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  #61  
Old 12-17-2008, 07:00 PM
snoot snoot is offline
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Originally Posted by slipkid View Post
Bottoms Up is my favorite track. Green is having a conversation with his guitar.
Definitely has some amazing flourishes throughout, but damn if that isn't a lot of aimless rambling too. Throws me for a loop every time. Always wondered if he was high when he recorded it.

I'd be interested in other folks takes on Greenie's The End Of The Game.
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  #62  
Old 12-17-2008, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by doodyhead View Post
as for Kiln House:

I bought this Album when it was first released in US. My first FM album was Then Play On, I wemt back and bought English Rose /dog and dustbin re release as well as a double bundled FM in Chicago. These were released by Mike Vernon to capitalize on the belated press that FM got justt as PG was bolting.
Ah now we're getting somewhere. It's true, they were trying to capitalize on the belated press that FM got due to Green's early trail-blaze and those UK FM hits. But it should be remembered, most of the increasing acceptance of FM stateside early on came from Kiln House and beyond. Kirwan, Welch and McVie's tunes had as much to do with that than anything else. Only the very old guard of fans were into "Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac" at that point (and yet you could always find a respectable handful of them at every concert setting, some quite shocked at Green's omission). You also cannot overlook the FM "name" he basically established earlier -- that was definitely part of bigger picture.

It was considerably different on the European side. The British in particular, but also the Germans, Dutch and Scandinavians, had a harder time letting go of the blues centered FM. Many of them took the loss of Green as a loss of Fleetwood Mac, since they were raised on its blues-rock core from the get-go. Any way you look at it, the USA and Europe were different playing fields altogether. In Europe, PGFM ruled, wherein America, they largely went unnoticed -- especially when compared to other big name British acts of the day.

As time went on of course, and more peeps in the States came to discover FM, it was inevitable some of the old buzz surrounding Green and the early "three guitar front" would come to more people's attention. That's why so many on this side went backwards to discover the Mac's blues core.

Sooo ...when Kiln House came out I knew that Green was gone but I thought that Danny had such a great tone out of his Goldtop that he could shine on his own. When I hear the Album I was unprepared for what it played like. I had heard Mission Bell on the radio, Hi Ho Silver and Buddy Holly was, well, Buddy Holley.

Nowhere on the previos FM recordings did old school (I am dating myself here) rock and roll appear.


Well stated. Mirrors my own feelings at the time, 'cept I had a taste of what might be coming from the live setting(s) I witnessed. Still wasn't sure just how retro it would go.

This is the rock this one gets better with age. Spencer has impeccable timing
Station Man we hear in short bursts Dannys guitar tone, nice tune, not very edgy though
Blood On The Foor Spencer at his satirical best
Hi Ho Silver nice rocker good cover
Jewel Eyed Judy Pop here we go (this is for you snoot)
Buddys Song Jeremy got this down good
Earl Gray simmered in the pot too long, but fortells of Dragonfly to come( I also think Dragonfly is Danny's erie best
One Together space filler, nice song
Tell Me All The Things That You Do What I was expecting when I Bought the Album to begin with
Mission Bell Nice Cover, strange ending track


I'm impressed with your takes, much better than some of your "concessionary" MTM ones imo.

thirtyeight? years later the album stands up as a contiguous whole, is as an album higher on the list than many FM releases with better press.

On the button again (but please, don't bring up all those years now ouch). If only more of those post-75ers would give it a spin! They have no idea what a pleasant surprise lies in store.

PS. Some nice guitarmeisters notched under your "live" belt there. Even Alvin Lee in the mix!

EDIT PS. Jewel Eyed Judy rulez! It's where Mac meet the Beatles V. Never forget that.

