The Death Of Fleetwood Mac...Time

[iamnotafraid]

First off I had this response all written out and then through some
computer magic, I must have hit the wrong button and lost the whole
thing. So thank your lucky stars.

And now an edited version:

Bretonbaquet,
Of course some of my comments were meant to "antagonise". Much
like your "Steve still waiting tables" statemeant. I used the word imposters
to describe the members of the band that were there without Peter, Lindsey
and Stevie. As I've already listed in the other locked thread the real stars
were:

Peter, Mick, John, Christine, Lindsey and Stevie .

And that's it.

TrueFaith77,
How do I seperate Danny and Jeremy because they were there when
Peter left? That kind of answers itself. Peter was the heartbeat of the
band. Without him they just started drifting into a bland band.

And the reason I didn't continue the story about the band during
the Lindsey, Stevie and Christine years is because everyone already
knows about the amazing success that version had. Without finding
Buckingham Nicks the band would have been forgotten.

I love Stevie and Christine too (Stevie's the reason I became a Mac fan),
but without Lindsey they became a boring bland band again.

So even though I think Danny, Jeremy, Bob, Billy, Rick and Bekka are
talented, their versions of Fleetwood Mac Light were hurtful to
the band's image.

Does anyone on this board really think that Behind The Mask and
Time didn't hurt the image of the band. The band's brand was going
down, down, down.

It would have been really sad if that's the way the Mac's story would have
ended. Without The Dance and even the mediocre Say You Will
to give them real credibility, or a respectable legacy - those other versions
would have been the death of Fleetwood Mac.

[MacShadowsBall]

I appreciate your opinion iamnotafraid, but what exactly do you feel was the death of Fleetwood Mac - the Behind the Mask and Time albums themselves, or the new members. What in your opinion makes the albums so bad or individual new members so bad? Should the band had called it quits when Peter or even Lindsey left?

I notice you state your opinions openly, but don't seem to provide evidence to support your opinions.
If you got fired, laid off from your job, would you be going around giving your former boss and former company the highest praise?

[Silver Springs]

Not going to comment on the whole Time/Behind The Mask controversy, because people know my opinions. But how can you class Say You Will as a mediocre album? It was a fresh and intriguining responce to the years past and commentary on the world as it stood then and today. Where it may not have been another Rumours, it was still successful in its own right. It was the most commercially successful, from a chart point of view, album in the US since Mirage and it went Gold in the US and United Kingdom. They obviously did something right if so many people bought back into the "franchise.

[iamnotafraid]

Thanks for your responses.
I shall answer after the Miami
Dolphins game tonight. Which
starts in just a few minutes...

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by iamnotafraid

First off I had this response all written out and then through some computer magic, I must have hit the wrong button and lost the whole
thing.

Probably should've taken that as an omen and just left it alone. But, no. Had to "go there"...AGAIN.

Originally Posted by iamnotafraid

And now an edited version:

oh, f***

Originally Posted by iamnotafraid

As I've already listed in the other locked thread the real stars
were:

Peter, Mick, John, Christine, Lindsey and Stevie .

And that's it.

Off the meds again? Still?

Originally Posted by iamnotafraid

So even though I think Danny, Jeremy, Bob, Billy, Rick and Bekka are
talented, their versions of Fleetwood Mac Light were hurtful to
the band's image.

You really are mentally constipated.

Originally Posted by iamnotafraid

Does anyone on this board really think that Behind The Mask and Time didn't hurt the image of the band. The band's brand was going down, down, down.

Yeah, ME! The "brand" as you so derrogetarily refer to it already was tainted once Peter Green left the band, but thanks to the remaining members and all members that came along after that (Christine McVie, the two BW's, the CA couple, Rick, Billy, the two Daves, & Bekka) kept the band a working viable entity. The Rumours success was an anomaly, a curse, that the band would and will never escape from.

The fatal blow to the band was Rumours...and the proof of that was The Dance. Because they couldn't remove themselves from the Rumours curse in the meantime, they took a giant leap backwards and became for all eternity, an oldies retro band. Forget any future creativity, they were stuck forever in the Rumours quicksand.

[TrueFaith77]

Your logic still doesn't hold on the Jeremy/Danny not being the true Fleetwood Mac... because... your whole point is that a similar blanding occurred when Rick and Billy joined... which means according to that same logic... Christine was part of the post-Peter blanding and Stevie and Christine were (like Jeremy/Danny) around for the blanding after Lindsey left. Which means, you ACTUALLY only think that Fleetwood Mac is Fleetwood Mac if Peter and Lindsey are there: Mick, John, Christine, Stevie are all incidental according to your logic.

ETA: Now I understand. Peter Green is the heartbeat (he worked with Jeremy and Danny separately for example). AND Lindsey-Stevie-Christine are, as a unit, the heartbeat.

