They Really Dropped the Ball..

[Mari]

I was talking about this with my mum today, because about ten years ago we had a similar threat of nature in the Netherlands, namely massive floods in the river delta's. Authorities evacuated 300.000 people. Every single one of them living in that area. No one stayed behind, or police would get them out of their houses. There was shelter for them in safe parts of the country, either at other people's houses, gym halls, etcetera. A massive operation, but it worked.
I'm just telling this to show, it can be done! It's not impossible! But the government has to take it serious and prepare the country for it. We've special organisations taking care of water protection and plenty of plans for disasters.

Fortunately for us in 1995 there were no massive dyke breaks and most people could go back home within a few days.
It could be a difference between our countries that the threat of water here's taken much more seriously because the damage it can do has been experienced much more seriously too, over history. But I don't know if you've ever had floods like this before there.

Excuse me while I puke for patting us Dutch folks so much on the back tonight, I did not intend to, honestly.

edit, on re-reading, I did not mean to say that all deaths could've been prevented, wasn't being that naive. But surely a lot of them.

[trackaghost]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

And I find it disgusting how everybody seems more eager to find someone to blame and condemn than to focus on the positives that people are getting saved and helped. It frustrates me that people like you believe they have the answers to everything, and therefore self-righteously going around proclaiming it. Did you read the answers about buses posted earlier? Guess what. It's not as simple as you'd like to think and maybe someone needs to tell you that. Sorry if you don't like it.

People are getting saved and helped... FIVE DAYS AFTER it happened.
Do you not see a problem with that?
I'm sorry how is that not incompetent?

[sodascouts]

Originally Posted by dissention

I never once claimed to have the answers, I claimed that this was handled in a way that is shameful. I find it incredibly hard to believe that this relief effort couldn't be more organized and put into action much sooner. Am I happy that people are finally getting out of there? You can bet your sorry ass. But I'm incensed that these people had to go for days without food, water, medical attention, or rescue all because of bureaucratic red tape, fingerpointing, and time spent giving lousy press conferences and setting up photo-ops. I'm incensed that politicians are congratualting each other instead of once making a statement in the media for those who are trapped, dying, and suffering not to give up hope. I'm incensed that these politicians are playing around as if this is some PR playground instead of getting their hands dirty and helping people. Tell the mothers whose children have been raped that the best job is being done, tell that to those who slept on the highway amongst dead bodies and rats for days. If you don't feel that way, that's you, but it takes some serious gall for you to attack the people who do with sarcasm and your holier-than-thou attitude that you enjoying parading about whenever you get the chance. My apologies if you don't like it.

Yes, many people made mistakes, but they did try their best. And there are politicians out there getting there hands dirty, such as Al Gore.

Again, it's easy to talk about the suffering and act as if the people who disagree with you don't care. Calling me self-righteous? Ha! Pot, meet kettle.

[EnchantedSLN]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

It frustrates me that people like you believe they have the answers to everything, and therefore self-righteously going around proclaiming it.

Wow. I'm sorry, but, ditto.

It's unrealistic to think that every single life could have been spared in a natural disaster of this magnitude. But it's even more ridiculous to think the preparation and response we've seen, given the information and resources we had, is the best we could muster. And I find it really condescending to chastise people for "griping" about massive loss of life (and we are talking about loss of life here; people aren't complaining about broken fingernails) when much of it was reasonably preventable .

[dissention]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

Yes, many people made mistakes, but they did try their best.

It's a shame that you feel that way. It's a sad time in this country when this is the best we can offer our suffering brothers and sisters.

Originally Posted by sodascouts

And there are politicians out there getting there hands dirty, such as Al Gore.

And then there are those who are watching Broadway shows and telling reporters that we should "bulldoze" New Orleans and not bother with rebuilding.

Originally Posted by sodascouts

Again, it's easy to talk about the suffering and act as if the people who disagree with you don't care.

It's not that they don't care, it's that they happily minimize the incompetence being brought forth under the guise of "trying their best." If this is their best, it's not good enough and it never will be.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by EnchantedSLN

It's unrealistic to think that every single life could have been spared in a natural disaster of this magnitude. But it's even more ridiculous to think the preparation and response we've seen, given the information and resources we had, is the best we could muster. And I find it really condescending to chastise people for "griping" about massive loss of life (and we are talking about loss of life here; people aren't complaining about broken fingernails) when much of it was reasonably preventable .

You sure hit the nail on the head with everything you just said, Tiffany.

