SYW, best album of all time?

[fairydust75]

jeez....they are just demos.....its the emotion of the lyrics and how the individual listener interprets the meaning of those words that make it come alive and make some of us prefer them to the finished product the demo music was just providing structure for the lyric at that point.
I liked SYW, but Christine was what was missing...She balanced the Fleetwood Mac sound as well as the personal dynamic....
Stevie/Lindsey drama will it never end
Something happened at the end of the recording of the album, you can tell at the end of the DR doc. but of course they left all the good stuff out. There was a definite divide and the album and the tour suffered for it.....
.... Maybe.... ' You May Be The One' on Stevie's new album holds some clues. IMO....
in the end we got two solo albums for the high price of one......
Hopefully, IF we get one last Fleetwood Mac album they will get it right... one last time for the road....

[michelej1]

Fleetwood Mac: Say You Will (Reprise)
Barney Hoskyns, Uncut, May 2003

MORE THAN most bands, Fleetwood Mac elicit complex, unresolved feelings. On the one hand they're the ultimate mainstream soft-rock dinosaur, pass masters of glossy emotions and overcooked arrangements. On the other hand...

On the other hand what, exactly? It's not like Fleetwood Mac are Abba – So Uncool They're Cool. But nor have Fleetwood Mac ever been So Cool They're Uncool... if you know what I mean. So what are they, and why does a goodly percentage of their music stand up after decades?

I guess because a) witchy woman Stevie Nicks has the irresistible voice of a petulant siren; b) studio geek Lindsey Buckingham still wants to be Brian Wilson; and c) Fleetwood Mac were and are truly a band for boys and girls. Good things all.

So here they come again, in a post-post-punk hip-hop-dominated universe, keen to make meaningful music. And there's a historical parallel here: just as 1979's "brave, off-the-wall" double-album Tusk followed 1977's stratosphere-busting Rumours, so the almost-double-CD Say You Will follows the play-safe "live greatest hits" thing that was 1997's The Dance.

The funny thing is that Tusk, when you revisit it, doesn't sound off-the-wall at all. Which makes Say You Will all the more out-there as mainstream rock product. Next to Tusk, indeed, this eighteen-track opus is a box of All-Sorts replete with countless different colours and moods.

As one would expect, there's a slew of those Stevie songs that are essentially narcissistic hymns to, well, Stevie Nicks. One of them is called ‘Silver Girl’, no less. Another, ‘Illume’, is a bongo-driven meditation on life-post-9/11 and boasts the priceless line "I am a cliff dweller from the old school". Gotta love the woman: on the closing ‘Goodbye Baby’ she sounds like Kate Bush spliced with Victoria Williams.

Then there are Lindsey's songs, some of which date back to the solo "project" that should have come out after Out Of The Cradle. What makes Say You Will really great are Lindsey tracks like ‘Red Rover’, ‘Come’ and ‘Say Goodbye’. The Buckingham pipes are still a bit bleating but the heady melodicism and thrilling hyper-syncopation of ‘Rover’ are really intoxicating. ‘Come’ starts with softly ambient Salif Keita picking and then blasts into a blaringly histrionic rocker. The shimmering ‘Say Goodbye’ – all dappled guitars and whispered vocals – suggests Lindsey has been listening to modern-day troubadours like Elliott Smith.

The album peaks somewhere in the middle, with ‘Rover’ followed by the effortlessly shiny Steviepop of the title track and then by first single ‘Peace Keeper’, a true Bucks/Nicks joint effort. Both pack killer choruses, as insidiously sweet-sad as vintage Mac classics from ‘Silver Springs’ to ‘Gypsy’. Nicks' ‘Running Through The Garden’ is early-'80s Hippie Power Pop, with a layered keyboard hook and chugging noowave guitar.

For obvious reasons the only flavour missing on Say You Will is the departed Christine's perfect Tango In The Night bop-pop, making the album more Buckingham-Nicks Redux than anything else. (You can hear Chrissie, though, on the moody, thumping ‘Murrow’.) That's OK, because there's so much here to get one's teeth into.