Your internal logic is sound.

However, to Chili's point--and to your particular standards--do you think the band's blanding began before Behind the Mask, with Mirage, in which the Rumours juggernaut proved to great for them to successfully negotiate?

My pov is conflicted: I admire and enjoy all eras of Fleetwood Mac and I see how that history participated in the three Off-White albums of the late 70s, which I regard as a pinnacle in ALL OF MUSIC. But if THAT brand were smudged, it began with Mirage, no?

Compromised though it may be (as we know as insiders rather than as fresh listeners, I contend), I consider Say You Will to be the greatest American album of the 00s. To put it in perspective, Mirage and Tango (both of which I love) wouldn't make my Top 50 of the 80s (I don't even know if they'd make the top 10 for their respective years!).

I have a friend who believes in the "brand" concept as well. Look at something like Roxy Music where every album must be perfection and for which Bryan daringly retired the name at its greatest financial and international success. For him, the Mac should have ended with Tusk. And he argues that 90s Mac didn't "look" right--and in part he intuits the compromise at the heart of them, in which certain artists may have been forced into the Rumours mold. I happen to think this means he is missing some wonderful moments and wonderful records (even Behind the Mask is a fascinating whole; I feel the cover captures the album's quality of being steeped in American folk/pop lore--of which the Rumours Mac were an undeniable part).

And, THUS, I feel that therefore the definition of the Mac is, in fact, held in the much-hated Time album in which Mick reveals that the Mac is his way of honoring Peter Green. And, THAT is as good a definition of the "real" Fleetwood Mac as I need.

Chili and I won't agree on the worth of revisiting Rumours on The Dance or on the more-than-a-fluke specialness of that phenomenon. However, I think the point is to call something the "real" fleetwood mac or not kinda misses the larger issue of how and where and why and to what point Fleetwood Mac became what it became at different junctures.

Just some thoughts.

[iamnotafraid]

Originally Posted by Silver Springs

But how can you class Say You Will as a mediocre album?

Well the Dolphins lost so I'll try and not let that affect
what I write about this band we all love and loathe.

My green eyed friend I do believe "Say You Will"
was a mediocre album. Mostly because of Stevie. Her
only contribution to that album was Goodbye Baby
(a song NOT about her abortions, as some think).

I imagine the outtakes of Destiny Rules goes something like
this...

Stevie - Lindsey I can't sing that high, lower key please...
Lindsey - I can't sing that high either, but just how low can we go?
Stevie - Can you still work your magic with the VSO?
Lindsey - What if I just whisper my lyrics?

They sound for the most part like they need their batteries
replaced or something. I do like a few of Lindsey's songs from
Say You Will. Even the much hated "Come". That song rocked
in concert. It's just sad to me that they couldn't put out a better
album. I think Lindsey and Stevie had their chance to shine
and they blew it. Less Stevie and a few Christine songs would
or could have made this album better. This album could have
been a decent solo album for Lindsey. But $$$ talks.

ChiliD and MacShadows,
I'll reply to you guys later.
I know it's killing you to know
what I think.

[iamnotafraid]

Originally Posted by TrueFaith77

Fleetwood Mac is Peter and Lindsey

Hmmm.........

[TrueFaith77]

Originally Posted by iamnotafraid

Hmmm.........

lol

see my revision

[HomerMcvie]

Originally Posted by chiliD

The Rumours success was an anomaly, a curse, that the band would and will never escape from.

The fatal blow to the band was Rumours...and the proof of that was The Dance. Because they couldn't remove themselves from the Rumours curse in the meantime, they took a giant leap backwards and became for all eternity, an oldies retro band. Forget any future creativity, they were stuck forever in the Rumours quicksand.

And while I once loved Rumours, more than any album, of any time, it truly was FM's CURSE. Good lord, they're still milking the shipper's fantasies, 34 YEARS after it came out. That, in and of itself, makes them jokes and sellouts, as artists. That's right, JOKES AND SELLOUTS. It's beyond pathetic...they've made the band's legacy, a joke. Because they're nothing but a Rumours TRIBUTE band, now. Acknowledging nothing from SYW, shows that it was a failed effort, and they feel nothing from it, was worthy of the fans hearing again.

Time was the best thing to ever happen to FM. God forbid that lineup had ever been given the chance to shine, though. I'm no Dave Mason fan, but B & B were great additions. But the jello mold had been set, and as long as Mick could talk S&L into returning, Mick could return to making his mortgage payments.

[louielouie2000]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

Time was the best thing to ever happen to FM.

Seriously? Peter Green the founder wasn't? How about Bob Welch, who pretty much single handedly kept the band alive for a half decade while it was slowly self-destructing? And who knows... without the rampant success of the Buckingham Nicks era, the band could have disentigrated long before the critically and commercially acclaimed Time was recorded... the album that was heralded by fans and critics as the savior of Fleetwood Mac and rock history alike!