[heyjupiter678]

Originally Posted by EnchantedSLN

It's unrealistic to think that every single life could have been spared in a natural disaster of this magnitude. But it's even more ridiculous to think the preparation and response we've seen, given the information and resources we had, is the best we could muster. And I find it really condescending to chastise people for "griping" about massive loss of life (and we are talking about loss of life here; people aren't complaining about broken fingernails) when much of it was reasonably preventable .

Well said, Tiff. I agree completely.

[sodascouts]

Originally Posted by EnchantedSLN

Wow. I'm sorry, but, ditto.

It's unrealistic to think that every single life could have been spared in a natural disaster of this magnitude. But it's even more ridiculous to think the preparation and response we've seen, given the information and resources we had, is the best we could muster. And I find it really condescending to chastise people for "griping" about massive loss of life (and we are talking about loss of life here; people aren't complaining about broken fingernails) when much of it was reasonably preventable .

I'm sorry, I didn't mean people shouldn't grieve over the loss of life. Despite what some may think, I'm not heartless. I do believe many people made mistakes and I'm sure they will work to correct them. What I don't believe is that those in charge were only to happy to let others die, or didn't care enough to help them.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Originally Posted by dissention

If you don't feel that way, that's you, but it takes some serious gall for you to attack the people who do with sarcasm and your holier-than-thou attitude that you enjoying parading about whenever you get the chance. My apologies if you don't like it.

OH P-A-LEASE Ms. Thing....

If anyone should know about sarcasm and a holier-than-thou attitude...it would be you!

[Mad4stevie]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9207190/

Storm’s victims unlike much of America
Census analysis shows how demographics of poverty contributed to disaster

People living in the path of Hurricane Katrina’s worst devastation were twice as likely as most Americans to be poor and without a car — factors that may help explain why so many failed to evacuate as the storm approached.

An Associated Press analysis of Census data shows that the residents in the three dozen hardest-hit neighborhoods in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama also were disproportionately minority and had incomes $10,000 below the national average.

“Let them know we’re not bums. We have houses. Our houses were destroyed. We have jobs. It’s not our fault that we didn’t have cars to leave,” Shatonia Thomas, 27, said as she walked near New Orleans’ convention center five days after the storm, still trapped in the destruction with her children, ages 6 and 9.

‘A different equation’
Money and transportation — two keys to surviving a natural disaster — were inaccessible for many who got left behind in the Gulf region’s worst squalor.
“It’s a different equation for poor people,” explained Dan Carter, a University of South Carolina historian. “There’s a certain ease of transportation and funds that the middle class in this country takes for granted.”

Catina Miller, a 32-year-old grocery deli worker who lived in the Ninth Ward, a poverty-stricken New Orleans enclave created in the 1870s by immigrants who were too poor to find higher ground, said she certainly would have liked to have left the city before the hurricane hit.

“But where can you go if you don’t have a car?” she asked. “Not everyone can just pick up and take off.”

‘Enough blame to go around’
Jack Harrald, director of the Institute for Crisis, Disaster and Risk Management at George Washington University in Washington, said emergency planners have known for years that the poverty and lack of transportation in New Orleans would be a significant problem, but the government spent more time and money preparing itself — rather than communities — for disaster.

“All issues were known,” said Harrald, whose institute had been scheduling a series of emergency planning community meetings through a partnership with the University of New Orleans. “But it was still a work in progress. ... There’s enough blame to go around for everybody.”

From the analysis
The AP analysis showed:

Median household income in the most devastated neighborhood was $32,000, or $10,000 less than the national average.
Two in 10 households in the disaster area had no car, compared with 1 in 10 in nationwide.
Nearly 25 percent of those living in the hardest-hit areas were below the poverty line, about double the national average. About 4.5 percent in the disaster area received public assistance; nationwide, the number was about 3.5 percent.
About 60 percent of the 700,000 people in the three dozen neighborhoods were minority. Nationwide, about 1 in 3 Americans is a racial minority.
One in 200 American households doesn’t have adequate plumbing. One in 100 households in the most affected areas didn’t have decent plumbing, which, according to the Census, includes running hot and cold water, a shower or bath and an indoor toilet.
Nationwide, about 7 percent of households with children are headed by a single mother. In the three dozen neighborhoods, 12 percent were single-mother households.
“It’s the same people who don’t have the wherewithal to get out of Dodge,” said National Guard Lt. Col. Connie McNabb, who was running a medical unit at the besieged convention center in New Orleans.

The disparities were even more glaring in large, urban areas. One of the worst-hit neighborhoods in the heart of New Orleans, for example, had a median household income of less than $7,500. Nearly three of every four residents fell below the poverty line, and barely 1 in 3 people had a car.