Tusk this album isn't, but Tusk it doesn't need to be. In an age of off-the-shelf Linda Perry pop, Fleetwood Mac keep the mainstream interesting. Say you'll give it a spin.

[mylittledemon]

Originally Posted by michelej1

I guess because a) witchy woman Stevie Nicks has the irresistible voice of a petulant siren; b) studio geek Lindsey Buckingham still wants to be Brian Wilson; and c) Fleetwood Mac were and are truly a band for boys and girls. Good things all.

He nailed it, didn't he?

[Spikey]

Until:

Next to Tusk, indeed, this eighteen-track opus is a box of All-Sorts replete with countless different colours and moods.

Say You Will is a wild album compared to Tusk? No way, Tusk is out there. There's nothing close to "The Ledge" on SYW, Murrow and Come are far more mainstream or at least more hard rocking than obscure, compared to the Tusk work, especially Lindsey's. SYW is very much overall a mainstream album (which didn't help it differentiate from the competitors, IMO), despite a couple of LB oddities.

I will agree there are many musical styles on SYW, which is great. But Tusk has more than half its' tracks differing in style, even within the same genre and style.
That;s why it's my number 1 of all time, it's literally beyond compare (IMO).

or

As one would expect, there's a slew of those Stevie songs that are essentially narcissistic hymns to, well, Stevie Nicks. One of them is called ‘Silver Girl’, no less.

Silver Girl's not even about Stevie, and I think most of her songs on this album are about other people.

or

(You can hear Chrissie, though, on the moody, thumping ‘Murrow’.)

I don't think I need to explain this one.




I agree with a lot of the old article, but it feels sorta like he didn't listen to the album very closely (IMO). Of course, we know a lot more about the album and its history 8 years on..





On demos- the "Smile At You" Mirage demo sounds like a mostly finished track. I don't know if jbrownsjr has heard the version I've heard (he probably has), but I can't believe he said it's embarrassing. It sounds like many Mac Stevie tracks, a little rambly but the music is near flawless.

The disappointing thing, which has been covered ad nauseum, is that Buckingham's rock piece is replaced by that syncopated synthetic boring guitar (similar to what happened to Thrown Down from the original Stevie solo version with Buckingham), and as David said, Stevie's vocals lack emotion. But you could say that about a lot of her vocals on SYW. Maybe it's the production, with her live work and now IYD, we know she hasn't lost it by any stretch.


If I was to nail down feelings on this album, it's that it's very good (without going on, the album is great), that Buckingham's songs are beyond great but sadly don't fit within the environment of the mellow Mac at all (well, songs like Come and Murrow anyway), and that the letdown is the production on the album- it's very random and very poorly done.
The very tight "Bleed To Love Her", for example, is left to ramble on from well past the 3 and a half minute mark to no great end, and there are too numerous other examples to mention.
Also, the single choices. Duh, they suck (I mean, good songs, but awful choices for the lead singles, worst choices BN-era-Mac ever made). Maybe something more like Destiny Rules and Bleed To Love Her, but we could debate that all year, and I'll probably change my mind tomorrow.
The final thing would be that the Dylan cover of Love Minus Zero is excellent, Lindsey really sounds like Bob, which is amazing to me, I didn't think he would, and the song is played really well. Of course it's another one I don't understand why it would have anything to do with a FM album.


Like someone just said, with the DR doc, and with subsequent media, we know it wasn't a good time for S and L by the end of the album and decisions were badly made, mistakes were made, the album didn't turn out how it should. Stevie's unhappy with it, Lindsey seems overall happy with it, I guess because his work was unaltered from his demos and Stevie's were probably really messed with. Anyway.


Anyone else's thoughts?

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by Spikey

Until:

Say You Will is a wild album compared to Tusk? No way, Tusk is out there. There's nothing close to "The Ledge" on SYW, Murrow and Come are far more mainstream or at least more hard rocking than obscure, compared to the Tusk work, especially Lindsey's. SYW is very much overall a mainstream album (which didn't help it differentiate from the competitors, IMO), despite a couple of LB oddities.

I will agree there are many musical styles on SYW, which is great. But Tusk has more than half its' tracks differing in style, even within the same genre and style.
That;s why it's my number 1 of all time, it's literally beyond compare (IMO).

or

Silver Girl's not even about Stevie, and I think most of her songs on this album are about other people.

or

I don't think I need to explain this one.




