So… what are your TOP 6 favorite songs so far from 24 Karat Gold...

[PoetofRhiannon]

Originally Posted by michelej1

But I think not only does she not have a chorus, she doesn't have any verses either.

Michele

I guess I like that.

[tabruns]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Twisted
Starshine (could do without the last "starshine" that closes the song though)
The Dealer
All The Beautiful Worlds
24 Karat Gold
Blue Water

I don't like Mabel Normand and was kind of shocked at how it sounds given all the praise it's been getting here. I was like, "What? That still isn't a song. She's just having a rambling conversation and there's music under her words." You guys made me think the demo had been transformed into something magical.

If You Were My Love was my other least favorite song, but I didn't have hope that that would be any better than past versions anyway.

Michele

Of course its a song. Songs don't always have to be verse/chorus/verse.

[KarmaContestant]

Originally Posted by michelej1

But I think not only does she not have a chorus, she doesn't have any verses either.

Originally Posted by PoetofRhiannon

I guess I like that.

I like it, too. I'm thrilled to hear Stevie hurl herself out of that box of lyric conformity, and I hope she does it again. it reminds me very much of Neko Case's style of writing (Fever or Fox Confessor are great examples). The verse-chorus-bridge-chorus formula is so overdone in modern music. That formula is made for pop radio, and Mabel Normand is not for pop radio. It doesn't need to have a formula - it just needs to tell a story, which it does very well.

Human beings have been making music since before we were able to write it down. The pop radio formula of verse/chorus is not even a hundred years old.

Mabel Normand is primal.

[joe68]

24 Karat Gold
Belle Fluer
Hard Advice
The Dealer
Lady
If You Were My Love

[BlueLight]

Originally Posted by KarmaContestant

I like it, too. I'm thrilled to hear Stevie hurl herself out of that box of lyric conformity, and I hope she does it again. it reminds me very much of Neko Case's style of writing (Fever or Fox Confessor are great examples). The verse-chorus-bridge-chorus formula is so overdone in modern music. That formula is made for pop radio, and Mabel Normand is not for pop radio. It doesn't need to have a formula - it just needs to tell a story, which it does very well.

Human beings have been making music since before we were able to write it down. The pop radio formula of verse/chorus is not even a hundred years old.

Mabel Normand is primal.

Yes! Love your comparison to Neko Case. In fact, I've wondered what a Nicks/Case collaboration would sound like. I've always found some similarities in their styles, and I bet their harmonies would be stellar.

[SpyNote]

It's hard to rank them right now when there are so many good songs, but here's my Top 10, which is certain to change.

1. Starshine - stage ready, let's go!
2. 24 Karat Gold - moody, dark, exiting!
3. All the Beautiful Worlds - amazing vocals!
4. Watch Chain - love the bass!
5. Belle Fleur - awesome new intro!
6. She Loves Him Still - the one vocal that's actually better than the one on the original demo
7. The Dealer - a classic
8. Blue Water - love Lady Antebellum on this
9. Lady - 1 minute shorter and it would have been perfect
10. Hard Advice - surprisingly good and should have been used instead of TMMS on TISL.

I put 24 Karat Gold #3 behind Bella Donna and The Wild Heart. I hope she tours behind this record. What an amazing show this would be!

[KarmaContestant]

Originally Posted by BlueLight

Yes! Love your comparison to Neko Case. In fact, I've wondered what a Nicks/Case collaboration would sound like. I've always found some similarities in their styles, and I bet their harmonies would be stellar.

Yes, right?! Stevie likes to name drop and I would love for once to hear Stevie talking about an artist Neko Case and her song Man instead of blathering about Katy Perry's vacuous E.T.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by tabruns

Of course its a song. Songs don't always have to be verse/chorus/verse.

Yes, a song like Thoughts on a Grey Day. It's not a song. It's largely not even sung. It has music, but the words aren't set to that music and the words and are largely independent of the instrumentation. The words? They're not really in a full-fledged conversation. It's just rambling.

