Mick and Stevie RULE!!!

[Cammie]

We were very much disappointed in the
way Mick sucked Lindsey in to do this record
and then ganged up against Lindsey to change
the bargin!Stevie and Mick were...definitely
in charge! John got three words in...but he did
tell Mick to "shut-up"! Lindsey was very kind to
John and John sided with Lindsey! The workings
of the band and the back-biting and tempers do
spoil it for me! I would take my SYW album back
if I could! Lindsey was worn down to a skeleton
by this fighting and the troubles! His jeans were
falling off him by the end! Glad they showed his
pretty Leelee calling him Daddy and his son Will
and Kristen! He is a proud Family Man!!! Good
thing he can go home to them at night!!! Sky

[CarneVaca]

The main impression I take away from this documentary is that Lindsey was fundamentally true to the ideal he had for this album. I owe him an apology because I criticized him last year when it was made public that the double-album idea was scrapped. I thought he had caved because of the money. I see now that he was slimed by Mick and no one stood by him. Stevie seemed more concerned with giving the record company "commercial" songs while Lindsey wanted to make sure the album didn't become too safe.

Kudos to our man,who is the main reason I started paying attention to Fleetwood Mac again six years ago. In a way, I wish he had followed through on his threat to Mick that he would pull his songs and go solo again.

[Johnny Stew]

I'm going to choose my words VERY carefully, so as not to start some goofy war.

But I honestly don't understand how someone could think that Stevie and Mick ruled the proceedings.
Lindsey pushed for a double-album... they eventually all conceded to his wishes.
Lindsey pushed for Mark Needham to mix the album... and despite Chris Lord-Alge being her preference, Stevie agreed to using Lindsey's choice after careful consideration.
Not to mention that Lindsey produced the album... most likely calling all the shots on arrangements, etc.

So, uhm, how did Mick and Stevie rule?

Not defending Mick here, but Mick explained his position... initially he was gung-ho about doing a double album, but as the reality of that began to sink in, he started to have doubts. I don't think he was trying to deceive Lindsey... he merely began having a change of heart. Which happens.
Stevie, for her part, was concerned that the album-buying public was not going to want to spend a lot of money to buy a double disc set from artists in their late-50s... but when the record company came back to them and said that they could keep the cost down, Stevie was then comfortable with the idea.

Just because Lindsey wants something, it doesn't mean the rest of the band should just nod their heads like mindless automatons. They are allowed to have opinions contrary to Lindsey's, without having to be painted as "the bad guys."

And for what it's worth, Lindsey seems to have gotten just about everything he wanted... Mark Needham mixed the album, and his "gutsier" material dominates the track-listing for the first half of the disc.
And it should be said that it was his decision to pare it back to a single disc after all, because he was afraid he wouldn't recoup his costs, if the band didn't tour for x amount of time, record another album, and then tour again.

From what I saw in the documentary, Mick & Stevie worked to make compromises that would keep Lindsey happy, while Lindsey didn't appear to make any compromises... even threatening to remove 3/4th's of his material from the equation if they didn't agree to doing it his way (material that was already meant for a solo album, that he had made the decision to recast as a Fleetwood Mac album).

Yeah, I completely agree that Lindsey is good for Fleetwood Mac, in regards to keeping them from "playing it too safe," but he should also realize that if he wants to keep that expensive mansion, and to buy his wife expensive diamond rings, then he's going to have to be mindful of the "commercial"/business side of things, too.

Life's all about compromises.

[BBALLGYPSY17]

Lay off, just when I was about to come in here and gloat about how I have a new appreciation for the man you go and diss my girl Least he can do when going home to them all night to show he ain't frail is to eat...*Smirk* And 'trouble' isn't in any one specific place, if the man didn't love the process so much he wouldn't be there
Politics are just that, politics and are you forgetting that in the end it was HIS decision to pull it because he WAS thinking about his family *cough* Food for thought sweets, No pun intended
On a final note I echo what Johnny Stew said. Compromise, as opposed to have 'Stevie run the show' or, what you might often dream about in your bed late at night, 'LINDSEY run the show'....it's about the compromise that lies between.