I won't deny that Rumours was the worst thing to happen to the band. But I have differing reasons why I believe that to be the case. Mainly, it was all downhill from Rumours. The album was so good it just couldn't be matched ever again. On top of that it was so successful it's sales could never be matched. Not to mention the fact that one album alone has dominated the band ever since, and all of us hardcore fans are SICK of it. And I truly am sick of it... whenever I hear Don't Stop or Go You Own Way these days my stomach turns .

But it's not all gloom and doom, though. Via Rumours countless fans have been exposed to iterations of Fleetwood Mac they likely never would have heard. I know I wouldn't have even listened to the '70-75 era albums without having been roped in by Rumours first... much less been able to fall in love with that period. There is no doubt Buckingham Nicks kept the band alive for decades too... albeit at the cost of the band's soul atrophying.

While I'm responding to this thread, I just have to attack the notion that's upheld by a vocal minority that the Time era of Fleetwood Mac was more genuine than the Rumours one. To me, Lindsey's (and subsequently, Stevie's) being hired into the band was an organic thing. The band needed a new guitarist because Bob Welch was on his way out, so they hired Lindsey. After Stevie left, Mick knew he needed another pretty blond girl to get the band some attention and get some butts in the seats... hence his hiring of Bekka. To me, the reasons why Bekka was hired were far less pure than why Lindsey (and as a freebie, Stevie) were hired. But that's just my opinion. And while I'm just laying it all out there, let's not forget Mick, Chris, John, and Lindsey have all dismissed the Time era... and have all referred to the Rumours incarnation of the band as the lineup of Fleetwood Mac. And I agree... without Chris these days, it's no longer "THE" lineup, IMO... and the magic of Fleetwood Mac has evaporated.

Rant over... feel free to feed on me like rabid piranhas!

[ButterCookie]

On my god, you little troll.

[bretonbanquet]

I don't want to address the less lucid points that have been made in this thread, but I think a lot of fans overlook the fact that Fleetwood Mac haven't been musically relevant for a very long time. In fact, the last time they were anything approaching dynamic, and produced music that didn't originate from the 70s and 80s, was for Time.

Up to 1976, Fleetwood Mac always tried new things, new members, new styles - they were willing to take risks, like following Bob's idea of moving to the US. All of the members had contributed to this organic development of the band. Most had, at some time or another, been the individual thread that the band's existence hung on - that's certainly true of Peter obviously, but also Jeremy, Danny and Bob Welch.

After Rumours, the band's creativity disappeared. Whatever anyone thinks of Stevie and Christine, neither of them were ever musically progressive, not in the slightest. Lindsey was, and is, of course - but his creativity was hamstrung by being in Fleetwood Mac. Therein lies the popularity - people that are not musically adventurous like a band that isn't musically adventurous - it appeals to most people.

For Behind the Mask, Lindsey was gone, and replaced by a couple of guys who were talented and musically very capable, but not terribly quirky or interesting. Therefore that album is the most tedious of all the band's output (imo) - at least Time was interesting. Then they went back and lived in the 70s for the next 15 years. They basically felt, and were made to feel by the media and the fans, that they weren't allowed to experiment or take risks any more, and the Rumours stuff was all they were ever required to do. And (here's where I get crucified) I think the rabid Stevie fanatics were at the very crux of that. Anything that isn't Stevie doing the same old stuff, just isn't Fleetwood Mac to them. So Mac ceased to be a proper band, and these words "brand" and "franchise" rear their ugly heads. Those words have no place in music - music isn't about that s**t. So a lot of people are happy with that, including at least one person on this thread - fine. A lot of people like Big Macs too - doesn't make them good food.

[Meowi]

Fleetwood Mac late 1960's = Huge
Fleetwood Mac late 1970's = Epic
Fleetwood Mac Mid 1990's = ?

Thats my whole theory. To be honest, I don't like what FM had become. You can't just take prominent singers and replace with someone else. Now, that does not necessarily mean that Bekka and friends aren't good (I have never listened to time).

[TrueFaith77]

Originally Posted by bretonbanquet

I don't want to address the less lucid points that have been made in this thread,

guilty as charged

Originally Posted by bretonbanquet

They basically felt, and were made to feel by the media and the fans, that they weren't allowed to experiment or take risks any more, and the Rumours stuff was all they were ever required to do. And (here's where I get crucified) I think the rabid Stevie fanatics were at the very crux of that. Anything that isn't Stevie doing the same old stuff, just isn't Fleetwood Mac to them.

Absolutely profound. Note also how people always blame Lindsey for forcing her to make strange sounding records like those on Say You Will.