I agree with a lot of the old article, but it feels sorta like he didn't listen to the album very closely (IMO). Of course, we know a lot more about the album and its history 8 years on..





On demos- the "Smile At You" Mirage demo sounds like a mostly finished track. I don't know if jbrownsjr has heard the version I've heard (he probably has), but I can't believe he said it's embarrassing. It sounds like many Mac Stevie tracks, a little rambly but the music is near flawless.

The disappointing thing, which has been covered ad nauseum, is that Buckingham's rock piece is replaced by that syncopated synthetic boring guitar (similar to what happened to Thrown Down from the original Stevie solo version with Buckingham), and as David said, Stevie's vocals lack emotion. But you could say that about a lot of her vocals on SYW. Maybe it's the production, with her live work and now IYD, we know she hasn't lost it by any stretch.


If I was to nail down feelings on this album, it's that it's very good (without going on, the album is great), that Buckingham's songs are beyond great but sadly don't fit within the environment of the mellow Mac at all (well, songs like Come and Murrow anyway), and that the letdown is the production on the album- it's very random and very poorly done.
The very tight "Bleed To Love Her", for example, is left to ramble on from well past the 3 and a half minute mark to no great end, and there are too numerous other examples to mention.
Also, the single choices. Duh, they suck (I mean, good songs, but awful choices for the lead singles, worst choices BN-era-Mac ever made). Maybe something more like Destiny Rules and Bleed To Love Her, but we could debate that all year, and I'll probably change my mind tomorrow.
The final thing would be that the Dylan cover of Love Minus Zero is excellent, Lindsey really sounds like Bob, which is amazing to me, I didn't think he would, and the song is played really well. Of course it's another one I don't understand why it would have anything to do with a FM album.


Like someone just said, with the DR doc, and with subsequent media, we know it wasn't a good time for S and L by the end of the album and decisions were badly made, mistakes were made, the album didn't turn out how it should. Stevie's unhappy with it, Lindsey seems overall happy with it, I guess because his work was unaltered from his demos and Stevie's were probably really messed with. Anyway.


Anyone else's thoughts?

No that wasn't me Spikey... I like the Mirage vers..

[michelej1]

10 Years Ago: Fleetwood Mac Release ‘Say You Will’

By Dave Swanson April 15, 2013 10:45 AM | Ultimate Classic Rock

http://q1077.com/fleetwood-mac-say-you-will/

After the huge comeback success of the live reunion album, ‘The Dance,’ in 1997, Fleetwood Mac were back in a big way. The obvious questions started flying, asking about the chances of a new Mac LP. In spite of a short round of drama, they answered that question with the full-flying ‘Say You Will, ‘ which was released on April 15, 2003. The album marked the return of Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks to the clan, but also saw the departure of mainstay Christine McVie.

After the 1987 ‘Tango In The Night’ LP, Buckingham left the band to concentrate on his solo career. The Mac soldiered on and issued two more albums, ‘Behind The Mask’ (1990) and ‘Time (1995), by which time Nicks had also split. The 1997 reunion set the stage for big things to come, but following the tour, Christine McVie made the decision to retire. Buckingham, Nicks, John McVie and Mick Fleetwod regrouped as a four-piece to put an album together. Fortunately, they already had a head start.

Lindsey Buckingham had been working on a solo album since the late-’90s and had, in fact, called up his old band mate McVie and Fleetwood to play on a few tracks. A planned album titled ‘Gift Of Screws’ never materialized (the title was used for his 2008 solo set), but tracks from that batch of recordings found a home on ‘Say You Will,’ and after a little tweaking, became full-fledged Fleetwood Mac songs.

‘Miranda,’ ‘Red Rover,’ ‘Come,’ ‘Steal Your Heart Away’ and ‘Murrow Turning Over In His Grave’ — all classic Buckingham tracks — are from those solo sessions. In ‘Murrow,’ Buckingham’s wired and haunting vocal derides the state of media, and coupled with some equally haunting and fiery guitar work, the song just soars. ‘Steal Your Heart Away’ is the hit that got away. It’s pure Fleetwood Mac pop that begged for radio play, but alas, was not to be. Ditto for the LP’s title track, written by Stevie Nicks. ‘Say You Will’ shows Nicks off in her signature style and though it just missed the Top 20, it proved the band were back in top form.