Last edited by snoot; 12-17-2008 at 08:46 PM..
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  #63  
Old 12-17-2008, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by doodyhead View Post
Nowhere on the previos FM recordings did old school (I am dating myself here) rock and roll appear.
Well, and this is borderline minutia, there was the b-side to Man Of The World, called Somebody’s Gonna Get Their Head Kicked In Tonight. Also, there was the self-titled Jeremy Spencer solo album, which is essentially a Fleetwood Mac album (the backing band is Mick, John, and Danny, with Peter making a cameo). So it was there, but it's definitely obscure reference stuff.
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  #64  
Old 12-17-2008, 10:39 PM
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Default man of the world

i must confess that i did not hear man of the world or the b side until years later

Spencers solo album however i did
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  #65  
Old 12-18-2008, 12:47 AM
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Is there by chance a copy or link of that anywhere around here? I would love to give that one a listen, for old time's sake if nothing else.

There is a lot of myth surrounding that part of the tour.

I think much of it is based on kernels of the truth, but no doubt distorted over time. Like so many other things. Keep in mind, that was a six week tour Green participated in, so all kinds of things could have occurred over its course. I don't think we'll ever know how much myth supersedes fact in the equation.

As for the possible extended Black Magic Woman jams, anything is possible, especially on any given night. There was definitely an extra emphasis placed on jamming towards the end of the tour. For all we know, Peter may well have gotten bored with the Kiln House stuff - or just wanted to emulate what he did on that solo project he recently completed. After all, that's where his heart was at that time. But my suspicion is that this may be blown up a little, if it points to an entire concert based on riffing around one ditty.

The biggest problem, when looking back and trying to reconstruct events, is everything gets so damn cloudy. And I wasn't even stoned at the time! [Liquored up a bit perhaps, but definitely not stoned!]
Thanks to all of you for sharing your admittedly hazy but exciting memories
to us who weren't around .
There's 3 recordings of Peter depping on the spring tour:
February 19, 1971 SWING AUDITORIUM, SAN BERNADINO, CA
February 26, 1971 FILLMORE EAST, NEW YORK
March 27, 1971 ROCK PILE, LONG ISLAND, NEW YORK

Someone is playing rhythm guitar on the Swing tape, and it has to be Peter,
though you can't really tell. He plays very much a supporting role.
The Fillmore tape has a few Kiln House numbers and 2 20+ minutes jams,
where both Peter and Danny cuts loose. Sound quality sucks horribly, though!
The rock pile is basically 2 extended instrumental jams, a bit like "Madge".
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  #66  
Old 12-18-2008, 08:55 PM
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Thanks to all of you for sharing your admittedly hazy but exciting memories
to us who weren't around ."
Hazy is right. I'm lucky to have any brains cells left at this point.

Someone is playing rhythm guitar on the Swing tape, and it has to be Peter, though you can't really tell. He plays very much a supporting role.

That's Peter, only an unusually subdued version of the PG we all know.

The Fillmore tape has a few Kiln House numbers and 2 20+ minutes jams, where both Peter and Danny cuts loose. Sound quality sucks horribly, though! The rock pile is basically 2 extended instrumental jams, a bit like "Madge".

That's most likely Peter again, only with the robes cast. Never got that far east though.

I can only speak for two shows, and they were considerably different. The Swing was a small concert hall in ol' San Berdoo (San Bernardino) at the old Orange Show Fairgrounds. Been to it many times. It was a hitching post and stage stop for acts rolling up and down California, mostly between SF and LA (Anaheim, Long Beach, San Diego). Many stopped in there only to test out their stuff, make adjustments or set changes, etc. But most acts bypassed the auditorium altogether since it was kind of frayed and beat up, had benches for seating, and the acoustics weren't the greatest. But one thing it always had going for it was that it was always packed to the gills, and the very enthusiastic "inland empire" crowds always let the performers know where they stood!

