Anyone here who still really likes Stevie Nicks?

[secondhandchain]

Originally Posted by AncientQueen

Yep. See "Everybody finds out" as another prime example for this. All this years later, he still felt the need to mix his "Big Love" grunts into a great song, basically ruining it with this and of course the dreaded 80s overproduction. Worst offender on an album that generally suffered from an outdated, overly fussy production ever since it came out.

One of the best produced songs on the album. Stevie left to her own devices does STRAIGHT AHEAD boring production. Maybe you should go listen to her Tom petty Gypsy version. I bet you wish he was never around to produce any of her songs ever. She would not be the star she is today without him. END OF STORY.

[bwboy]

Originally Posted by DownOnRodeo

I need Stevie do the right thing and apologize and correct the public record and explain her decisions before I can stop getting the visceral reaction I get when listening to her songs these days.

Giving her a Rock A Little Hall Of Fame prize at this stage just makes it worse, not better.

Would an apology from Stevie really change how you feel about her right now? I think the ardent Lindsey fans hate her so much now that there's absolutely nothing she could do that would change their minds about her. If she sincerely apologized, they would say she didn't mean it, or it was too late. Or am I mistaken?

[cbBen]

You're mistaken at least when it comes to me.

I care not a whit about how sincere a public apology is (sincerity is for private matters). The content is the point.

An apology from Stevie would go a long way with me. I would evaluate only its content, not its motivation.

[AncientQueen]

Originally Posted by secondhandchain

One of the best produced songs on the album. Stevie left to her own devices does STRAIGHT AHEAD boring production. Maybe you should go listen to her Tom petty Gypsy version. I bet you wish he was never around to produce any of her songs ever. She would not be the star she is today without him. END OF STORY.

So you have a different opinion, okay.
I'm indifferent towards Tom Petty and I basically dislike the production of all Stevie albums after Bella Donna. I liked Lindseys production work until TITN, where his production for FM stalled. What was inspiring on Tusk, turned fussy on TiTN and got annoying on SYW. Noone will know where Stevie would be without Lindsey, we also don't know where he would be without Stevie. I tend to think that both would have had some success, as talented, goodlooking and driven they both were.

[AncientQueen]

Originally Posted by BigAl84

And if we REALLY want to get into outdated production....should we delve into Ms. Nicks' catalog for a minute? Rock A Little, Wildfart, OSOTM...they've all aged exceptionally well

With the possible exception of TISL imho Stevies solo work generally sucks production-wise (sorry).

[cbBen]

Originally Posted by AncientQueen

Noone will know where Stevie would be without Lindsey, we also don't know where he would be without Stevie. I tend to think that both would have had some success, as talented, goodlooking and driven they both were.

I agree.

Though Lindsey receives co-writing credit for his guitar work, the song that garnered the FM invite is Stevie's (plus she was the only writing when BN started, so they wouldn't have even had a record deal without her). Without them both, neither gets into Fleetwood Mac.

They were each good enough to make it, but needed each other to make it as big as they did, and with as much staying power.

[luminol]

Originally Posted by AncientQueen

.....and I basically dislike the production of all Stevie albums after Bella Donna. I liked Lindseys production work until TITN, where his production for FM stalled. What was inspiring on Tusk, turned fussy on TiTN and got annoying on SYW. Noone will know where Stevie would be without Lindsey, we also don't know where he would be without Stevie. I tend to think that both would have had some success, as talented, goodlooking and driven they both were.

I agree with you.

Stevie's production is terrible on her albums. It's one of the main reasons I simply cannot listen to them. They're so BORING. Like the demo of Juliet on the re-released Tango is SO much better than the finished track on OSOTM. Just so dull and unlistenable! What bad choices.

And while I consider myself #TeamLindsey and genuinely LOVE the production on Tango, I do agree with you on Say You Will. I wanted to love that album (I still want to love it) but I just don't. The production makes it a real snooze fest trying to get through it. I used to chalk it up to Christine being a huge missing piece that they couldn't really overcome in terms of chemistry... but I think if I'm truthful, it's too long, and the production just doesn't hold my attention. (There are a few tracks I love and I basically whittle it down to an EP when I listen to it). This is basically my first confession of being so critical of this album...sorry!

