Should Bob Brunning be regarded as a member of Fleetwood Mac?

[wetcamelfood]

3 that are known of, LGM (as Chris said) & the 1st Rambling Pony (on backing vocals, no bass on track) & I Believe My Time Ain't Long and there may be more. Live stuff too as Chili says, (Windsor, Marquee) though it does seem McVie joined/Bruns left closer to Sept of '67 (I think the later live dates story was extrapolated from documents Bruns had in his books of upcoming gigs he would've played at w/FM through Dec if he was still there but the Savoy Brown single Bruns was on as a SB member dates from Sept '67 so he must've still had the list but not played on the later dates but regardless of length or # of recordings, he was announced to the press/public by the band as a member. Heck, there have been bands that have had members who NEVER recorded with the bands, just live stuff etc.

As for the USC band, I asked the USC who was in the USC band when they recorded Tusk for the discog and they wouldn't tell me (for legal reasons) but undoubtedly, the USC must've had some in the USC band with short tenures but I doubt their "membership" was taken away, JMHO though.

John

[wetcamelfood]

Originally Posted by sharksfan2000

According to Mike Vernon's notes in the Complete Blue Horizons Sessions box set, Brunning also played bass on "I Believe My Time Ain't Long" and probably contributed backing vocals on "Rambling Pony". And as chiliD notes, he played a number of shows during his tenure in the band (the number varies depending on the source - according to Christopher Hjort's book, it may have been as few as 10 shows, while both Fleetwood's and Brunning's books imply it was considerably more).

But there's no denying that he was an original part of the band, and regardless of what you may think of Brunning's book or anything else about him, by definition he was a band member. And an anecdote from Fleetwood's book shows that's how other band members thought of him - he notes that Peter Green had Brunning step up to the mike to announce the first song they ever played at their debut gig at Windsor! You think Green would have had someone he didn't consider a fellow band member - even one he may have hoped would be replaced at some point - do that?

You beat me to it sharksfan!

John

[Wouter Vuijk]

Consider the following:

A group of friends like to play music together. They decide to start a band, give it a name (Bleedwould Cams), and for a couple of months (perhaps upto a full year) they rehearse, write songs (or maybe just one or two of them) and have fun together. They did not have a gig (yet). Then, for some obscure reason, one or two of them (let's assume two brothers) move to another city, approximately 200 miles (could be kilometers if they don't live in the States or Britain) away. The two remaining guys decide that the band does not exist without the two brothers and the band stops. Each member follows his own musical path from then.

Twenty years later a question arises: were they ever member of this band?
They did not play live,
They did not record.

Luckily I ran into a discussion on this Ledge about Bob Brunning and Fleetwood Mac.
Still haven't got an answer

[chriskisn]

Originally Posted by Wouter Vuijk

Consider the following:

A group of friends like to play music together. They decide to start a band, give it a name (Bleedwould Cams), and for a couple of months (perhaps upto a full year) they rehearse, write songs (or maybe just one or two of them) and have fun together. They did not have a gig (yet). Then, for some obscure reason, one or two of them (let's assume two brothers) move to another city, approximately 200 miles (could be kilometers if they don't live in the States or Britain) away. The two remaining guys decide that the band does not exist without the two brothers and the band stops. Each member follows his own musical path from then.

Twenty years later a question arises: were they ever member of this band?
They did not play live,
They did not record.

Luckily I ran into a discussion on this Ledge about Bob Brunning and Fleetwood Mac.
Still haven't got an answer

Well to my opinion of course they were members of the band. They may sit back in later years and say (or if they become famous - in an interview) "when I was 21 I was in a band called Bleedwould Cams". Surely they wouldn't deny all knowledge?

[chriskisn]

Originally Posted by wetcamelfood

though it does seem McVie joined/Bruns left closer to Sept of '67

In Mick's book however (taken with a grain of salt I know) he says (refering to the pre-McVie days):

"We spent the autum of 1967 doing our venues - the 100 Club and the Marquee Club in London, Sheffield University, Bradford College, the Nottingham Boat Club, Enfield Technical College and clubs all over Wolverhampton, North Wales, Manchester, Brighton, Grimbsy, Leicester. We played Cook's Ferry Inn and The Chelsea Cat. We honed our raw and vulgar blues music almost every night for three months until we were as tight as a drumhead."

"Then John McVie decided to join Fleetwood Mac, at least. It was December 1967, and we were playing the Ram Jam Club in Brixton when we got the call..."


I take two things away from this (assuming Mick's memory is correct).