Back to Mac. When Spencer cut out, Peter got on a plane from England to help out, bringing his old pal Nigel Watson. The band was in a state of panic, having just cancelled their gig at the Whiskey in L.A. Before the week was out, they all converged at the Swing. It was a multiple billing IIRC, but what really stood out was the total calamity of the show. QMS preceded Mac on stage. They were almost as big a wreck as FM at that time, with two of their guitarists "battling" for turf right there on the stage. What a hoot! At one point Valente even challenged the crowd, not sure if he flipped everyone off but there was all kinds of hissing and booing and plenty of fingers aimed his way. Now remember things were a lot different back then, and that kind of concert scene was not unheard of in the supercharged days of psychedelia. Quicksilver was a jam band so the peeps wanted to hear more of Johnny's (Cipollina) guitar, but ****in' Dino the dinosaur wouldn't have it (too jealous). The whole thing was pretty awful.

A bit later the Mac were up. Peter tried to give Danny support but could do little more than hang in the shadows since a lot of what they were doing was still unfamiliar to him (Kiln House numbers). He only stepped up and cut loose on the extended stuff. Danny tried to compensate but pushing things as far as he could. A lot of pedal work, some really nice grooves in there too, but it was quite an effort. It was also intermittent and definitely less than stellar, as the band looked shellshocked more than anything else, no doubt due to Jeremy's sudden exit. John was the only one who appeared "normal," Mick looked like he was on uppers - for all I know he hadn't slept for days. Christie I can barely recall, being off to one side, but her singing didn't seem quite up to par. Watson may have been playing bongos, but I can't even remember it. Overall, only a so-so performance but understandable considering what had just occurred.

The other event I can speak for in that tour Peter was much more in the mix, but once again things were stilted. There seemed like there was very little magic between him and Danny at that point, who at times looked bored (unenthused would be an understatement; the other members weren't far behind). Sad but there appeared to be a touch of tension between them, with no smiles or attempts to ramp things up to the max. The jamming was now much more to the forefront, with Peter co-anchoring the point. It was erratic at best, alternating between cool flashes of the old Mac with familiar riffs, and a bunch of abstract meandering and offbeat phrasing. Oh Well was still being done instrumentally IIRC, Black Magic Woman was in the mix at some point too. Both were extended jams but not like legend has them, going on for an hour or more. May still have occurred at a later point though, who knows.

I don't think Danny or the other band members were happy with the turn of events though, not losing Pete for good the previous year, then Jeremy's erratic plug-pull on the west coast, then Pete coming back with "terms" which only got more stringent as time went on. They were doing less and less KH material (which they were supposed to be promoting for sales!) that PG never really got into, and since he refused to sing his old stuff, it left them kind of straight-jacketed. Knowing Peter wasn't going to be there in their future, I think Danny started resenting him for wanting to do things "his way" at that point (and thus perhaps the flying bottle incident). Much of the jamming was improv and looseknit, at times poorly structured with riffs not always familiar to the audience. Then they'd cut into something old and cook a bit, only to soon morph elsewhere. Green was off on his own groove at that point, and my feeling was that the band couldn't wait for that tour to end so they could get off that bus once and for all.

Last edited by snoot; 12-18-2008 at 09:28 PM..
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  #67  
Old 12-18-2008, 11:13 PM
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I thought at the time (just from listening to the madge sessions on then play on that they were a better 1- 2 punch than the allman/betts or garcia/ratdog, bloomfield/bishop, Quicksilver, savoy Brown,or the two from moby grape.
Some still don't get the full impact of just how good a team they were, particularly on the DK side of the equation. Or is it that too many get led by the chain of all those smarter than thou critics?

Ah and I overlooked your brooklyn lad from earlier, Pappalardi's boy, Leslie West! Mississippi Queen still sees radio time even out west.

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Originally Posted by stubbie7 View Post
For my money, the best song on the album is TMATTYD. Danny's riff is just captivating. I think my favorite Jeremy song is Blood on the Floor. By the time I was listening to this album I was into Poco and Pure Prairie League (and many other "hippie/country" bands) so I actually began to appreciate this song as a well written tongue-in-cheek country and western bit of satire. I think it is a great song.
In the back of my mind I still often think of it as little more than a filler piece (from early impressions), and that tends to stick for some odd reason. But every time I sit down and give it a listen, damn if I don't rediscover what a crafty knock off it is, sung to full effect.

