The Sunday Times: Excess all areas

[secret love]

Originally Posted by jbrownsjr

I saw the OTTC tour and it was fantastic. I have to say however: I disagree with Lindsey wanting all those extra musicians for Fleetwood Mac shows. I love the rawness of the previous tours, the harmonies, keying in on who is playing what. What has made them such a great band is that each of the instrumentalists are odd players and singers. They strangely gelled together so well. It's what made them so fresh and unique. Even the Bob Welch days worked because each of them had weird playing styles and vocals.

As for LB being afraid for Stevie's health... I totally buy that's a major part of it. And he is totally justified in wanting to get away from that behavior. Especially when he is doing a huge amount of the work.

As for LB and Christine. I simply think he took it hard and was not happy about her leaving. 1. He didn't understand it. 2. He'd just come back and gotten used to FM again.

But the guy that he is, he had to make it work without Christine, and musically he looked at the positives and opportunities. But as we've seen, Christine's absence has been a huge hole for them. SYW is lacking, and that famous blend of magic is a bit less without the 5 of them. And while I love them to death, their voices have aged to the point of making them very less exciting.

In 1987 they did continue without him and I thought Christine was the one that shined live on the Shacking and BTM tours. But when you add session musicians to the weirdness of those guys it becomes a tad boring and almost forced to my ears.

Christine you're lonely, Lindsey you want another album, Stevie, you want another woman...

...Fine Go back to The Chateau in France where Mirage was recorded and spend a month or two together for the last album. Do like Pink Floyd and do NY, Chicago, Toronto, Los Angeles, and add Honolulu. Another FM album with the FAB FIVE will sell if promoted properly. Problem solved.

I absolutely agree with the premise of your argument and its conclusion. I would like to add:

As a fan, I do not have any "must dos" or "songs that if we don't play, we'd be taken out the back and shot"...I simply don't care. If Fleetwood Mac wants to do a tour where they just sing what they want to, even if it includes covers, that is fine with me. My preference is for band originals but I believe this is also the preference of all the writers. Furthermore, I believe Mick and John are the only ones who would like to play the blues (and maybe Christine a little too).

I think it is reasonable and achievable provided all of the band members maintain their current states of good health (I'm not referring to drug use: I'm actually referring to conditions of old age! )

If all of the "FAB FIVE" are alive there is no reason why they can't do just as you've suggested, JBrownsjr. The only thing stopping them all is pride.

If we have a new Fleetwood Mac album like this:

3 Stevie songs
3 Christine songs
8 Lindsey Buckingham songs

I honestly don't care. It is better than nothing. My ideal would be

5 Stevie songs
4 Christine songs
8 Lindsey Buckingham songs

but that is just my opinion. I believe the first option I listed is more likely to happen, if at all. If we get a new studio album: I will be thankful and appreciate simply for the pure effort and dedication and hard work of the band at this point.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by Deeshere

I attribute a large part of his problem (though I am sure not all of it) to being the fact that he did think Stevie was going to die. He has said that in his past experience that when the band get's out on the road, the drug use is 10 times worse than in the studio, so if Stevie was already so messed up she could hardly function in the studio. I'm sure he believed she would die if they went out and toured. I think him leaving was maybe a way that he could either try and stop the tour or at the very least not have to be a part of (or) have to watch someone he loves die.

The thing that bothers me about all of this is that it JUST focuses on Stevie and her issues. Let's not forget that John McVie just got out of rehab and Mick Fleetwood was still pretty messed up on cocaine in 1987. Would McVie relapse and have a seizure? Would Stevie and/or Mick OD? Could somebody die? Touring under those circumstances would be intimidating for anybody, let alone somebody who wasn't especially fond of touring to begin with.

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by secret love

I absolutely agree with the premise of your argument and its conclusion. I would like to add:

As a fan, I do not have any "must dos" or "songs that if we don't play, we'd be taken out the back and shot"...I simply don't care. If Fleetwood Mac wants to do a tour where they just sing what they want to, even if it includes covers, that is fine with me. My preference is for band originals but I believe this is also the preference of all the writers. Furthermore, I believe Mick and John are the only ones who would like to play the blues (and maybe Christine a little too).

