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  #76  
Old 03-09-2013, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by redbird View Post
I think some people in this thread are confusing colorblindness with political correctness. For whatever it's worth, and that may not be much, I can't think of many activists I've encountered who would say that the two are the same thing.

As for why this might be, rock and roll was birthed out of musical traditions of black Americans (although of course there were important influences from the Appalachian folk/country tradition) but popularized for the white mainstream by white artists. Perhaps when that happened that music could no longer speak of the specific experiences of a disenfranchised minority so they continually sought out newer forms of expression. It's hard to separate art from sociology IMO, if you really want to understand it, even though it might be more comfortable to ignore the latter.

There's something possibly to the fact too that if you never see another non-white person at a Fleetwood Mac concert you might not ever feel like it's your place to be. There was an interesting article I read recently at MTVhive.com called "The Only Black Guy at the Indie Rock Concert" that talks about what an analogue of that might feel like. The author is probably not literally the only one, but it's easy to see how he sure could feel like it.

Anyway, things get branded as "for" these people or "for" those people. Some of it is maybe grounded in truth (it was hip-hop music that spoke for the experiences of urban black America in the 80's and 90's, more than other genres, so why would people who live that reality find other genres that don't even acknowledge those realities more relatable?) and some of it is less so. But once that happens it can be a self-feeding cycle. I think the thing that hip-hop and rap was able to do especially the 1990's was come across not only as "for black people" but also "for young people", because it was young and new, it was the new kid on the block. So a lot of young people can identify with hip-hop through a generational identity regardless of race. Rock music OTOH hasn't been the new kid on the block since the 1950's, the only thing that's going to appear edgy to kids now is either very hard rock or very experimental/obscure rock.

I'm aware that I've spoken in gross generalizations and nothing should be taken to apply to every single person ever. Individual variations always happen. Uh, I'll just end with a shout out to Skeetwood Mac, The Melker Project's mashup tribute to Rumours that features a lot of current hip-hop artists like Rihanna, Ciara, Jay-Z, Ludacris, 2 Chainz, etc. If mashups are your thing then some of these are really successful.
Wow, this thread originated in 2005!

As one of those minorities, I actually read every post in this thread, and yours resonated with me the most. It is, indeed, a strange feeling to be one of few non-whites at a Stevie Nicks or Fleetwood Mac, particularly in a metropolitan area where it tends to be more of a mixed crowd. But that's not really the case with Stevie or Mac. It's generally 98% white and 2% everybody else. But feeling uncomfortable in this setting is my own personal issue. I just don't like to stick out or draw attention at a concert. I'm just there for the music, like everybody else. But I have never experienced any racism at any Stevie Nicks or Fleetwood Mac concert. And the Stevie Nicks/Fleetwood Mac fans that I've met in person have always welcomed me with open arms.
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  #77  
Old 03-11-2013, 11:59 AM
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I dug out this article that I really liked in Pop Matters, We Were the World: 85 Word Aboard the Crossover Express. It talks about the cultural politics of music from a (not "the", as if there was only one legitimate one) black American perspective with much more authority than I can.

My dad and my uncles were among the first generation of recognizably educated black men. They were high-brow intellectuals with an image to maintain in the Chicago black community. During my toddler years, they mixed in their “white” albums and eight track tapes with communally acceptable black artists. Sinatra, Lanie Kazan, and the Association (yep—“[they] harmonized as good as the Dells,” swore my Uncle Jeff) were their kiddie porn, black people’s “race music”. It was music not be shared in “same” company, racially speaking; a fetish that could cause huge embarrassment and misunderstanding amongst “the peeps”, especially for my black nationalist, black is beautiful, “death to whitey” Uncle Jeff. They had no problem with their reading of Playboy and Esquire being public knowledge, but “that” music was listened to at low volume and with windows—car and home—closed, and was their way of setting themselves apart (and maybe a little above) their working and middle class cousins and neighbors.

Come the ‘70s, and the walls of my bedroom walls blared out with Sean Cassidy, David Bowie, and the Average White Band competing for space alongside Bootsy Collins, a shirtless and unsanctified Al Green, and the Jackson 5. Apartheid in music had vanished, “crossover” was the order of the day, and even some country spun on the turntables at black radio stations. I could go my own way, indeed.

...

We debated openly the messy politics of sexual lust and the respectful co-opting of “race music” as American race and sex politics in became less honorable and more contemptible each passing day until the ‘70s ended.