I think what turned me off initially was the Buddy Hollyness of it and now I even get that.

A little Holly, Elvis, Perkins, Lewis, Haley and Owens all rolled up into one! Call it a revisit (and nod) to rockabilly.
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  #68  
Old 12-19-2008, 11:24 AM
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A little Holly, Elvis, Perkins, Lewis, Haley and Owens all rolled up into one! Call it a revisit (and nod) to rockabilly.
I'm really surprised that Fleetwood Mac didn't capitalize on some of that Jeremy Spencer rockabilly stuff when Billy Burnette was in the band...that would've been right up his alley.

With Rick Vito & Billy Burnette, they were very close to ressurrecting the Green/Spencer combo. I think that's what appealed to me about that '87-90 lineup; they pretty much could cover the entire Fleetwood Mac history, but, for some reason that escapes me they never really took advantage of that (they did on the "Green" side with Vito, but not the "Spencer" side with Burnette).
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  #69  
Old 12-19-2008, 04:17 PM
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I'm really surprised that Fleetwood Mac didn't capitalize on some of that Jeremy Spencer rockabilly stuff when Billy Burnette was in the band...that would've been right up his alley.)
You bring up a great point. That would have been right down his pike indeed. After seeing what Burnette does for JC Fogerty on the touring scene, I couldn't agree more. Shame Fogerty didn't let Billy do even more! [But Fogerty is definitely alpha male, and hard to top on either the stage or in the studio]

With Rick Vito & Billy Burnette, they were very close to ressurrecting the Green/Spencer combo. I think that's what appealed to me about that '87-90 lineup; they pretty much could cover the entire Fleetwood Mac history, but, for some reason that escapes me they never really took advantage of that (they did on the "Green" side with Vito, but not the "Spencer" side with Burnette).

Lost in the Mac's ongoing identity shuffle, trying to cover the Buckingham deficit, while attempting to find a footing and platform all their own. Both are first class guitarists, that goes without saying. I think the only reason they're dismissed as lightly as they are in the larger Mac equation is that they surfaced in the shadow of Lindsey, and all that fame and glory that came before. They weren't really prolific songwriters either, especially Vito, so that didn't help. But I think you're onto something with the Green/Spencer combo revisit, as rockabilly is always cool, especially when graced with a more modern, updated twist.
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  #70  
Old 12-19-2008, 06:38 PM
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They weren't really prolific songwriters either, especially Vito, so that didn't help.
Actually, both were prolific writers. They had good songs that were left off the album because band decided to focus on Christine and Stevie. Billy has had his songs recorded by Ray Charles and Levon Helm, and Rick had a song recorded by McGuinn-Clark-Hillman.

Their careers should definitely NOT be judged by their time in Fleetwood Mac.
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  #71  
Old 12-19-2008, 07:41 PM
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Actually, both were prolific writers. They had good songs that were left off the album because band decided to focus on Christine and Stevie.
Remember what I mentioned before: Lost in the Mac's ongoing identity shuffle, trying to cover the Buckingham deficit, while attempting to find a footing and platform all their own. Shame they were circumvented in that way, with the focus targeted more on maintaining the status quo.

Beyond Lindsey's long shadow, I don't think it helped coming aboard in the wake of Tango of all things. Wonder if they knew or fully appreciated what they were getting into, especially Rick? As for stepping up, I'm curious what your opinion is of Behind The Mask, and more importantly, their specific contributions. Sad to say, but by that point the Mac had largely lost me, so I may not be the best judge.

Their careers should definitely NOT be judged by their time in Fleetwood Mac.

True. Fortunately both are held in the highest regards in music circles, even if they were somewhat lost in the shuffle during their tenures with the band. Membership in FM is still a good citation to have on your "resume" though, even if it comes late (Dave Mason notwithstanding?).
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Old 12-20-2008, 01:30 AM
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Remember what I mentioned before: Lost in the Mac's ongoing identity shuffle, trying to cover the Buckingham deficit, while attempting to find a footing and platform all their own. Shame they were circumvented in that way, with the focus targeted more on maintaining the status quo.