I think it is reasonable and achievable provided all of the band members maintain their current states of good health (I'm not referring to drug use: I'm actually referring to conditions of old age! )

If all of the "FAB FIVE" are alive there is no reason why they can't do just as you've suggested, JBrownsjr. The only thing stopping them all is pride.

If we have a new Fleetwood Mac album like this:

3 Stevie songs
3 Christine songs
8 Lindsey Buckingham songs

I honestly don't care. It is better than nothing. My ideal would be

5 Stevie songs
4 Christine songs
8 Lindsey Buckingham songs

but that is just my opinion. I believe the first option I listed is more likely to happen, if at all. If we get a new studio album: I will be thankful and appreciate simply for the pure effort and dedication and hard work of the band at this point.

I don't mind this as long as they all record it together. Would rather see LB 4, CM 4, SN 4 LB/CM 1 SN/CM 1

[MikeInNV]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

The thing that bothers me about all of this is that it JUST focuses on Stevie and her issues. Let's not forget that John McVie just got out of rehab and Mick Fleetwood was still pretty messed up on cocaine in 1987. Would McVie relapse and have a seizure? Would Stevie and/or Mick OD? Could somebody die? Touring under those circumstances would be intimidating for anybody, let alone somebody who wasn't especially fond of touring to begin with.

Stevie was fine on the Tango tour. By the time that tour started, she had been out of Betty Ford and off coke for nearly a year. All the promo and videos for Tango were great. Yes, she had started Klonopin (although does anyone really know exactly when that started? Sometime after Betty Ford she saw a psychiatrist who prescribed it.) But I don't think we were seeing Klonopin effects in 1987.

[Deeshere]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

The thing that bothers me about all of this is that it JUST focuses on Stevie and her issues. Let's not forget that John McVie just got out of rehab and Mick Fleetwood was still pretty messed up on cocaine in 1987. Would McVie relapse and have a seizure? Would Stevie and/or Mick OD? Could somebody die? Touring under those circumstances would be intimidating for anybody, let alone somebody who wasn't especially fond of touring to begin with.

I agree with all your valid points. The reason I pointed more to Stevie than the other's is that at the time TITN was being recorded Lindsey did not have the same kind of friendship/love he has with John and Mick today.

That's not to say he was not worried about them, did not care about them or that he was not afraid that either of them could (or) would die on the road as well. However, the bond/love we see between Lindsey, Mick and John now seems to have happened around 95-96 when he brought them in to back up his solo album, and solidified even more during 2001-2002 when they were making SYW. Everyone was in a much better place physically and emotionally. Mick said he and Lindsey has long lunches and talked through a lot of old issues and came to understand each other in a way they never had before and developed a deep friendship that would last no matter what. However, all that happen after Lindsey left in 87.

Also neither Stevie nor Mick mention Lindsey being worried about either Mick or John health as a reason for him leaving, and that was why I focused more on Stevie than the other two.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Deeshere

That's not to say he was not worried about them, did not care about them or that he was not afraid that either of them could (or) would die on the road as well. However, the bond/love we see between Lindsey, Mick and John now seems to have happened around 95-96 when he brought them in to back up his solo album, and solidified even more during 2001-2002 when they were making SYW. Everyone was in a much better place physically and emotionally. Mick said he and Lindsey has long lunches and talked through a lot of old issues and came to understand each other in a way they never had before and developed a deep friendship that would last no matter what. However, all that happen after Lindsey left in 87.

I think Mick and Lindsey have been very close ever since Tusk, if not earlier. They logged a lot of studio time together and just getting Mick to convince the other band members to go ahead with Lindsey's version of Tusk took a lot of intimacy between them. They may have not have been social friends, exactly, but I think they had a loving and complicated relationship by that time certainly.

There was bitterness after Lindsey left the band, but I think it's very telling that Lindsey wanted to attend Mick's wedding, anyway. He wanted to extend that olive branch.

Michele

[michelej1]

To Steve's point, yes Mick was crazy at the time and he said 15 years ago that Lindsey left, in part, because of the way Mick was acting back then. I totally believe that's true.