The ‘80s brought an unabashed and proudly apartheid moment in music. MTV entrenched itself. Music was to be seen and not heard. Artists that looked more carnival geek (hello, Joe Jackson) or over 30 (goodbye, Fleetwood Mac), no matter the beauty and intellect in notes and lyrics, found themselves the musical equivalent of a televangelist, stuck in the 3AM time slot, if their videos rotated at all—as was the case for black artists looking for purchase on MTV. Corporate entities that produced wire hangers and air fresheners bought up every radio station in America, leaving behind a hard-wired playlist not to be diverted from. Music for the respectable misogynist/racist/ageist/homophobe became the flagship of the American Cultural Armada.


The whole thing is a good read, IMO, and good food for thought. It speaks to the fluid dynamics at play when culture meets art (and when doesn't it?).

Last edited by redbird; 03-11-2013 at 12:02 PM..
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  #78  
Old 03-11-2013, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by redbird View Post
The ‘80s brought an unabashed and proudly apartheid moment in music. MTV entrenched itself. Music was to be seen and not heard. Artists that looked more carnival geek (hello, Joe Jackson) or over 30 (goodbye, Fleetwood Mac), no matter the beauty and intellect in notes and lyrics, found themselves the musical equivalent of a televangelist, stuck in the 3AM time slot, if their videos rotated at all—as was the case for black artists looking for purchase on MTV.
The only problem is that that's not exactly true. Fleetwood Mac's videos got lots of play on MTV. "Little Lies" even topped the MTV video charts. It was an MTV special that brought the classic Fleetwood Mac back. Solo Stevie, Don Henley, Glen Frey, Tom Petty, the Traveling Wilburys, Eric Clapton, Steve Winwood, Genesis, etc, all were in heavy rotation.

As for black artists on MTV, I think "Thriller" is still considered the most successful video of all time. I watched a lot of MTV, and I never really thought they had a racial diversity deficit. Look at the mainstream success of hip hop. You don't think Yo! MTV Raps! had anything to do with that?

MTV can be partially blamed for the downfall of popular music to some extent, but I think MTV actually did more to narrow the racial divide in the culture of music than not.
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  #79  
Old 03-13-2013, 11:52 AM
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I am African-American and I love Fleetwood Mac. I got into the Mac by listening to their music during AM radio during the mid to late 70's as a kid. My first FM album I actually purchased was Tango In The Night. I went back over the years and got all of the Fleetwood Mac albums. I love the Green era and the Kirwan/Welch era too!

I saw the FM in Mountain View, Ca on the Dance tour. I did not pay too much attention but I did notice that there was not that many African-American fans there at all. At the end of the day I go for the music and not to see if there are a lot of black folks there.
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  #80  
Old 03-14-2013, 09:12 AM
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Mary J. Blige said she liked Stevie's voice....Dr. Dre was interviewed in the studio once and Rumours was playing and he made the comment, "That's the real deal"...Destiny's Child and Beyonce asked Stevie to be in Bootylicious,...and Queen Latifah once introduced Stevie as, "my girl, Stevie Nicks.....
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  #81  
Old 03-14-2013, 07:04 PM
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Dr. Dre was interviewed in the studio once and Rumours was playing and he made the comment, "That's the real deal"
Thank you for this info. It's music to my ears.
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  #82  
Old 03-14-2013, 08:02 PM
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Mary J. Blige said she liked Stevie's voice....Dr. Dre was interviewed in the studio once and Rumours was playing and he made the comment, "That's the real deal"...Destiny's Child and Beyonce asked Stevie to be in Bootylicious,...and Queen Latifah once introduced Stevie as, "my girl, Stevie Nicks.....
Queen Latifah's song Cue The Rain borrows lyrics from The Chain. Stevie is credited as one of the writers.
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  #83  
Old 03-22-2013, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by SteveMacD View Post
The only problem is that that's not exactly true. Fleetwood Mac's videos got lots of play on MTV. "Little Lies" even topped the MTV video charts. It was an MTV special that brought the classic Fleetwood Mac back. Solo Stevie, Don Henley, Glen Frey, Tom Petty, the Traveling Wilburys, Eric Clapton, Steve Winwood, Genesis, etc, all were in heavy rotation.

As for black artists on MTV, I think "Thriller" is still considered the most successful video of all time. I watched a lot of MTV, and I never really thought they had a racial diversity deficit. Look at the mainstream success of hip hop. You don't think Yo! MTV Raps! had anything to do with that?