Beyond Lindsey's long shadow, I don't think it helped coming aboard in the wake of Tango of all things. Wonder if they knew or fully appreciated what they were getting into, especially Rick? As for stepping up, I'm curious what your opinion is of Behind The Mask, and more importantly, their specific contributions. Sad to say, but by that point the Mac had largely lost me, so I may not be the best judge.

Their careers should definitely NOT be judged by their time in Fleetwood Mac.

True. Fortunately both are held in the highest regards in music circles, even if they were somewhat lost in the shuffle during their tenures with the band. Membership in FM is still a good citation to have on your "resume" though, even if it comes late (Dave Mason notwithstanding?).


Rick Vito from Philadelphia (Phillies WS champs!), saw FM with Peter Green in late '68 in their one time stop for two nights at the Electric Factory. Vito was worthy of the throne when he was hired after LB's leave. (he is around Kirwan's age BTW) Billy Burnette's addition was a little weird to me at the time. Unless Mick wanted to bring back the Green/Spencer or Kirwan vibe, yet Burnette didn't take??? You don't need two guitarists to replace Buckingham. Who knows what was going on, at this point the band was in pop oblivion.
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Old 12-20-2008, 02:29 AM
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As for stepping up, I'm curious what your opinion is of Behind The Mask, and more importantly, their specific contributions. Sad to say, but by that point the Mac had largely lost me, so I may not be the best judge.
Well, my favorites from that album are In The Back Of My Mind, When The Sun Goes Down, and Do You Know, and I think Rick Vito's solo on Save Me may be the best post-Green solo on Mac album.

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Vito was worthy of the throne when he was hired after LB's leave. (he is around Kirwan's age BTW) Billy Burnette's addition was a little weird to me at the time. Unless Mick wanted to bring back the Green/Spencer or Kirwan vibe, yet Burnette didn't take??? You don't need two guitarists to replace Buckingham. Who knows what was going on, at this point the band was in pop oblivion.
Billy was an obvious choice because he knew the others pretty well. Actually, Billy was going to be on the Tango tour even if Lindsey had stayed. He had played in Mick's band, Christine's band, and recorded an unreleased song with Stevie Nicks. Hell, he even backed Lindsey on Saturday Night Live! Also, from a distance, they do somewhat resemble each other. I doubt it was coincide that Billy played a white Les Paul Custom on that tour or that he wore the same type of jacket and black button-down that had become Lindsey's signature.
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  #74  
Old 12-20-2008, 07:49 PM
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Rick Vito from Philadelphia (Phillies WS champs!), saw FM with Peter Green in late '68 in their one time stop for two nights at the Electric Factory. Vito was worthy of the throne when he was hired after LB's leave. (he is around Kirwan's age BTW) Billy Burnette's addition was a little weird to me at the time. Unless Mick wanted to bring back the Green/Spencer or Kirwan vibe, yet Burnette didn't take??? You don't need two guitarists to replace Buckingham. Who knows what was going on, at this point the band was in pop oblivion.
After all the time he spent in the company of folks like Mayall, Browne, Prine and Silverbullet (Seger), plus doing sessions work for damn near half the industry, it was hard for me to think of Vito as anything but a hired gun (ergo, temp) for FM. To my knowledge, he hadn't released a thing of his own prior to his time with Mac. Considering how busy he was contributing to the projects of others, this should come as no surprise. Burnette as we know descends from a well-known family of musicians, but those early solo efforts of his weren't exactly ground-breaking. Therefore I figured he and Rick, in a two-heads-are-better-than-one scheme, were choosing to collaborate to help shift the musical direction of the band but once again, with an approving nod from the existing players.