‘Come’ is a very heavy and very harsh rocker that borders on psychotic. Buckingham really lets his demons lose here, delivering a blistering guitar solo, while ‘Red Rover’ shows off a more gentle and intricate guitar style from the man. Meanwhile, other amazing gems like ‘Miranda’ and ‘Bleed To Love Her’ proved that the songwriting fountain of Buckingham was far from dry. The songs on ‘Say You Will’ rank with his best.

That’s not to say it’s all Lindsey’s show here. Miss Nicks puts forth a heaping batch of her own pearls here like ‘Silver Girl,’ ‘Smile At You,’ and the dynamic ‘Destiny Rules,’ which is one of the best tracks on the album. It’s a long record, with 18 tracks that clock in at well over an hour.

‘Say You Will’ hit No. 3 on Billboard and made it to ‘Gold’ status. Though a far cry from the mega-billion and counting sales of ‘Rumours,’ it was definitely a solid showing commercially. Artistically, however, it was a genuine triumph.

The four-piece version of Fleetwood Mac are still together and on the road, but have said that another album might not be in their collective future again. If ‘Say You Will’ were to be the last full-length album the band ever release, it certainly qualifies them as going out on a high note.

[Machu]

I'm a Say You Will advocate. With this album we get amazing songs like Destiny Rules, Miranda, Running Through The Garden, Thrown Down, and Peacekeeper all of which rank among the band's best, imo. It feels a little more Tusk than Rumours but I always liked Tusk better anyways.

[The Highwayman]

Geez, all the people skipping over or disliking some amazing songs on SYW: 'Silver Girl', 'What's The World Coming To', 'Say Goodbye' (!!) and 'Goodbye Baby'. Really? Well, that's opinions for ya. 'Say Goodbye' is the second best song on SYW (nothing can surpass the greatness of 'Thrown Down').

I love this album. I like the white FM album, Rumours, Tusk and Mirage more and Tango at least as much, maybe more, but still, I feel SYW is a strong strong album.

As for the title of this thread, no way is it the best album of all time. Hah, it's not even the best Fleetwood Mac album. Hell, it's not even the best album of 2003.

[secret love]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

I really do love some of the songs on SYW... but I just don't think it's a great album. The absolute polarity of Lindsey & Stevie on Tusk was balanced out by the bridge that was Christine. SYW is like Tusk, only minus the bridge. So it comes across as combative & schizophrenic. Stevie definitely brought her best material to the table since Mirage (yes, I'm counting Behind The Mask). But it just had no relation or commonality to Lindsey's material. I think this stepping stone was one that was necessary to happen, though. I think Stevie & Lindsey needed to trip, fall, and bloody themselves up. And hopefully they'll be better for it on the next album. And I truly do think there will be one more 'next album.'

i disagree that Stevie's material had no commonality to Lindsey's. I do feel a genuine ongoing emotional dialogue in the majority of these 18 songs (not counting the first 3 songs because they are all about wordly concerns or media politics in the case of Murrow).

Thrown Down is the true gem on the album I do agree. Why not play it on the tour though, and why on Earth was it not a single? I honestly believe they could have a platinum single with Thrown Down had it been released in 2003 when it was still poignant for Buckingham and Nicks' relationship. It is Stevie's songwriting at its most honest, raw; emotional. Thrown Down describes the tragedy of Stevie and Lindsey being unable to reconcile their differences and reunite during 1997's The Dance. Had she debuted the song during The Dance tour ...I can only imagine the soaring success and the gossip column space it would have had.

Steal Your Heart Away feels like Lindsey's response to Thrown Down ...and it is what the title says. We suffer, our feelings from the heart, our loves and hopes of romance are cruelly dashed before we can offer any protest. In his case, Kirsten became pregnant with his son...is this correct? So no Buckingham Nicks romance revisted fortunately...or unfortunately.

