Which Christine McVie song from Tusk is your favorite?

[elle]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Without Stevie, I doubt that Lindsey would’ve been “lost.” Lindsey was already in Fritz when he met Stevie. He was the one pursuing his musical aspirations already. Stevie, who was one year older, thought of herself as a poet and songstress, but she hadn’t done anything with those talents yet.

Fleetwood Mac was not the first time that Lindsey said that it’s a package deal. Even in Fritz he was the one who stood out to people in the industry. Sure, the fans may have been attracted to Stevie early on, even then. She said they all wanted to know who that mousy-haired girl was. But the music executives were not asking about her. He was the one who they wanted to give a recording contract. He dragged his girlfriend along then, too. Stevie is not the reason that they got the opportunity to do BN.

Plus, he may have been on the floor smoking hash, but he was also networking with other musical dopes smoking hash. Lindsey had friends. The money his aunt left him helped him buy nice sound equipment that kept people around him. He may never have become a star without Stevie pushing for that, but he could easily have become a player in a popular band. He would never have been Tom Petty, but he could certainly have been a Heartbreaker. Lindsey could easily have earned a handsome living as a superior guitarist and maybe have even written a couple of hits, if not GYOW.

so now I'll build on these nicely laid out facts by adding a lot of speculation and what ifs:

Lindsey invested a lot in their success early on, both time, effort and money. without Stevie, he would have been a working musician, probably a happier person for a lot of his life and while successful not nearly as cosmically / commercially huge as FM has been with both of them added in. but he would have been playing and making music, possibly produce more, and possibly play and sing in a different band. he had connections to a lot of relevant musicians at the time, and he still has tons of cred among fellow musicians.

probably without Lindsey, Stevie would have found someone else to hitch her ambition to, but that may not have worked out nearly as well and she may have ended up with a life outside music. she had tons of sex appeal and ambition. for all of their health, Stevie should have probably left FM after she first found solo success. of course, she would have not been nearly as commercial now in that case, but they could have all probably had healthier lives. well, maybe not Mick. looking back, it is actually really puzzling that Stevie came back to FM after the success of her first solo outing.

[UnwindedDreams]

Originally Posted by elle

l looking back, it is actually really puzzling that Stevie came back to FM after the success of her first solo outing.

What I find interesting is that even though she had a couple of top 10 album charters... Bella Donna was her only #1 and most successful whereas Madonna and Janet had more success with subsequent albums.
She says Wild Heart was just as successful as BD but it wasn't.
I guess she just stayed around FM to sing her angelic harmony and stay in the cool kids club.

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by UnwindedDreams

What I find interesting is that even though she had a couple of top 10 album charters... Bella Donna was her only #1 and most successful whereas Madonna and Janet had more success with subsequent albums.
She says Wild Heart was just as successful as BD but it wasn't.
I guess she just stayed around FM to sing her angelic harmony and stay in the cool kids club.

Wild Heart was hot with Stand Back.. but then faded with IAF. Nightbird didn't really do all that well. I don't remember it being in the top 20.

Keep in mind, I love all these songs. And at the time, they really couldn't compete with what was going on. Music was changing. After Wild Heart it was dicey.

[UnwindedDreams]

Originally Posted by jbrownsjr

Wild Heart was hot with Stand Back.. but then faded with IAF. Nightbird didn't really do all that well. I don't remember it being in the top 20.

Keep in mind, I love all these songs. And at the time, they really couldn't compete with what was going on. Music was changing. After Wild Heart it was dicey.

Stevie was changing her music too. All the synths and drum machines. Maybe it was people didnt think the quality of Rock A Little or Other Side was good. Couldn't that have been?

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by UnwindedDreams

Stevie was changing her music too. All the synths and drum machines. Maybe it was people didnt think the quality of Rock A Little or Other Side was good. Couldn't that have been?

Point taken.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by UnwindedDreams

What was Stevie's biggest contribution to the success of Rumours? Mick said in Play On that Stevie is not a musician, she's a vocalist.

She’s a singer songwriter. She writes lyrics, chord progressions, and melodies and she’s a brilliant harmony vocalist. Stevie’s stage presence, though, is what made her indispensable back then. Even then, she was the star of the show.

Stevie's biggest contribution to Rumours was dumping Lindsey then because her songs were also about her/him.

That’s exactly my point. Everyone uncoupling was the reason for the success. It’s the freak show. It was the freak show of Lindsey leaving ten years later that boosted the sales of TITN.

Other than Stevie's high notes, what's memorable about the song "Dreams" is the guitar work.

Mick’s drums, John’s bass, and especially Christine’s keyboards are every bit as memorable as the guitars. That was the epitome of a group effort. (I still love what they did on “wrap around your dreams”).

Gold Dust is all Lindsey with the multi guitars and Mick does very well after the Go Home note.