Unfortunately FM as a collective wasn't really looking to start fresh or anew, but instead continue with the same successful (aka "commercially safe") formula. Silly me, having hopes that this promising new tandem might create a marked shift in the direction of the past (appropriately modernized), by bringing the multi axe attack once again to the fore. After all, what did they stand to lose after Tango? But after giving Behind The Mask a run-through early on, I could see this wasn't the case, and never really fleshed it out further. Perhaps I didn't give it its full due, but that project - with all its hope - didn't exactly leap out at me (not fully its fault either, nothing FM was grabbing my attention by that point). Fact was, I was disappointed with what >> could have been <<.

Who knows what was going on, at this point the band was in pop oblivion.

Sad to say, that was (is) my general take too. Not solely from the BTM release mind you, but as a continuance of things going back as far as Tusk really. Spottier hit and miss productions, with an ever widening plunge toward pop goes the weasel. Tusk would have been a tighter production if it had been condensed to a single album imo, even with all those little gems found on it. Would have made for a more impactful and consistent follow-up to FM '75 and Rumours that way. As great a guitarist as Lindsey is, at times I think he could have broadened the FM sound more by bringing in a second gun for accents and additional counterpoint, especially as time went on. But if commercial sales are any gauge, that was far from needed -- plus he IS a magnificent axemeister as a solo hand, that's a given.

Could it be a case of Stevie overload at that point? Or just SOS POP FM in general?

Alas, I'm such a dinasour from the days of yore that I still long for that special instrumental offering(s) we used to get with nearly every FM project of the past. As noted earlier, not -ONE- since Buckingham took the helm AFAIK! Yikes.

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Well, my favorites from that album are In The Back Of My Mind, When The Sun Goes Down, and Do You Know, and I think Rick Vito's solo on Save Me may be the best post-Green solo on Mac album.
Now I know it's hard to draw an exact line between banality and genius when we're speaking of pop music (Vinnie take note), but I might have to give this a second look. I'll tab your notes when I do.

Billy was an obvious choice because he knew the others pretty well.

Maybe because he was also more malleable, you know, more of a no make waves team player?

What we needed was a Forgetaboutit Stevie! Pipe down Christy! STFU Mick! in your face change of direction at that point. Not more of this "Will you have some crumpets with your tea, Stevie? Oh, and how 'bout you Mick? Christy, my love?" Pfffft. Ha ha ha yeah, and pink elephants will fly.

TAKE BACK THE MAC! That's what we fossils from the past were shouting. [blush]

Actually, Billy was going to be on the Tango tour even if Lindsey had stayed.

Where did you hear that? Lindsey to spearhead a dual axe attack? Proof or FAIL.

Last edited by snoot; 12-21-2008 at 12:05 AM..
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Old 12-21-2008, 04:41 AM
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Could it be a case of Stevie overload at that point? Or just SOS POP FM in general?

Alas, I'm such a dinasour from the days of yore that I still long for that special instrumental offering(s) we used to get with nearly every FM project of the past. As noted earlier, not -ONE- since Buckingham took the helm AFAIK! Yikes.
Which is odd, as Buckingham Nicks has two instrumentals....

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Billy was an obvious choice because he knew the others pretty well.

Maybe because he was also more malleable, you know, more of a no make waves team player?
Maybe a little. But, he was already showing that he was willing to be a team player and that he had the talent to be on the team. But he was not as malleable as Rick Vito. Both, and Bekka for that matter, were a little too passive about fighting for their vision. But then they were going into a situation with very difficult emotions amongst the band. Bob Welch got lucky in that he got three albums before any real expectations were put on his shoulders.

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Actually, Billy was going to be on the Tango tour even if Lindsey had stayed.

Where did you hear that? Lindsey to spearhead a dual axe attack? Proof or FAIL.
About ten years ago, a very handsome man, now prone to indie rock, asked Billy out-right about it...
Quote:
Okay, a few more questions (though I bet Steve D. by now has already asked a couple of these). I vaguely recall reading somewhere that even if Lindsey hadn't left in 1987, you were probably going to be asked to at least be a backing guitarist/vocalist on the 1987 tour. Is that true? (Steve MacDougall, Columbus, Ohio, USA)

Yes, that is what Mick talked about.
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