Then Rappacini's Daughter [Running Through the Garden] what a rocker. Should have kept it in the tour setlist, it's a shame the Mac has only once played it live.

Destiny Rules...wow...the funny thing is I was singing that song and Mum said "Oh my God, did you write that? James you could sell that song!" I explained that it was written by Stevie Nicks and later played the studio version to Mum and she said "hm, No I liked it better when you were singing it". This is somewhat concerning as Mum said this quite honestly and went on to say she didn't like the sound of Stevie's voice on that song..."nasally"...I am not a lead singer like Miss Nicks. I play some basic piano and that's all so really she should sound better than me!

I do love SYW; esp the above songs despite my DR comments and also Smile at You (the angry demo), What's the World Coming to, Illume, Come (which Mum thinks sounds Chinese ), Silver Girl ("I wrote it about Sheryl Crow"-S.N.), Say Goodbye (live...I dislike the studio recording...same thing with Bleed to Love her) and Goodbye Baby

so...

1. Say You Will
2. Peacekeeper
3. What's the World Coming to
4. Illume (9-11)
5. Come
6. Running Through the Garden
7. Silver Girl
8. Steal Your Heart Away
9. Thrown Down
10. Bleed to Love her
11. Say Goodbye [Live]
12. The Tower (Goodbye Baby)

The dozen songs above for me are musical bliss. Excluded Smile at You because sorry Stevie - you just don't have that fiery angry passion of 1982 in your voice in 2013!

[secret love]

The person I quoted previously said, I think, that he believes there will be another Mac album. i forgot to say that I support this view.

There is a thread somewhere in the ether here in the Lindsey forum with the titles to the remaining 4 unreleased tracks - presumably also Fleetwood Mac songs, as Sad Angel and Miss Fantasy were included in this list someone dug up in 2012. Goes something like this

Sad Angel
Without You
It Takes Time
Miss Fantasy
In my World
Is it Right
Lay Down for Free
Hunger
On with the Show

(The last song is possibly merely the previous working title for Miss Fantasy - remember the line "10000 voices crying, on with the show..."

http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?p=1083019

I know Stevie is not on the Internet, but if she is doubtful about whether Mac fans want new music she needn't be...we all clearly do want new music and I think we agree that something is better than nothing (though given the complaining and scathing reviews I read about Extended Play on these boards...)

Stevie should release some of her old demos for sure - Space Needle from 2000/TISL; Call on me for Magic; Blue Water; Nomad (ok - not a demo - more in the same vein as Without You).

But SN really needs to sit down at the piano and write again, while she still has her health and her voice. I know 65 is almost considered just past middle age when we have many people living to be 90 or 102 but Stevie needs to realise...
it's all well and good to boast that you will be singing into your 80's [which she did just this year]...but there's a strong possibility she only has 10-15 years left and to not make any new music in that time would be to waste her talents and disappoint her loyal fans. It also means she doesn't realise her own publicly stated dreams of wanting to record again (solo).

[Dex]

Secret Love, I don't think Stevie has indicated anywhere that she isn't going to be creating and releasing new music in the near future. I do think it's pretty clear from her comments over the past decade that she finds Fleetwood Mac in the studio to be creatively unrewarding. She's drawn to being a part of the "big name" that is Fleetwood Mac, so she keeps a foot in for that reason (also, let's face it, the cash is good). But honestly, I think the older she gets, the less inclined she is going to be to put herself through experiences she just plain ol' dislikes, and her priorities will shift towards solo work. Nothing wrong with that.

I'm sure she said in an interview somewhere that she was unhappy with Say You Will because she thought all the demos for her songs were better than what was released. And, much as I love Say You Will (I love it a lot, you guys), I kinda take her point in most cases. I think there's a general fan consensus that Lindsey's solo GOS versions of the SYW songs were superior as well. So while I absolutely adore the album, I think it's fair to say it wasn't really a success artistically.

[Villavic]

Originally Posted by caroline79

I think Say You Will might be my favorite Fleetwood Mac CD. It's weird because I wouldn't have thought it would be, I actually dreaded even listening to it thinking I would hate it so much.
:

So this thread should be titled "my favorite album", not the best album of all time. Actually there is not an absoulte "best album", but SYW is far from that place.