Except that memorable bass line that seems to get cranked another 10db every tour. That’s another band effort, especially Christine’s keyboard playing.

The band kept Lindsey from 75-87. They didn't choose Billy and Rick Vito to do The Dance in 97 or to make an album in 2002.

Who cares about Billy and Rick? They weren’t in the Rumours lineup, which was the whole point of The Dance.

They didn't perform songs from Behind the Mask in 2018 but they did Second Hand News, Monday Morning, Go Your Own Way and two Lindsey co-writes. What does that say about Billy and Rick?

Who cares about Billy or Rick? Outside of maybe “Do You Know,” I can’t think of anything they brought to the table that would have worked for either Neil or Mike. I was slightly disappointed they didn’t do “Freedom,” which was an obvious choice. That said, they did two Peter Green (later three) songs, a Danny Kirwan song, a Bob Welch song (briefly), and a song from Time.

ETA: I can’t state how strongly I disagree with your notion that any drummer could do what Mick does. Mick, John, and Christine have a groove that’s never been duplicated during solo shows. Take any one of them out of the equation and the song starts to suffer. But, the terrible, amateurish version of “Rhiannon” by Buckingham Nicks is really all the evidence one needs to hear what the Brits brought to the table.

[UnwindedDreams]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

She’s a singer songwriter.
ETA: I can’t state how strongly I disagree with your notion that any drummer could do what Mick does. Mick, John, and Christine have a groove that’s never been duplicated during solo shows.

Cher, Streisand, and Sandy Stewart are singer-songwriters too.

I think the groove during the BuckVie Tour was excellent. Jimmy Paxson has a muscular rhythym. Federico is a god on bass.

You should be blessed for stating that you disagree rather than dashing out the "Who cares?" response!

I thought you were of the mindset that Billy and Rick needed to replace Lindsey for good from 87 on!

The Dance was about making money. Wouldn't they have had the same success with legendary Billy and Rick rather than useless Lindsey?

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by UnwindedDreams

Cher, Streisand, and Sandy Stewart are singer-songwriters too.

And, I’m sure they would have sounded great in Fleetwood Mac...

I thought you were of the mindset that Billy and Rick needed to replace Lindsey for good from 87 on!

If the band had been serious about reinventing itself, maybe. By the time they came into the band, it was too late for that. Billy and Rick deserve credit for joining the band and being on a tour like that in less than two months.

The Dance was about making money. Wouldn't they have had the same success with legendary Billy and Rick rather than useless Lindsey?

The Dance was about making money BY REUNITING THE CLASSIC LINEUP. It was an event about a specific entity. Just like it would have been about making money and been a major event if they had reunited with Peter Green and Jeremy Spencer (in which case, Rick might have been a suitable substitute for Danny Kirwan).

[UnwindedDreams]

So then while planning a 1997 tour, Stubner and Kaufman saw having Lindsey in the lineup as attractive to ticketbuyers, right?

You have Stevie and Christine in the lineup for BTM Tour. Those are the two most people buy tickets to see. Not sure why they didnt choose Billy and Rick for 97.
Thousands don't buy FM tickets to see Lindsey.

Is The Classic Lineup the Rumours Lineup? Maybe it's the BTM lineup. It was a #1 album in the UK

[bombaysaffires]

so someone keeps moving the goalposts to suit their bias.

The question of whether Lindsey could have been successful without Stevie is unquestionably yes. He had the musicianship, he certainly had the technical interest and developing skill as an engineer and producer. Stevie had NONE of these skills.

Would he have been a "star"? The better question is, Did he ever DESIRE to be a "star"? The answer is no. So, if you aren't trying your damndest to be something, well, chances are you won't become whatever that is. Did Stevie have the DESIRE to be a 'star"? You bet your a$$ she did. Was it somehow inherited from the failure of her grandfather? Maybe. Was it inherited ambition learned from her dad? Quite possibly. She didn't express that she wanted to be an "artist" she expressed her desire to be a 'STAR'. And because that was her desire, that's where she put her efforts. Why kill yourself to have the discipline to be really good as a musician (a discipline Lindsey had. Did he learn this from the incredible athletic discipline of his Olympian brother, off to the pool to practice every day at 5am? Quite possibly. Did he learn it from his own athletic endeavors? Quite possibly). Stevie's discipline was directed squarely on making herself a star. The meant putting energy into finding people whom she could leverage to achieve that goal. (As to the claim she hadn't done anything with her musical interests before LB/Fritz, not so. She had been in a 4 person musical group called The Changing Times, which she described as like a Mamas and Papas group and they performed in coffee houses and the like. She hadn't considered a "real rock band" until Fritz called, and by her own reckoning she had to think, "Can I do this?" and then says she thought about Janis Joplin and "yeah I think I could do that" and joined.)