There were a hell of a lot more gigs than just 10... (the ones he mentioned above were after the two sets they played at the Windsor Jazz and Blues Festival).

PLUS

If they spent the autumn of 1967 playing with Brunning that would be (equinoxes aside) covering the months of September, October and November.

I'll have to dig out Brunning's book to see what he says about the matter...

EDIT

Ok looking at Brunning's book he lists gig dates from August 13th 1967 (Windsor) though to December 10th (Turnstall). He lists over 20 gigs between 4th October and 10th December.

[Author]

The gigs listed in Brunning's book are with Chicken Shack and not Fleetwood Mac, despite Bob's claim. John McVie was definitely with Fleetwood Mac by September 17, 1967 - perhaps even a few days earlier.

[chriskisn]

Originally Posted by Author

The gigs listed in Brunning's book are with Chicken Shack and not Fleetwood Mac, despite Bob's claim. John McVie was definitely with Fleetwood Mac by September 17, 1967 - perhaps even a few days earlier.

Ok so is there any documented evidence of this other than the fact that the Savoy Brown single that Brunning is on is apparently from September 1967?

Basically this means that the memories of two of the four men who were there are wrong?

Oh and I assume you mean Savoy Brown not Chicken Shack?

EDIT:

Ok to make this whole issue more confusing - reading Martin Celmin's PG biography, he states that Brunning began rehearsals with the band in July 67 (which I think everyone tends to agree on?); McVie joined them three weeks after the Windsor Festival, and that on Sept 9 Melody Maker announced that bassist Paul Williams was joining Mayall to replace McVie who had joined FM.

So the only definite way to solve this is to find a copy of Melody Maker from Sept 9 and confirm this

[wetcamelfood]

I agree with Author, really we can't go by Mick, he also says in that same book he played on the Bluesbreakers Curly/Rubber Duck single (which we know is wrong). Sorry Mick, John Tracy of Decca has a better rep than you for facts.

John

[wetcamelfood]

Meant to reierate, sorry to Bob, but just because he lists those dates to Dec, even if they were Mac dates, it doesn't mean he ended up playing them. Sort of like if this month at work your boss gives you an assignment to work on in October, you write it down put it in your poicket then you leave that job in Sept. You'll still have that piece of paper kicking around saying you were to do this in Oct but since you left in Sept, you ain't doin' it.

Also, we can't go by length of time, take Hungry Fighter which lasted all of one gig, does this mean neither Walker nor Kirwan were members of the group becuase it only lasted one gig (i.e. too short a time)?

As for the Bleedwould Cams senario, that can happen too, take Led Zep, though they did reform through the years as we know, they did say they couldn't continue in any realistic way after the loss of Bonzo.

Even if no recording of gigs, I think we should respect who they say are members. Just sayin'.

John

[sharksfan2000]

Originally Posted by chriskisn

Ok so is there any documented evidence of this other than the fact that the Savoy Brown single that Brunning is on is apparently from September 1967?

Basically this means that the memories of two of the four men who were there are wrong?

Oh and I assume you mean Savoy Brown not Chicken Shack?

EDIT:

Ok to make this whole issue more confusing - reading Martin Celmin's PG biography, he states that Brunning began rehearsals with the band in July 67 (which I think everyone tends to agree on?); McVie joined them three weeks after the Windsor Festival, and that on Sept 9 Melody Maker announced that bassist Paul Williams was joining Mayall to replace McVie who had joined FM.

So the only definite way to solve this is to find a copy of Melody Maker from Sept 9 and confirm this

I think your edit info makes matters more than clear. As wetcamelfood notes, Mick Fleetwood's book has numerous errors and can't really be relied upon for things like how long Brunning was in the band. And Brunning has had a long history of puffing up his brief membership in Fleetwood Mac into something more significant than it was (it wasn't enough just being an original member?).

More detail from Christopher Hjort's "Strange Brew" book helps clear up the picture. He notes that John McVie formally quit the Bluesbreakers on 3 September, and that this was noted in Mayall's diary. McVie's departure and Paul William's joining the band was also noted in Mayall's September fan club newsletter. Hjort also notes that McVie had informed Mayall of his intention to quit earlier, so that Paul Williams actually had his debut with the Bluesbreakers on 4 September.

Hjort also notes Fleetwood Mac playing the Ram Jam club on 9 September and he says that could have been McVie's first gig with Fleetwood Mac (though Brunning may have played that gig). Hjort notes an advertisement for a gig in Nottingham on 24 September, which mentions Fleetwood Mac featured "Peter Green and John McVeigh - John Mayall's ex-guitarists".....well, they almost got that right Interestingly, the support band for the following night's gig was Boilerhouse - looks like that may have been the first time those two bands played on the same bill.