Lastly, I agree with Stevie and LB both needing each other to achieve their successes. They both brought important aspects to the table in the '70s to launch the band to the big time, and we all know how their personal drama fueled the flames of success in the public eye. Without each other, who knows... maybe both would have been big separately? Maybe they would have hit it big as a duo and gotten married etc? Maybe neither, who knows... fun to speculate, impossible to know.

[David]

Originally Posted by luminol

Stevie's production is terrible on her albums.

I don't think it's all terrible, just uninventive. It doesn't express any excitement about the potentialities of the recording studio. In Lindsey's astute metaphor, it's not dabs of color and texture on a canvas.

Consider something in Lindsey's catalogue that you'd never find on a Stevie Nicks solo album produced by Iovine or Hine or Shanks: Love from Here, Love from There on Law and Order. A lot of us think it's a throwaway—and maybe it is—but it's a quirky, inventive, creative throwaway. It's "purpose" as a track is not to highlight a lyric or a structure but to replicate in modern terms the brass and wind mix in traditional three-part jazz. Lindsey is super-creative here, thinking outside the box. He uses different guitars (one of them a Gretsch), effects (including a fuzz box) and settings (gain, overdrive, and all) to mimic the sounds of a trumpet (cornet), clarinet, and trombone. Not only does he duplicate the formal sound properties of each of those three instruments but he also writes an almost contrapuntal interplay of their melodic lines that simulates the arrangements of early jazz records, which obviously influenced him. Some of you guys probably consider the end result a wash and not worth all the "inventiveness." But I and I hope others think it's an exuberant use of the medium that dispenses with formulaic tropes in pop song recording. And maybe, as such, in its own little way, it pushes the art into a new direction.

This sort of playfulness and creativity with orchestration is just not part of Stevie's presentation. She's a more straightforward, less ironic musician who wants one thing from her instrumentation: vocal support. If you stripped all the vocals from the tracks on her albums and on Lindsey's albums (or some Fleetwood Mac albums), you would have a pretty bland collection of instrumentals in the former case and a fascinating parade of sounds in the latter case. Lindsey likes to build instrumentals first, and then lay the song and lyric over like layers of paint. He wants the underlying track to have a personality of its own. Kate Bush does the same thing. (In my opinion, they've both been intermittently successful.)

Then again, Stevie isn't really creating her instrumentals—the hired guys are, under the direction of the producer. Stevie's giving a thumbs up or a thumbs down, but she's not doing the painting. Imagine Stevie attempting to work with a synth or a workstation to use its full capabilities (not just plonking on the keys, which is what she is shown doing in some photos of her at a synth). It's hard to imagine because it would just never happen. The ONLY reason to strip the vocals off a Stevie Nicks solo track is to use the instrumental for karaoke (like Night of a Thousand Stevies). The instrumental would contain no intrinsic merit.

[elle]

Originally Posted by cbBen

I agree.

Though Lindsey receives co-writing credit for his guitar work, the song that garnered the FM invite is Stevie's (plus she was the only writing when BN started, so they wouldn't have even had a record deal without her). Without them both, neither gets into Fleetwood Mac.

They were each good enough to make it, but needed each other to make it as big as they did, and with as much staying power.

wow talk about re-writing history.

yes must have been Stevie's exceptional guitar work on Frozen Love that convinced Mick who needed a guitarist that Linds is it.

your last sentence i agree with.

[cbBen]

Without Stevie there is no recording of "Frozen Love" for Mick to hear. It's fair to argue that one added more value to the partnership than the other. I'll I'm saying is remove either from the equation and there's no Mac invite.

[elle]

Originally Posted by cbBen

Without Stevie there is no recording of "Frozen Love" for Mick to hear. It's fair to argue that one added more value to the partnership than the other. I'll I'm saying is remove either from the equation and there's no Mac invite.

lol ok. maybe we should start with what would have been if their grandparents didn't come to the US on the boat?

LB always said he started writing music because Stevie wanted him to.

[elle]

Originally Posted by David

I don't think it's all terrible, just uninventive. It doesn't express any excitement about the potentialities of the recording studio. In Lindsey's astute metaphor, it's not dabs of color and texture on a canvas.