[Kelly]

I agree with everything you have said Johnny Stew, it was STevie who backed down and went along with what Lindsey wanted with most things. The mixing, the album length etc. Mick did not misrepresent himself to suck Lindsey in either. Lindsey 'asked' Mick to play drums on his GOS tracks and it went from there. This is a band with four people in it, who all have equal rights and opinions. Mick changed his mind and explained his position very well. They all want Lindsey to be happy but they also want to make money and have a successful album. Lindsey is the one in this doc who came across as demanding, pushy and like he had to have his own way or he would 'walk'.
I agree that without Lindsey this album would not be the masterpiece it is. His vision was a wonderful one and I am glad he pushed for his ideas, however he needs to learn to compromise a bit more. Overall, the special was great. It gave me a renewed appreciation for the hard work the whole band put into this project. I also never realized how involved they all are in every little aspect of things. I think STevie came across as very articulate, smart, creative and in touch with reality.
I will always support this band and nothing I could watch would want me to take my cd back. I love the music and listen to all 18 tracks quite often. That is really mind blowing to me that you would not want the cd anymore after watching such an interesting show.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Not defending Mick here, but Mick explained his position... initially he was gung-ho about doing a double album, but as the reality of that began to sink in, he started to have doubts. I don't think he was trying to deceive Lindsey... he merely began having a change of heart. Which happens.

Lindsey mentioned that apparently he found out about Mick's change of heart through some indirect channel. Or did I misunderstand that? This was during the footage with Lindsey in the car. I'll have to review it, but it seemed that something less-than-straightforward happened there.

Stevie, for her part, was concerned that the album-buying public was not going to want to spend a lot of money to buy a double disc set from artists in their late-50s... but when the record company came back to them and said that they could keep the cost down, Stevie was then comfortable with the idea.

Admit it, even you must have gotten a giggle or two from her rather naive 10-27-year-old-buyer comment. It was goofy and charming all at once. I mean, come on Stevie, teenagers aren't going to rush out and buy FM's new album. The Dance was different because a lot of kids had heard those songs in their parents' record collections and they were therefore pre-disposed to like the stuff. Frankly, I don't know too many 10-year-olds who rush to the stores for any albums.

Even from a business perspective, 30- and 40-somethings are the ones who would buy the album, and this group being more value-savvy than teenagers, would have loved to get a double disc. Besides, as it later became clear, the second disc would have cost pennies per copy to put out. It really was a non-issue and I'm still a little baffled as to why ultimately the idea was scrapped. It seems that fear, more than reality, drove this decision. I also was curious about Lindsey's comment that Stevie might drop out after doing 40 dates on the tour and it would therefore not be cost effective. Puzzling words, which seemed somewhat out of context. Had she threatened to do that?

Just because Lindsey wants something, it doesn't mean the rest of the band should just nod their heads like mindless automatons. They are allowed to have opinions contrary to Lindsey's, without having to be painted as "the bad guys."

I agree with this, and I don't think anyone was arguing otherwise. At least, not I.

And for what it's worth, Lindsey seems to have gotten just about everything he wanted... Mark Needham mixed the album, and his "gutsier" material dominates the track-listing for the first half of the disc.

Well, they went with Needham because Stevie didn't like Chris' mixes. Lindsey seemed to instinctively know who would do the mixes that would best serve the songs. And he was afraid Chris would do an assembly-line approach that Lindsey simply didn't want, and rightly. Here is another example in which Stevie was pushing for commercial and Lindsey was pushing for what would best serve the songs.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Kelly
Lindsey 'asked' Mick to play drums on his GOS tracks and it went from there.

Lindsey needed someone to play drums, so he got Mick. Makes perfect sense. Then Micks says, "Hey, you know what would be really nice? Let's get John to play bass." Lindsey agreed. Then Mick suggested they get Christine. You don't think Mick had an agenda?

This is a band with four people in it, who all have equal rights and opinions.

/

A band is not a democracy. Somebody has to take charge. Usually the songwriters have more say. And that's how it should be. The problem with this band is that the guy who really needs to be in charge, Lindsey, finds resistance from the other band members on a lot of things. I can see why he gets frustrated and hurt, especially when the rest of the band takes off for Hawaii while he's still slaving away.

however he needs to learn to compromise a bit more.

I couldn't disagree more. If you had told DaVinci, Picasso or Hemingway to compromise, they would have sneered. And rightly. Somebody has to be the creative force and have the vision. If the work has to have artistic integrity, there is very little room for compromise.