[secret love]

Originally Posted by Bandon

It was just a demo so I don't think most people expected an exact duplication....just something with a little emotion that did not sound like it was created using a computer generated loop. That being said, the mixed critical reviews (including many fans on this site) and lackluster sales figures for SYW speak for themselves. Even Stevie was disappointed with SYW and mandates a different producer for any future albums. Oh, getting dropped from the record company after the CD is also an interesting barometer of how well the work was received.

The SYW record was certified Gold in the States and quite possibly, since no one knows exactly how many units were sold (last count that I read of was 800,000) Say You Will quite possible sold enough units in the US to reach Platinum status (1,000,000). It sold better than Behind the Mask and definitely better than Time.

And it does seem that the non-hard-core fans and general public (i.e. casual fans or people not very familiar or totally unfamiliar with Fleetwood Mac) are not interested in new Fleetwood Mac music now, and were not very interested in SYW at the time of its release either. To assume this is because of the album being of poor quality is fallacious and it would be difficult to establish cause and effect as to why Fleetwood Mac did not achieve P<5> or even better as they have previously but I think it is too late for them to do that now, and in 2003, it was already too late - especially without Christine churning out some more hits. Maybe some of her In the Meantime songs or leftover songs from The Dance (as she said publicly she wrote about 10 songs in preparation for the MTV Dance 'Mac special) would have boosted SYW's sales.

Bands and solo artists aged over 40, let alone 50 or 60 tend not to sell many copies of non-greatest hits new release studio albums. Fleetwood Mac's EP has zero airplay in Sydney, Australia to my knowledge not even classic hits radio stations have played Sad Angel or Without You or [gasp] Miss Fantasy and It Takes Time.

Anyway - sales is not necessarily an indicator of quality in the music industry.

And I love how SYW is so divisive - even more so than Tusk. Lots of people love Tusk among devoted fans on the Ledge, a few hate, some are in between but SYW seems to be very much love or hate with only a few people indifferent about it going by this thread. A lot of people are tending towards hating it though and I think they are missing out because it is a great album to me, but diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks.

And the Smile at You angry demo from '82 is my favourite version of the song because of the intensely passionate, vengeful vocals Stevie Nicks delivers within it, not because of the lack of John's strong rhythmic bass...I think he adds a lot to the band and is without a doubt an indispensable part of Fleetwood Mac. Okay maybe Paul McCartney could fill his shoes but it just wouldn't be the same - the music would sound pretty much the same but the band dynamic would be fqcked. I do miss Stevie's Janis Joplin-style belting out of tunes like this angry demo and the Rhiannon live performances from the mid seventies to early eighties described by Mick as being "like an exorcism". Then Stevie finally learnt to sing from her diaphragm for every song from the nineties onwards and as a result of singing with her throat/breathing from the upper lungs during singing for 25 years or more her voice inevitably suffered.

Nowadays the highlight of the current tour appears to be Gold Dust Woman (which also rated well during Unleashed 2009) and the stellar performance of Stand Back from the SYW tour (well, Live in Boston 2003) has faded fast. Stevie still sings extremely well but she is singing songs that used to mean something 20- or 30- years ago and are not relevant to her current situation so some of that fiery passion is inevitably lost.

[iamnotafraid]

Originally Posted by michelej1

If ‘Say You Will’ were to be the last full-length album the band ever release, it certainly qualifies them as going out on a high note.

If they could still hit high notes that statement wouldn't
be so funny.

[mitzo]

I loved SYW from the get-go. To me it is a great SN album, with her strongest FM work since Tusk, mostly thanks to the choice of songs and yes, Lindsey's production (her solo work often suffers from ho-hum production). After a bit of a disappointment with TISL, to me, Mama was back in a big way with SYW. Lindsey's own stuff on SYW is, again like Tusk, too self-absorbed and inaccessible to me, too much screeching and faux growling and guitar soloing on into the night. Steal Your Heart Away is the only exception. Anyway I love SYW and am glad they made it. Although I only ever listen to roughly half of it