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  #76  
Old 04-22-2003, 02:35 PM
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Johnny Stew Johnny Stew is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by CarneVaca
Johnny, you don't know if it's fake, just as I don't know if it's real fur. If it is real fur, how do you feel? It seems to me you've skirted the real questions here:

--Is it real fur? If so, what does that say about your idol?
--If it isn't real fur, why wear it and give the appearance you're wearing fur and needlessly risking controversy?
I don't feel that I've skirted anything here... and I also don't see how what I said could come across as a defense of Stevie (if she were indeed wearing a real fur).
The only statement I was trying to make, is that I think it's pretty safe to assume that it was not real. Practically a "given thing," if you will.
And that is why I can't understand why some people are so upset about this, without any true knowledge whether it's real or fake.

I don't think the wearing of faux fur gives the appearance that you condone the killing of animals, nor do I feel that it's inherently risking controversy if you don't come right out and announce it's faux.
So far I haven't heard one single statement in the press from Animal Rights activists, in regards to this appearance. Apparently they know when something is worth getting into a frenzy over.

And if Stevie was wearing a real fur, I would be disappointed... I'd even write a letter to her in regards to the matter... but that's as far as it would go.

I'm the kind of person who does not feel the need to shove my beliefs, values, and morals, down someone else's throat.
I will most definitely speak my mind, and let my feelings known, but I think people are more likely to listen to you, and be open to your opinions, if you don't attack them and brow-beat them.

Oh, and by the way... Stevie is not my "idol."
I can't think of anyone I idolize. I do, however, admire her greatly.
She's made some "mistakes" over the years, but who hasn't? It's not my place to sit in judgement of her, nor is it my place to put her up on some impossible pedestal.
She's a human-being, and the fact that she has successfully battled some pretty powerful demons, and that she's been rich and famous for nearly 30 years now, while remaining courteous and gracious towards her fans, is something worth admiring, in my book.
Quote:
Originally posted by CarneVaca
I'm pretty sure all the people who say they don't care about she was wearing would have something to say if she showed up in thong and pasties. No one wants to address that question, which tells me I may be on to something.
Not to sound snippy, because I really don't mean it that way, but I just figured your comment was so preposterous it didn't warrant a response.
I'm actually surprised to hear that you genuinely expected one.


(And for the record, I don't kill spiders or any other insects either.)
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"Although the arrogance of fame lingers like a thick cloud around the famous, the sun always seems to shine for Stevie." -- Richard Dashut, 2014
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  #77  
Old 04-22-2003, 02:49 PM
CarneVaca CarneVaca is offline
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Easy there, Johnny Stew. See? I suspected you ultimately agree with me, anyway.

I'm not trying to force my beliefs on anyone, believe me. It is up to each individual to see things for him/herself and decide on his/her own course. And that is why I said from the beginning that if Stevie wants to wear fur, that's up to her. But it does damage my view of her, which believe it or not, is still mostly positive.

As for the pasties-and-thong comment, yes it may seem preposterous. But think about it: How many people would shrug and say she can wear whatever she wants if she did that? I suspect not too many.

The point: Wearing fur is obscene to some. Just as wearing pasties and thongs might be obscene to others.

And, Dreamr, methinks you're confusing the law with morality. The law is theoretically based on ethics. Morality is something different. The question is, regardless of the law, is it moral to trap an animal specifically for the fur?
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  #78  
Old 04-22-2003, 03:07 PM
SmthngOfADreamr SmthngOfADreamr is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by CarneVaca
The law is theoretically based on ethics. Morality is something different. The question is, regardless of the law, is it moral to trap an animal specifically for the fur?
But ethics is pretty much the basis for moral rules in our society. Don't act like ethics and moraltiy are not connected. And the problem with both is that they are subjective, and because of that we'll never be able to say what is definately right or wrong. It's a personal choice. And if you're asking for my personal opinions, no I don't think it's moral to trap an animal specificlaly for the fur. And besides the fact that I would look rediculous, I would never wear a fur coat myself because I don't think it's right. But why should I infringe upon other people's right to choose and decide their own morals. The other problem I have with all if this is I don't see how it's any more humane to kill cows for food and jackets or shoes. I know before you justified this by saying we use the whole cow, but does that really make it right? Maybe yes, maybe no. It's subjective, and that's all I'm trying to say.
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  #79  
Old 04-22-2003, 03:07 PM
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Is it morally acceptable to kill an animal for its fur? No. Absolutely not. I would ban hunting for anything if I could. I personally think that hunting and trapping are only fair when the wild animals are equipped with guns & traps too.