Mick not only had the substance abuse problems, but financial problems (caused no doubt by the abuse) and he was miffed at Lindsey for not caring about the fact that Mick so desperately needed the tour money when Lindsey decided to leave the band. So, I'm sure he was especially wacky. When Lindsey complains about that Winnebago in his yard, I think he was trying to run from Mick (and I don't know what John was doing those days, maybe John too) and Stevie. Though with Stevie, I think her not being there for a lot of the recording was as troublesome for him as her being there.

One interesting thing Mick said right after Lindsey left is that if they had not pushed going on the road and just recorded Tango with no tour, then Lindsey might not have left when he did. But that would have been unfair to the rest of them, because if they left it to Lindsey, he would have sat around for another 4 years doing nothing and they would be saying, "Are you in the band or not?". Mick said they really had to put their foot down and insist on touring in 1987 and that's what made Lindsey leave. Otherwise, it might have just hung in limbo.

Michele

[CADreaming]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Though with Stevie, I think her not being there for a lot of the recording was as troublesome for him as her being there.



Michele

Stevie said that was "really hard for him" in the DS doc. And, Lindsey has alluded to that too.

[Tango]

Originally Posted by SpyNote

He quit taking coke “a long time ago,” but the booze has been harder to let go. “I haven’t been drunk for five months now,” he announces. With a 46-date tour of America about to begin soon after we meet, followed by European dates including four in Britain in September, he has had to shape up. “I knew I was drinking too much,” he says. “And the more I don’t drink, the more I realise I was really drinking too much.”


"I suppose I was late getting off the bus.”


It seems extraordinary that he still feels so shaky — despite having spent the last 47 years performing in one of the most commercially successful British rock bands since the Beatles.

“It goes way back,” he says. “So this is going to be interesting. I’ll have a glass of wine beforehand, but I don’t want to drink myself into a stupor just so I don’t get frightened. If I have four glasses of wine during a show, that’s cool — so long as I don’t get on the plane and finish off two more bottles.”

...........
As the Fleetwood Mac tour got underway, news broke that Fleetwood’s third marriage had crumbled — it was reported that he had filed for joint custody of his twin 11-year-old daughters.

I'm scratching my head as I read this. Mick's got an addictive personality. He has no self control over money, cocaine, or booze. Yet he sells the stuff, he's thinking four glasses of wine during a show is cool (any of you guys drink 4 glasses of wine during your jobs?) and "news broke" that his marriage had crumbled. And with all of this excess going on, he is filing for joint custody of his twin 11 year old daughters. If he admits to drinking four glasses of wine during a show, what's he doing when he's not performing? Lots of regret expressed about the past, and yet his current course isn't looking too safe either.

[Desiree]

Originally Posted by CADreaming

Stevie said that was "really hard for him" in the DS doc. And, Lindsey has alluded to that too.

I think that every time FM parted and then came back together for work, it was the same old thing: getting a working relationship going AGAIN, compartmentalizing(LB) the demons, good moments that make you wonder, bad, so bad you never wanted to do it again, and then you get to tour together! Probably got crazier and crazier as their drug and alcohol use escalated (and NOT just SN and MF). Also, each time it was getting back together with people you love and want but can't be with (because you can't behave like adult human beings and iron things out) so all the longing, anger, lust, etc. just goes into a slow boil until it overflows and we see it at the show or hear about it later.

TITN must have been a real horror for LB! The time he usually got to spend with SN did not happen and when she was there, she was ZONED out. SN said that they started her on 1 mg/2 times a day and she probably left Betty Ford on Klonopin because that was the norm back then (that is a large starter dose, btw, and they didn't know what they know now about benzos) and is enough to make 5'1", 110 lb me with full on untreated ADHD, stay half with it, groggy and really not care what happens, if I could even stay awake at all! Very soon thereafter it was 3 times a day. Now the zone is constant and will require more as time goes on to accomplish. If you've ever been around someone addicted to benzos, it ain't fun and is never productive! I hated the way she looked and behaved during the Klonopin days. She was beautiful but so duhhed out and her costumes, etc. became almost clown like. When '94-'95 showed us a new, clean (finally) Stevie, only then did I start to believe she'd live.
So I'd imagine LB, was scared for SN's life, disgusted by her druggy behavior, pissed about his solo stuff turning into a FM record, and on and on and on...I do believe that as angry as he was and as over her crap as he had to have been, that he still loved her and was afraid she'd OD one time and it would finally be too late! According to Keith Olsen, etc. on SN's BTM, she OD'd several times, said they'd have to scoop her up off the floor...anything we know can probably be multiplied 10-fold so it must have been totally shocking to LB who was still fighting his own addictions and demons to actually see the depths to which SN had sunk. What a story! We all have one, but some people.....