So could Lindsey have had a successful career in music without Stevie? Sure. Maybe not front and center onstage, but certainly as a musician (which he did to support them... her bs about him "never working" to the contrary... who went off and did gigs on the road to make money? Not her, him. Who was making money before FM, such that he had to think about whether he wanted to give that up to join...him, not her). One has to be very, very cautious when only taking her version of history. She worked a DAY as a dental assistant and quit. If we want to cite Keith Olsen, she did a sh&tty job "cleaning" his house, making a big show out of it and hoping her charm would suffice over her actual cleaning skills. She waitressed, but really for how long?? She came home to "all these guys laying on the floor getting high" but what were they working on.... demo tapes that she could just show up and sing on and never put much effort into making otherwise. (And LB did take on other gigs...he tells a funny story of working-- for about a week-- as a telemarketer).

She read a letter in the Sound City film that she'd written her parents during the BN days, and in it she is complaining to her parents how tedious the hours in the studio are and how she just doesn't know how long she can stand more of it (she does also state how gifted LB is as a player). Then they join FM and every.single.one. of her interviews in those days brings up "how hard" it is to be in FM, so hard it's "like being in the army"... and why?? Because she has to "show up on time" and "there's no calling in sick" and taking time off.

Ever watch the Destiny Rules doc? Where Lindsey is alone in the studio for days and days whilst the rest of the band is off doing whatever? Even when Mick and John are there laying down tracks, Stevie mostly isn't. It's only when things are ready for her to sing on that she's there. That's one of the interesting conversations between the two of them at one point... he reminds her that he's been at the house recording every day by like 10am or whatever while they aren't.

So this idea that because Stevie can sing and flutter around onstage she would automatically be a star is hilarious. And to that end, if you take the road crew at their word, her performances on the first shows FM did before making the white album were really, really NOT good.

As much as she desired fame, and despite whatever natural talent she had, she needed OTHER people to really force her hand to be disciplined about it... and to make smart choices to have the career she's had. Before The Dance tour in a band interview when Lindsey says he drew the line at BN doing dinner theater, Stevie is right there saying how she would gladly have done cheesy dinner shows. She relied on LB's judgement on many artistic decisions, and later on Jimmy's and even Tom's... who was the one who told her if you're going to claim to be a rock and roller, play rock and roll and stop with the cheesy synth dance music. He had to push her to "write your own songs" when it got tough and she wanted him to do it for her. How many shows did she do where she sounded absolutely awful because of how high or drunk she was? ("thish ish a shtory about a welsh witchhhh"). Not very professional; but being famous and partying was more important. She admits this in her Oprah master class where she says she looks at pics/vids of herself and thinks "Did you have to always be so high?"

[UnwindedDreams]

She's one to talk about persons laying down on the floor getting high after she was getting dangerously ****** up with cocaine. That cocaine probably did pure damage to her memory too.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

Not according to Keith Olsen. He was asked to check out Fritz and encouraged Lindsey and Stevie to leave Fritz and form a duo, and he told Mick that Lindsey came as part of a duo, to which Mick asked him to convince them to join.

https://www.premierguitar.com/articl...ds_Keith_Olsen

According to Stevie herself, they were interested in signing Lindsey, not her. Lindsey would not do it without her.

[michelej1]

I would say that Stevie’s voice is remarkable. She still would’ve had that even without Fleetwood Mac and even without someone producing her music. I remember hearing her with Kenny Loggins and I did not realize it was her, but I was still attracted to her voice. That voice alone could’ve taken her somewhere.

Likewise with Gold and Magnet and Steel, I was very drawn. I did not know Lindsey was associated with them at all, but I credit his production for making those songs magical. The same with Sentimental Lady, although I do not knock the other version.

I think Lindsey could’ve been a very successful producer for other acts.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by UnwindedDreams

So then while planning a 1997 tour, Stubner and Kaufman saw having Lindsey in the lineup as attractive to ticketbuyers, right?

Except that’s not how the reunion happened.

Lindsey tanked with OOTC and Fleetwood Mac was tanking with Christine leaving the band and Bekka and Billy set to make a duo album outside of Fleetwood Mac. At the same time, the success of the Eagles and Page/Plant reunions wasn’t lost on them. Since they were both in a bad place in their careers and would have more sway with the label together, Lindsey recruited Mick to play on his next solo album. As a result, Time was DOA, getting barely any promotion and no tour.

[UnwindedDreams]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

Except that’s not how the reunion happened.

Why did they have Lindsey as part of the The Dance tour if they could have Rick and Billy play the songs Lindsey wrote on Rumours? They're more successful and well-known than Lindsey.
As long as Stevie was in the lineup, they were golden. Stevie was having a career skyrocket from 94-96, right?

So it wasn't attractive to ticketbuyers to put Lindsey in the 97 Fleetwood Mac roster?