Anyone Else...

[GreenMagic]

reluctant to keep following Lindsey as an artist following Ken Callait's book?

Sorry I forgot to introduce myself. I've been lurking here the last couple of months but never bothered to register till now. As you can tell from my name I'm a huge fan of the Peter Green Era.

I used to be dismissive of the Rumours lineup years ago. Cause my musical tastes tended to be more Alternative, Post Punk Art rock stuff like My Bloody Valentine, Roxy Music, X, Public Image Limited. And then years ago I got into Power Pop like Big Star Raspberries and The Beach Boys.

It wasnt until hearing Tusk I became a fan of the Stevie Lindsey lineup. I can appreciate Rumours and self-titled album now. Although I'm majorly burnt out on those two because of radio, grocery stores playing them to death. And I loved Lindsey's solo stuff.

Anyway, getting back to what I was saying. I read Carol Anne's book and thought it had too many holes in it for her accusations of Lindsey's to be true. Then reading Ken's book, he talks about Lindsey getting mad and choking him. He also discusses how another girlfriend beside Carol accused Lindsey of hitting her.

To be fair I guess, Lindsey was doing lots of coke at that time into the 80's. From what I've seen with my family members abuse. coke can ramp you up. Make you irritable easily and more violence prone. And in Anne Heche's book she never mentioned any physical abuse form Lindsey. So I'm pretty sure he was clean the time he dated Anne.

So, a lot of the physical abuse could have been induced from drugs. I just dont know anymore. If Ken's saying abuse took place, I'm inclined to believe him. I dont think he has any reason to lie.

I'm lost. Even if it was brought on by drug abuse, I'm not sure I can behind someone who hits women. I understand musicians are human. I look the other way most of the time when it comes to minor indiscretions. I love Bob Dylan and Bruce, but they are/were huge womanizers. I dont care about that cause most musicians are.

The only thing that can stop me from being a fan is spousal/child abuse. I stopped liking John Lennon when I found out he severely verbally abused Julian.

Should we look the other way and keep being fans of Lindsey if his physical abuse was in the past and induced by major drug abuse? I guess I need some perspective.

[redtulip]

Personally, I think Lindsey is a changed man these days. He's settled down, married, had children, which I think has mellowed him. I also think he's been through a lot of therapy (just an idea I get from some of the things he says), that most likely addressed his rage issues.

There is never an excuse for abuse, but it was a much different time for Lindsey in the late 70s/early 80s. He had extreme pressure on him to produce hits for Fleetwood Mac, there was a lot of personal turmoil from the imploding of all of the relationships in the band, he was drinking a lot and doing cocaine. I'm sure all of that exacerbated any rage issues he already had. I think he's done a lot of work on himself since then to overcome these issues and change. He certainly seems happy these days and his family life seems to have been very calming and good for him.

[McTrouble]

GreenMagic - sorry if I sound unwelcoming to a new member, but I have to ask if you joined The Ledge merely to whip up another Lindsey bashing????

Did you think we didn't already know about this stuff? That it hasn't already been discussed to death?

Anyway, you will see from Lindsey's forum that his fans remain true and loyal to him - 'nuff said.

[HomerMcvie]

Originally Posted by McTrouble

GreenMagic - sorry if I sound unwelcoming to a new member, but I have to ask if you joined The Ledge merely to whip up another Lindsey bashing????

Did you think we didn't already know about this stuff? That it hasn't already been discussed to death?

Anyway, you will see from Lindsey's forum that his fans remain true and loyal to him - 'nuff said.

Viv, this is a discussion forum, obviously for both pro and con.

I realize that you worship the ground he walks on, but you shouldn't be so defensive of him, IMHO. Ignore the thread, if it drives you batty!

[McTrouble]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

Viv, this is a discussion forum, obviously for both pro and con.

I realize that you worship the ground he walks on, but you shouldn't be so defensive of him, IMHO. Ignore the thread, if it drives you batty!

Dave, it appeared to me like we had one of these newbies who join up just to cause trouble.

Really, is it a good thing to join a forum with a negative as first post?

[GreenMagic]

Mc -

I think you understand now that my intention was not to as you said "stir up" trouble.

I actually was going to do in your words "Positive" first post regarding Tusk.

But since I literally only read Ken's book a day and a half ago, this topic has been weighing on my mind. And I wanted feedback.

I did anticipate people saying Mick and John felt they were in no position to judge. I can understand even if I disagree.

The reason I disagree is their substance abuse never caused consistant and overly physical harm as a result. And Lindsey's at the time I stress, did.

They basically could have said "We dont act like sociopaths everytime we get under the influence, but you do Lindsey. Drugs make you a physical threat and we dont have that issue. Work on yourself or it's adios."

