that she holds cards or knows how to play them.

Michele

Yeah, Mama definitely knows when to hold 'em and knows when to fold 'em.