Consider something in Lindsey's catalogue that you'd never find on a Stevie Nicks solo album produced by Iovine or Hine or Shanks: Love from Here, Love from There on Law and Order. A lot of us think it's a throwaway—and maybe it is—but it's a quirky, inventive, creative throwaway. It's "purpose" as a track is not to highlight a lyric or a structure but to replicate in modern terms the brass and wind mix in traditional three-part jazz. Lindsey is super-creative here, thinking outside the box. He uses different guitars (one of them a Gretsch), effects (including a fuzz box) and settings (gain, overdrive, and all) to mimic the sounds of a trumpet (cornet), clarinet, and trombone. Not only does he duplicate the formal sound properties of each of those three instruments but he also writes an almost contrapuntal interplay of their melodic lines that simulates the arrangements of early jazz records, which obviously influenced him. Some of you guys probably consider the end result a wash and not worth all the "inventiveness." But I and I hope others think it's an exuberant use of the medium that dispenses with formulaic tropes in pop song recording. And maybe, as such, in its own little way, it pushes the art into a new direction.

This sort of playfulness and creativity with orchestration is just not part of Stevie's presentation. She's a more straightforward, less ironic musician who wants one thing from her instrumentation: vocal support. If you stripped all the vocals from the tracks on her albums and on Lindsey's albums (or some Fleetwood Mac albums), you would have a pretty bland collection of instrumentals in the former case and a fascinating parade of sounds in the latter case. Lindsey likes to build instrumentals first, and then lay the song and lyric over like layers of paint. He wants the underlying track to have a personality of its own. Kate Bush does the same thing. (In my opinion, they've both been intermittently successful.)

Then again, Stevie isn't really creating her instrumentals—the hired guys are, under the direction of the producer. Stevie's giving a thumbs up or a thumbs down, but she's not doing the painting. Imagine Stevie attempting to work with a synth or a workstation to use its full capabilities (not just plonking on the keys, which is what she is shown doing in some photos of her at a synth). It's hard to imagine because it would just never happen. The ONLY reason to strip the vocals off a Stevie Nicks solo track is to use the instrumental for karaoke (like Night of a Thousand Stevies). The instrumental would contain no intrinsic merit.

and this my friends is why it's still worth coming around here!

[DownOnRodeo]

Originally Posted by bwboy

Would an apology from Stevie really change how you feel about her right now? I think the ardent Lindsey fans hate her so much now that there's absolutely nothing she could do that would change their minds about her. If she sincerely apologized, they would say she didn't mean it, or it was too late. Or am I mistaken?

In my case, it's just about needing some justification to be able to move on. There's none available to me so the moment. CbBen says it well. What's needed though it's for the apology etc to be commensurate to the aggregiousness of the act. Hence my request in a previous post that any return to FM by Lindsey require Stevie and the others to apologize yo Lindsey, husband family and all the fans at evrey show.

[DownOnRodeo]

Originally Posted by luminol

I don't mean to stir anything up (I'm new around here ) but... I'd love to hear how the song could have been epic. The reason it's snoozy is because, well, it's a snoozy song from someone who really wasn't contributing anything artistic to this album (yes I know the meaning of the song, and I'm glad she got help). I mean, sure, it could have had a faster pace? Is that what you mean? I'm not sure that would've saved it. I'd love to hear how this track could have been made better and not be one of the basement dwellers on this album (which also happens to be one of my favorites... the cassette that made me an obsessed fan at the tender age of 7 ).

Welcome to the room, Luminol.
Great post.

[vivfox]

Originally Posted by cbBen

Though Lindsey receives co-writing credit for his guitar work, the song that garnered the FM invite is Stevie's

Originally Posted by elle

wow talk about re-writing history.

yes must have been Stevie's exceptional guitar work on Frozen Love that convinced Mick who needed a guitarist that Linds is it.

your last sentence i agree with.

Originally Posted by cbBen

Without Stevie there is no recording of "Frozen Love" for Mick to hear. It's fair to argue that one added more value to the partnership than the other. I'll I'm saying is remove either from the equation and there's no Mac invite.

Elle, u misread what he said so if you read it again he was saying the words of Frozen Love were written by SN, and he knows the guitar part was played by LB but without the written words of Stevie, there would have been no awesome guitar by Lindsey.