[wetcamelfood]

Further to what Chris said, the liner notes for the SB "Getting To The Point" CD which has "Taste & Try Before You Buy" and "Someday people" (the SB single Bruns played on as a member of SB & on that CD reissue as bonus tracks) John Tracy of Decca says in the liner notes that though he couldn't locate the recording date(s) for the session(s) that produced these 2 tracks he said the line up with Bruns had "rehearsed and toured togeher for 3 or 4 weeks prior to the release of the single which was released on Nov 24 of '67 so even if we only go back 3 weeks that takes us to Nov 3 he was definietly in SB and I highly doubt he got the SB job on Nov 2 and they raced in to record these tracks in between the rehearsal & tour dates they had been doing. Tracy also says in the liner notes for Crusade that McVie had left Mayall around the UK release date of the Bluesbreakers "Crusade" album which was McVie's last for Mayall as a member and he says that was Sep 1st. So again, even if we say "around" means after that date (and we'll stretch it and say he left Mayll Sep 30th) it couldn't have been much longer I mean if the rest of FM were so eager to get him in there, why would they then tell him to sit around for a few months doing nothing while we do these gigs with Bruns?

Again, not trying to cause disention in the ranks juist trying to chime in some historical dates we can work with in trying to figure this thing out is all.

John

[wetcamelfood]

Originally Posted by sharksfan2000

I think your edit info makes matters more than clear. As wetcamelfood notes, Mick Fleetwood's book has numerous errors and can't really be relied upon for things like how long Brunning was in the band. And Brunning has had a long history of puffing up his brief membership in Fleetwood Mac into something more significant than it was (it wasn't enough just being an original member?).

More detail from Christopher Hjort's "Strange Brew" book helps clear up the picture. He notes that John McVie formally quit the Bluesbreakers on 3 September, and that this was noted in Mayall's diary. McVie's departure and Paul William's joining the band was also noted in Mayall's September fan club newsletter. Hjort also notes that McVie had informed Mayall of his intention to quit earlier, so that Paul Williams actually had his debut with the Bluesbreakers on 4 September.

Hjort also notes Fleetwood Mac playing the Ram Jam club on 9 September and he says that could have been McVie's first gig with Fleetwood Mac (though Brunning may have played that gig). Hjort notes an advertisement for a gig in Nottingham on 24 September, which mentions Fleetwood Mac featured "Peter Green and John McVeigh - John Mayall's ex-guitarists".....well, they almost got that right Interestingly, the support band for the following night's gig was Boilerhouse - looks like that may have been the first time those two bands played on the same bill.

Great stuff sharksfan, meant to check Hjort's book, you beat me to it again!

John

[chriskisn]

I was trying to find a copy of Melody Maker from Sept 9 1967, but at the moment there are only copies from Sept 2 and 23rd available on Ebay...

It is a pity that Brunning's email no longer works or we could ask him (although John (wetcamelfood not McVie) might have some comment on that - )

[wetcamelfood]

Originally Posted by chriskisn

I was trying to find a copy of Melody Maker from Sept 9 1967, but at the moment there are only copies from Sept 2 and 23rd available on Ebay...

It is a pity that Brunning's email no longer works or we could ask him (although John (wetcamelfood not McVie) might have some comment on that - )

Yup, e mailing him doesn't work (in more ways than one) unfortunately.

John

[Author]

The question is: Would Peter G name his new band Fleetwood Brunning? Hardly. Green had his sights firmly set on his favorite rhythm section, Messrs. Mick F and John M when he quit John Mayall in the early summer of 1967. When McVie got (temporarily) cold feet and remained with Mayall, Green simply wanted someone who could deputize. Brunning joined in mid-July 67 at the the earliest and he was out six-to-eight weeks later in September 67. I guess Green chose an unknown player (instead of, say, Dave Ambrose or Ric Grech who both tried out) to underline the fact that this was a temporary situation. Hence there was no hurtful Pete-Best-sacking when Brunning graciously bowed out. I'd even argue and say McVie was a founding member given the fact that he, Green, and Fleetwood recording the first acknowledged F Mac tracks in late spring 67. As for the dates in the gig sheet reproduced in Brunning's "Blues: The British Connection" (p 116) these were all Savoy Brown gigs (oops, not C Shack as I hurriedly wrote above), whatever his claim to the contrary.