[HomerMcvie]

Originally Posted by Tango

I'm scratching my head as I read this. Mick's got an addictive personality. He has no self control over money, cocaine, or booze. Yet he sells the stuff, he's thinking four glasses of wine during a show is cool (any of you guys drink 4 glasses of wine during your jobs?) and "news broke" that his marriage had crumbled. And with all of this excess going on, he is filing for joint custody of his twin 11 year old daughters. If he admits to drinking four glasses of wine during a show, what's he doing when he's not performing? Lots of regret expressed about the past, and yet his current course isn't looking too safe either.

Four glasses isn't that much. Maybe you're not a drinker, but any drinker knows that 4 isn't that much.
I will play a 3 hour show tonight. I will have a large squeeze bottle sitting atop my guitar amp, filled with 1/2 pint of whiskey, and mixed with ginger ale. And all will be good. No mistakes, no forgotten lyrics...just a mild buzz, that will enhance my playing. Fact.

[Desiree]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

Four glasses isn't that much. Maybe you're not a drinker, but any drinker knows that 4 isn't that much.
I will play a 3 hour show tonight. I will have a large squeeze bottle sitting atop my guitar amp, filled with 1/2 pint of whiskey, and mixed with ginger ale. And all will be good. No mistakes, no forgotten lyrics...just a mild buzz, that will enhance my playing. Fact.

I used to drink socially, now I don't. Simply doesn't make me feel good...unless you are an alcoholic or drink excessively, anyone would admit that 4 glasses of wine each nite 'during' the show is a lot! And, as LB and many other musicians and players have said of that 'enhancement' argument...Bull! You do your best work when you are straight and focused! Plus, that's during the show! What about the hours off? Bad, bad influence for those who have beat their demons down...uhh, everyone of them!!!!!

[vivfox]

Originally Posted by Desiree

I used to drink socially, now I don't. Simply doesn't make me feel good...unless you are an alcoholic or drink excessively, anyone would admit that 4 glasses of wine each nite 'during' the show is a lot! And, as LB and many other musicians and players have said of that 'enhancement' argument...Bull! You do your best work when you are straight and focused! Plus, that's during the show! What about the hours off? Bad, bad influence for those who have beat their demons down...uhh, everyone of them!!!!!

I don't understand why Mick feels the need to drink 4 glasses a night. Some night's it could be five, six or four. Problem is, you can't just have one. Well some people can actually, but not a former alcoholic. Too bad he just can't live a drug and alcohol free lifestyle.

[HomerMcvie]

Originally Posted by Desiree

And, as LB and many other musicians and players have said of that 'enhancement' argument...Bull! You do your best work when you are straight and focused!

Not necessarily true. At least for me. I used to play with a drummer, who didn't drink. And he'd tell me, "David, I've played with a lot of guitarists over the years, and for most, drinking hurts their playing....you are the ONLY guy I've ever seen, whose playing improves with drinking. You're able to venture out on (successful) tangents, when you've got a buzz". So I do think that for some brains, it improves their playing. Not their dexterity of course, but their thought process. You can see how that could be, right?

I think for me, I'm a VERY right brained, concrete thinker, and a buzz let's me close the concrete plant, and venture into left brain land. If I liked pot, I'd be a pot smoker instead, but I don't...

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by CADreaming

Stevie said that was "really hard for him" in the DS doc. And, Lindsey has alluded to that too.

This reminds me of some comment Stevie made about people always wanting her in the studio a lot. She said she didn't know why, but speculated that she must be very vibey. I don't remember the exact quote, but it struck me as amusing.

Michele