MTV can be partially blamed for the downfall of popular music to some extent, but I think MTV actually did more to narrow the racial divide in the culture of music than not.
Because the author implied that Lindsey's and Stevie's solo careers followed, I assume she is talking specifically about the early 80's. In the early 80's it was definitely a recognized criticism of MTV that they did not play many black artists:

Quote:
MTV was called to task on the air in 1983 for its lack of black artists by none other than David Bowie. At about the same time, MTV famously refused to air Rick James' "Superfreak" video. It defended itself by claiming it wasn't a rock song.
- source

Quote:
SuperStation WTBS launched Night Tracks on June 3, 1983, with up to 14 hours of music video airplay each late night weekend by 1985. Its most noticeable difference was that black artists received airplay that MTV initially ignored.
- source

Quote:
MTV's original head of talent and artist relations, Carolyn Baker, who was black, had questioned why the definition of music had to be so narrow, as had a few others. What's more, as MTV received more and more press attention, a growing number of journalists and music critics and black artists really began to slam the network for its segregated view of music. True, the critics said, album rock stations didn't play many black acts, either. But other radio formats did, and black music was still widely available on the radio. MTV, on the other hand, was still the only music video channel on television, and therefore, according to the critics, it had an obligation to expose black acts and to educate its viewers to what else was out there.

Perhaps the most vocal critic of MTV was black musician Rick James. Despite the fact that his most recent album, Street Songs, had sold more than three million copies in 1982, MTV had passed on clips for his songs "Super Freak" and "Give It To Me Baby."The funk star clearly wasn't pleased by what he considered a snub, so in early 1983 he took every opportunity to publicly call MTV a racist network.
- source

Quote:
When Michael Jackson came along, he was already an established star. That was good for all. He put a lot of money into the 'Billie Jean' video. It looked great and better than everything else that had ever come out. MTV executives to this day contended they added the video right out of the box, there was never any doubt. Everyone else, including all the record company executives and Jackson's manager said that's not true. Walter Yetnikoff, who was the very powerful head of CBS Record, said to [MTV head] Bob Pittman, "If you don't play Michael Jackson's video, we're gonna pull all our videos from rotation," which would have been a significant loss for MTV.
- source

So it seems to me like it was definitely a struggle to get MTV to respect black artists initially. And even once Michael Jackson changed that, it could still have been in the memories of audiences and artists alike. MTV helped once black artists stood up for themselves and demanded better treatment.

Last edited by redbird; 03-22-2013 at 10:05 AM..
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  #84  
Old 03-22-2013, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by GoldDustBoy View Post
Queen Latifah's song Cue The Rain borrows lyrics from The Chain. Stevie is credited as one of the writers.
yes:

CUE THE RAIN songwriters listed are:

BUCKINGHAM LINDSEY
FLEETWOOD MICHAEL
LYON ANDRE CHRISTOPHER
MC VIE CHRISTINE
MC VIE JOHN GRAHAM
MONTILLA EDWARD JOHN
NICKS STEPHANIE
OWENS DANA E
VALENZANO MARCELLO ANTONIO

Performer: QUEEN LATIFAH
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  #85  
Old 03-24-2013, 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by SteveMacD View Post
The only problem is that that's not exactly true. Fleetwood Mac's videos got lots of play on MTV. "Little Lies" even topped the MTV video charts. It was an MTV special that brought the classic Fleetwood Mac back. Solo Stevie, Don Henley, Glen Frey, Tom Petty, the Traveling Wilburys, Eric Clapton, Steve Winwood, Genesis, etc, all were in heavy rotation.

As for black artists on MTV, I think "Thriller" is still considered the most successful video of all time. I watched a lot of MTV, and I never really thought they had a racial diversity deficit. Look at the mainstream success of hip hop. You don't think Yo! MTV Raps! had anything to do with that?

MTV can be partially blamed for the downfall of popular music to some extent, but I think MTV actually did more to narrow the racial divide in the culture of music than not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redbird View Post
Because the author implied that Lindsey's and Stevie's solo careers followed, I assume she is talking specifically about the early 80's. In the early 80's it was definitely a recognized criticism of MTV that they did not play many black artists:

- source

- source

- source

- source

So it seems to me like it was definitely a struggle to get MTV to respect black artists initially. And even once Michael Jackson changed that, it could still have been in the memories of audiences and artists alike. MTV helped once black artists stood up for themselves and demanded better treatment.
You're correct Redbird. Quincy Jones and Micheal Jackson spoke about having issues getting MTV to play MJ's videos in the early 80s. Quincy did an interview right after Micheal died and talked about it again. MTV's resistance to showing more black artist is one of the reasons BET started showing music videos in the early 80s. As for Yo MTV Raps, that show premiered in the late 80s and by then MTV had changed their views. So when it comes to what happened in the late 80s, I agree with Steve that MTV did help to bring hip hop mainstream.

Last edited by Dreamz19; 03-24-2013 at 02:48 AM..
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