Do I own anything made of fur? No, but then again, I live in South Carolina so staying warm isn't something I worry much about. I also adore dogs of almost any variety and wouldn't dream of skinning my own puppy or the neighbor's cat and wearing it as a fashion accessory.

Do I own leather shoes and purses? Yes. Love them and actively seek out leather & suede anything. I also eat meat, chicken, and pork, but I will carry a spider or insect outside instead of killing it (unless it's a fire ant--all fire ants must die--immediately if not sooner)!

I guess that makes me a woman of contradictions, and perhaps Stevie is too. I think she's entitled to wear what she wants to wear.

I'm an "old-school" fan and I remember back in the day that she used to wear a fur jacket on stage during "Landslide", until it was stolen from backstage during a concert, that is. Whether that particular jacket was real, I have no idea, but animal rights and anti-fur movements didn't exist in the 70's so I'm assuming that it probably was real.

And let's play devil's advocate here for a minute--what did we want her to wear when it was 30 degrees outside--a down jacket?

Can you actually picture Stevie wearing something so mundane as a down jacket? I'm still not over the ugly-ass shoes she was wearing, I don't think I could have stood seeing her in a down coat too!

And why aren't we jumping all over Lindsey for wearing a leather coat? Don't cows have rights? Or have we decided as a group to give Stevie hell for wearing fur and Lindsey hell for playing & singing out of tune (and therefore don't have time to harp on his clothing choices).
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  #80  
Old 04-22-2003, 03:16 PM
CarneVaca CarneVaca is offline
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Morality is subjective, but the law isn't. At least not theoretically. Arguing that it's OK to do something because it's not breaking the law misses the point of this whole fur issue. That was my point.

Now, once again:

If you're going to eat the fox, fine, then I would encourage you to definitely keep the pelt. Why discard it? It would be wasteful.

I opposed wearing fur for vanity.

You kill the cow and you eat it. You use the skin. What's the problem here? What is the moral equivalent between this and killing an animal specifically for the skin?

I think these points have been made, and we're beginning to circle back, so I am going to take myself out of this discussion now.
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  #81  
Old 04-22-2003, 03:23 PM
SmthngOfADreamr SmthngOfADreamr is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by CarneVaca
I think these points have been made, and we're beginning to circle back, so I am going to take myself out of this discussion now.
We all need to let it die because there is no right answer. I said before this arguement could go on for decades.

But just to let you know I understand where you're coming from about the vanity issue. It makes sense, and I do agree with that. The problem is other people don't feel that way, and that's where this argument starts over and over again....
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  #82  
Old 04-22-2003, 04:35 PM
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dissention dissention is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by paleshadow
I think it's great that people feel so pasionately about this, but morality is subjective. To say something is moraly wrong is to imply that your morals are the standard. This is a big world, and there are many cultures and belief systems that do not comply with our own, as a country or personally. To say that someone should be required to answer to anyone who asks them why they wear anything is ridiculous just because you don't like it. If someone came up to me on the streat and said "Excuse me, but what gives you the right to wear that" I would reply "I'm sorry, but I missed the part where you explained why it was any of your business". This is America, so you do have the right to express that you don't like something, but as long as someone isn't breaking the law (remember, moral law is subjective unless you have a red phone that dials God direct) then no one is "required" to explain their actions to anyone. I don't really buy the "desensitized" comment about killing in regards to fur trapping or wearing. If anything, we have become super sensitized to these type of things. Since man began walking on two feet we have primarily been a carnivorous, skin/fur wearing people. I think that people should understand eachothers differences, and respect them rather than just try to change them. Passion is great, but not when it deteriorates into a false sense of moral supremacy.
Well, when someone skins a human being and wears their carcass out on the town, you have NO right to question them for their fashion sense or lack thereof. After all, morals are subjective.

Gimme a break. It is morally wrong to kill just to make yourself look good. There is a big difference with being carnivorous (aka eating meat) and skinning the hides of innocent animals just to wear them and no other purpose. That's what we have winter coats made out of cotton and vinyl.

Why kill when it isn't necessary?
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