“I didn’t have much in there,” said Deanna Harris, a 57-year-old unemployed New Orleans resident, “but it was mine.

“Now, this is what I’ve got,” she said, patting a plastic bag.

‘Out of sight, out of mind’
The Ground Zero victims of Mississippi have much the same story. In one Pascagoula neighborhood, where 30 percent of residents are minorities, more than 20 percent live in poverty.

In Alabama, where Katrina wasn’t as severe, one of the hardest hit areas was a downtown Mobile neighborhood, where the median household income is barely $25,000 and 1 of every 4 residents lives below the poverty line.

“There’s not a lot of interest in this issue, except when there’s something dramatic,” said Carter, the South Carolina historian. “By and large, the poor are simply out of sight, out of mind.”

© 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

[sodascouts]

Originally Posted by dissention

And then there are those who are watching Broadway shows and telling reporters that we should "bulldoze" New Orleans and not bother with rebuilding.

And I argue that these are the vast minority. In fact how many of this type can you name? Or are you talking about the pundits who appear on the O'Reilly factor?

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Brwn_eyes0511

OH P-A-LEASE Ms. Thing....

If anyone should know about sarcasm and a holier-than-thou attitude...it would be you!

And yourself, too.

[amber]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

What I don't believe is that those in charge were only to happy to let others die, or didn't care enough to help them.

Well, they didn't care that a huge portion of them were living in abject poverty before the hurricane, sooo...
I think with the totally unacceptable way the rescue went, not to mention the nonexistent pre-evacuation help - Despite vast amounts of resources at the gov't disposal - in some way it's hard not to surmise that those in charge didn't care.
That's why people are so angry, because those in charge behaved EXACTLY as though they don't care. And what Mari shared about her gov't evacuating every single person before the threat of such a thing in her country only underscores this point, to me.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

And I find it disgusting how everybody seems more eager to find someone to blame and condemn than to focus on the positives that people are getting saved and helped. It frustrates me that people like you believe they have the answers to everything, and therefore self-righteously going around proclaiming it. Did you read the answers about buses posted earlier? Guess what. It's not as simple as you'd like to think and maybe someone needs to tell you that. Sorry if you don't like it.

Well, then let's look at the facts, not the BS. FEMA took control of the situation on Sunday at Gov. Blanco's request. When a Federal Agency takes charge, they are in charge, not the state, though the state must also simultaneously use its resources in conjunction with FEMA. FEMA and Pres. Bush acted ahead of time and outfitted the SuperDome and other shelters with food and water for two or so days in anticipation of tens of thousands being evacuated to them. They also planned to do house to house searches and rescue tens of thousands of evacuees. Finally, FEMA and the government of Louisiana have been planning for a higher than class 3 hurricane to hit NOLA for years and FEMA had an approved plan. So, clearly they knew this storm was going to be bad and on August 28, the Gov. of Louisiana specifically called on FEMA to execute that plan. Any talk to the contrary is not supported by the facts.

Then, FEMA is overwhelmed by the rescue effort, which it had planned for mind you. Also, FEMA refused what appears to be hundreds of private and public requests from to ship food, water, and manpower into NOLA and the other damaged areas. Yet, FEMA refused it. Why they did so is unexplainable to me. Then, it takes FEMA on its own and with the self-admitted constant observation of the Pres. five days to get food and supplies and manpower into NOLA and the other damaged areas. How is that possibly explained on any rationale level when, again, hundreds stood ready five days before but were refused.

Those are the facts. If you want to draw the conclusion that W and FEMA did nothing wrong and that five or more days is a reasonable amount of time. So be it. I think, however, if you were watching your infant die in your arms from starvation, dehydration, and heat - you might just be a little angry at the Fed. Govt., whose job it was to save you and your dead infant.

For the life of me, I will never understand why people do not get that and instead want to defend W and his glacier like second response to this.

On a related topic, I think the people that could have gotten out should have done so and that they did not makes me angey at them because they hindered the evacuation of the needy by comparison. But, I think no one is saying the really poor and handicapped should be faulted for not evacuating a town that has essentially two ways out in an evacuation and no public transportation to do so and a FEMA plan to put them in the dome

[dissention]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

And I argue that these are the vast minority.

Oh, I agree. The rest are too busy congratulating each other in press conferences and on television appearances.

Originally Posted by sodascouts

Or are you talking about the pundits who appear on the O'Reilly factor?

No, I'm referring to Condi Rice and Hastert.