Pretty simple and to the point. But I don't know 100% if they were fully aware of his violent behavior under the influence.

So Mc doesnt misunderstand, I've become ok with Lindsey. After thinking about the fact he cleaned up and got therapy. But as stated previously if Mick and John had an idea how dangerous Lindsey was under influence and looked the other way, then I'll be disappointed. I'm already disappointed with them for slamming Stevie for not wanting to do another cash grabs oldies tour so soon.

She isn't their mother and they need to learn how to take care of themselves without expecting other people to do it. BTW I'll put up a more upbeat thread soon. Just busy jobhunting since I got laid off two days ago.

[elle]

glad to see a rational and civilized discussion in this thread. some of my thoughts:

when i first read KC’s book, i had somewhat similar reaction as several others. in my mind - although i do understand these are all unconfirmed allegations as far as we know – those two snippets from KC’s book (especially Christina Conte episode) confirmed that there is substance to what CAH described. so, i couldn’t listen to LB’s music anymore, i stopped providing LB-related musical info through social media, and was considering canceling the already booked may trip to see his solo shows.

after talking to some people who have actually personally known LB during the last decade and who insisted that the man they know now is not the man described in books listing events from 20-35 years ago, and a lot of additional discussion, i believe that all that therapy he appears to have been through in the last 20 odd years was probably mostly about abusive / violent behavior and substance abuse. and that he did manage to change – and a lot of classic LB talk about the importance and power of change is probably about the same thing.

the man you meet now is completely incompatible with the picture from 20-30 years ago. not just that he is incredibly nice and sweet as many others have described when talking about their experiences of meeting him, but he is also… well, for the lack of a better word – so human.

he definitely seems to have mellowed down. he may still be this crazy genius artist, or have a temper… but many people do – violent temper is one thing but actually crossing the line into physical abuse is another.

i feel fiercely protective of LB now, after being lucky enough to meet him several times in the last month or so.

however, if i would hear that he has not changed and [alleged] abusive behavior is still happening and he doesn't see anything wrong with it, that would be the end of my LB musical addiction too. period.



so to sum up - my 0.02:

abuse should NEVER be justified or condoned. by anybody. EVER.

but i believe that a person can redeem themselves and change. if they did, they should be given credit for it.

[WildHearted]

If the allegations are true, then I do not respect that version of Lindsey as a man, but that isn't going to stop me from respecting him as an artist. And likewise, I respect him as a person presently (as much as one can respect someone they have never met) because I think that it's clear that whatever happened in the past is in fact in the past, and he's definitely a very different character who has done a lot of work on themselves.

So, in short, no, it isn't going to stop me from following him. I'm not going to excuse his past behavior, but I do not think the Lindsey of yore is the Lindsey of today (no matter how little Stevie thinks they've both changed ) so it doesn't affect my perception of his work.

[louielouie2000]

Originally Posted by GreenMagic

Should we look the other way and keep being fans of Lindsey if his physical abuse was in the past and induced by major drug abuse? I guess I need some perspective.

Don't forget, Mick Fleetwood's book also chronicles Lindsey's violence towards women... even John McVie spoke of these incidents in on camera interviews. So it's not just Carol Ann Harris, Ken Caillat, and Stevie Nicks who have spoken openly about this subject.

For what it's worth, I think Lindsey is still very high strung, but it would seem his violent outbursts have ended. I'd point to his no longer using hardcore drugs, maturing, and becoming a husband and father. I don't think he's that insecure, tortured young man anymore. If I believed for an instant Lindsey was a wifebeater, I can assure you I would not spend my money on his albums or concerts.

[mezzoforte]

Oh, there's no doubt in my mind that Lindsey was abusive to Carol Ann and probably others. He's probably reformed after getting off drugs and doing a lot of therapy, but that doesn't undo the past, and I absolutely find it troubling.

Personally, I can separate that from the music and consider myself a huge fan. I understand why others may not. This one is a personal call.

[GreenMagic]

@McTrouble -

I'm not trying to stir up any trouble. I'm a big fan of Lindsey's. I just wanted some perspectives, because I was feeling uneasy about listening to his music after learning that.

I just read Ken's book day before yesterday. So it came as an honest shock. I've never read Fleetwood's book as it is out of print. Also, I've never seen any interview with John McVie or Stevie discussing it.

I just needed some opinions. I usually look the other way when artists make minor errors in their life. But physical abuse isnt minor, it's wrong. I guess I can forgive him that since drugs were influencing his bad behavior. And he seems to have gotten clean and have therapy.

But if it ever emerges one day he's pulling this stuff with his wife, count me out as a fan. I do think he cleaned his act up.