Compromise is overrated.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I couldn't disagree more. If you had told DaVinci, Picasso or Hemingway to compromise, they would have sneered. And rightly. Somebody has to be the creative force and have the vision. If the work has to have artistic integrity, there is very little room for compromise.

Compromise is overrated.

But SN should only compromise to LB (I am just joking )

But seriously, I thought this doc showed that they (all of FM) work well together. I mean FM is big time rock and roll that costs alot of money to produce and they apparently love to produce themselves in this costly way. So, if they want to record and live that way, they have to sell their product. Having to sell means making commerical music, which some view as selling out, etc. I do not view it that way. I think it is possible to do both. I think LB and SN in this instance did just that. IMO they balance each other out in a very good and appealing way.

Also, I think the statistics indicate that the under 30 year old buyers comprise the vast majority of the music buying public. Thus, the success of the rap stars (scarily in some instances) and the Brittany Spears of the world. So, I think SN was right on point that if they want to sell five million or more records they have to appeal somewhat to this demographic. The Dance certainly did.

[Patti]

Keeping in mind that we only saw a tiny snippet of the whole story, I think that Lindsey was concerned about only getting out 12 songs out of 22. In the end, they apparently all compromised to put out an 18 song single CD.

As for Mick betraying Lindsey, I think that's kind of a strong word. Doesn't Mick have a history of saying one thing and then changing his mind? He said he was all for the double CD until Carl Stubner changed his mind. I think we are all aware that Mick isn't the savviest business person.

I am also feeling that it's plain wrong to label Lindsey a victim of Mick and Stevie. He's a grown man with his own opinions. I agree with Johnny Stew, the other three band members are entitled to their own opinions. Being in a band is about compromise. If he truly felt strongly about his finished product, then he could have pulled his songs and gone solo. The fact that he CHOSE not to is telling, IMO.

Patti

[CarneVaca]

Strand, as I mentioned before, The Dance did well because it was familiar music, not because a bunch of teenagers were interested in buying music from old farts.

Stevie seems to want to recreate the 70s glamor. That's pointless and unrealistic. Stick with being an adult band and release the best music you can. Go on tour and make your money that way.

And guess what? That's precisely what happened. If they had only envisioned this reality a little better, they might have gotten rid of a couple of dogs that show up on the album.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Patti
Being in a band is about compromise

Where do people get this idea? Most wildly successful bands have one leader. And the exceptions are very few. Compromise does not good music make. Period.

[strandinthewind]

I agree they need to move on and I think they have. SN will never get rid of her Dickensian schitck. By the same token, LB will never get rid of his tortured artist driving a Benz in the big house on the hill schtick. Its who they are

I seem to remember, but am too lazy to check , that The Dance sold very well due in large part to FM reaching, albeit through familiar old stuff, the younger audience SN was talking about. More than one article from that period mentions this. They were like FM connects with kids of their olderer fans or something like that. In any event, I am glad The Dance did as well as it did, because we get SYW and TISL essesntially from the wave of commercial success of The Dance.

Now - let's get them back in the studio!!!!

[Patti]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Where do people get this idea? Most wildly successful bands have one leader. And the exceptions are very few. Compromise does not good music make. Period.

Just to clarify, Carne, I wasn't referring to compromise in the music. I was referring to compromise of the business decisions. And deciding whether or not to realse a single CD or a double CD was a business decision.

Back in the 70's I think one could consider that FM WAS wildly successful. Don't you? And I don't see where anyone was considered the "one leader".

Patti

[BBALLGYPSY17]

I believe that Lindsey takes raw material and molds it.. HOWEVER I do NOT believe that he'd be anymore worthwhile on his own anymore so then everyone else. There's times when you have to weigh critical triumph under commercial success, and I say, yet again, his artistic priority was given the back seat because of the smack in the face by reality. I love this man to death. His gift, his vision, but he even takes business into consideration. And any good 'leader' would. Which he is not. They all have their place.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Where do people get this idea? Most wildly successful bands have one leader. And the exceptions are very few. Compromise does not good music make. Period.

I think we will but heads on that postulate forever

Perhaps common ground is here - I do not view it as a compromise. I view it as LB wearing the producer's hat listening to SN's vision for her music, which he does very, very well!!!!