So you all's opinions were helpful. And that in essence is what I was looking for.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by GreenMagic

Also, I've never seen any interview with John McVie or Stevie discussing it.

I don't think there has been an interview with John McVie discussing it. On Rock Family tree, John made a strangling gesture right in the context of Stevie saying she ran across the room and grabbed Lindsey. I think he might have been referring to what Stevie said she did.

Stevie has discussed getting into an argument with Lindsey when he said he was leaving FM. The whole band was inside Christine's house. She says she jumped up and grabbed him and then he chased her outside, threw her over the hood of a car and she thought he was going to kill her, until their managers separated them. Based on the chronology in the interview the band did in the nineties, John seemed to have caught the first part of the fight and it looks like he was talking about Stevie grabbing Lindsey when he described someone (John doesn't say who) making a strangling gesture.

Rock Family Trees is on Youtube.

Stevie says: -

Because of that guilt I've always had about not leaving Fleetwood Mac..I flew out of the couch and across the room to seriously attack him..and I did..I mean.I'm not real scary..but I can be fairly ferocious...and I grabbed him..y'know.....which almost got me killed.

John McVie:

It got ugly...physically ugly..(John makes the gesture of strangling someone).

Johh makes that gesture right after Stevie talks about grabbing Lindsey. Stevie finishes her story:

He ended up chasing me all the way out of Christine's maze like house and down the street..and back up the street..and he threw me against the car.and I screamed horrible obscenities at him..and I thought he was going to kill me..and I think he probably thought he was going to kill me too...and I said to him.if the rest of the people in the band don't get you..my family will..my dad and my brother will kill you.

Then John mentions Lindsey for the first time while describing the fight. He says, he told Lindsey, "Why don't you just leave?" The joke being that he meant for Lindsey to leave the room, not the band.


Michele

[HejiraNYC]

At this point, all we really have are anecdotes, albeit, a number of anecdotes from a number of different people that, in their totality, appear to paint the picture of a man with anger management issues and a history of physical violence. However, there is no actual, tangible evidence that any of these episodes really occurred. The listener/reader is left to his/her own conclusions based on the information presented.

I would like to think that Lindsey's infractions have been grossly exaggerated for the sake of selling books. Maybe it's just me, but I have a hard time believing that slight Lindsey, perhaps 135 pounds soaking wet during the Rumours era, would have had the audacity to try and choke another man. And the mental image of scrawny Lindsey chasing (as per Mick's book) Stevie around the block, a platformed blur of hair and chiffon, seems downright comical despite the very serious undertones of the altercation. Perhaps we would be less forgiving if these stories were being told about a much larger, stronger, intimidating man? When I picture Lindsey fighting physically, I can't help but assume that he would make lobster claws with his hands and try to peck his opponent into submission.

[WildHearted]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

At this point, all we really have are anecdotes, albeit, a number of anecdotes from a number of different people that, in their totality, appear to paint the picture of a man with anger management issues and a history of physical violence. However, there is no actual, tangible evidence that any of these episodes really occurred. The listener/reader is left to his/her own conclusions based on the information presented.

I would like to think that Lindsey's infractions have been grossly exaggerated for the sake of selling books. Maybe it's just me, but I have a hard time believing that slight Lindsey, perhaps 135 pounds soaking wet during the Rumours era, would have had the audacity to try and choke another man. And the mental image of scrawny Lindsey chasing (as per Mick's book) Stevie around the block, a platformed blur of hair and chiffon, seems downright comical despite the very serious undertones of the altercation. Perhaps we would be less forgiving if these stories were being told about a much larger, stronger, intimidating man? When I picture Lindsey fighting physically, I can't help but assume that he would make lobster claws with his hands and try to peck his opponent into submission.

Stevie herself is tiny - 5'1", as I'm sure we all know. So the fact that Lindsey is slender/lean doesn't do anything water down the allegations, in my mind. Lindsey's much larger than she.... but regardless, that's all beside the point, anyway. It doesn't matter how large the attacker is... the point is, they are attacking someone. I personally don't think there's anything necessarily comical about ANYONE seriously seeking out to harm someone physically (or mentally, emotionally, etc for that matter), whether they're a 12 year old girl or a 30 year old man.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Maybe it's just me, but I have a hard time believing that slight Lindsey, perhaps 135 pounds soaking wet during the Rumours era, would have had the audacity to try and choke another man.

And if he had the audacity, the way it's described, Ken and Lindsey weren't next to each other. It wasn't like Lindsey made a quick gesture, a sudden strangle. Lindsey got irate because Ken did what Lindsey asked him to do and erased a tape and, upon learning this, then came from another room to choke Ken. It sounds like Ken had plenty of time to stop or avoid him if it was really a physical assault.

Michele