Of course, I've already noted that most people here do like it. That's what made is so surprising to me when I finally heard it, because the descriptions of it and it's transformation from the demo set me up to expect something completely different.

Michele

[goldenground]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Yes, a song like Thoughts on a Grey Day. It's not a song. It's largely not even sung. It has music, but the words aren't set to that music and the words and are largely independent of the instrumentation. The words? They're not really in a full-fledged conversation. It's just rambling.

Of course, I've already noted that most people here do like it. That's what made is so surprising to me when I finally heard it, because the descriptions of it and it's transformation from the demo set me up to expect something completely different.

Michele

You wouldn't say that to Bob Dylan Sorry, I know it's corny but I had to. Yes, this is not a song in the sense that there's no chorus, or even coherent versus. But it is a song. Just not the norm of what most people classify as a song. It has music, and Stevie is singing. It's called free verse. And her urgent vocal delivery keeps the song moving. I guess it's just a hit or miss for people.

[KarmaContestant]

Originally Posted by goldenground

And her urgent vocal delivery keeps the song moving.

Yes, exactly!! The vocal is the way Mabel Normand (and Stevie) lived at the time. Just on and on and never ending, chugging relentlessly along to the music. The song is perfectly made for what it's about.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by goldenground

You wouldn't say that to Bob Dylan Sorry, I know it's corny but I had to. Yes, this is not a song in the sense that there's no chorus, or even coherent versus. But it is a song.

I think it's not a song. Free verse is something quite different. Free verse can be put to music, but it stands alone as poetry. For instance, Enya has free verse songs that I appreciate. Mabel Normand does not stand alone as a poem, of any structure. For me, These Strange Times is a poem. Mabel Normand is not, so I wouldn't classify it as free verse. As for being a song, I think a song takes more than a pairing of words and unrelated music.

The change sides gets to be more song-like than the rest of the rambling though.

But I realize most people here do like Mabel Normand. I was expressing my impression, not seeking accord. It's just that I'd been reading everyone else's takes and I just listened to the record on Friday, so I have a late reaction to what everyone has been saying for a few weeks. Until Friday, all I had was the Mabel Normand demo.

Michele

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by KarmaContestant

Yes, exactly!! The vocal is the way Mabel Normand (and Stevie) lived at the time.

Yes, the vocal could be that, in the same sense that the vocal on RTTG is ceaseless and exhaustively expresses exactly how many flowers there are to cut down. You can't see (or hear) an end in sight, it goes on and on. So, I get your point.

Originally Posted by KarmaContestant

Just on and on and never ending, chugging relentlessly along to the music.

That's where I disagree, because I don't think the vocal is done TO the music. The music does not match. It is unrelated. It does not enhance meaning or message to me and seems to have a different vibe than the words or the phrasing. There's a conflict to my ears.

I think for me, even if words have no meter or structure or syllable count, they still have to have a rhythm. That rhythm is what makes the sadness or the death or the pathos. Lindsey once said about Stevie that it's where she stops that counts. Pausing creates a rhythm as does inflection, making your voice high or low, to mimic or suggest the emotion.

I think Starshine does that very nicely. She stops and doesn't say "wrong." She gets us to say "wrong" in our head several times, before she actually says it on the record.

The way you say things, fast or slow or in sudden stops makes a beat that is a type of music in and of itself. That's why I mentioned These Strange Times, because it really does have a beat, in Mick's voice alone. I guess, for me, Mabel Normand just lacks that beat in the vocal and doesn't marry the music that's been attached to it.

Michele

[goldenground]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Yes, the vocal could be that, in the same sense that the vocal on RTTG is ceaseless and exhaustively expresses exactly how many flowers there are to cut down. You can't see (or hear) an end in sight, it goes on and on. So, I get your point.



That's where I disagree, because I don't think the vocal is done TO the music. The music does not match. It is unrelated. It does not enhance meaning or message to me and seems to have a different vibe than the words or the phrasing. There's a conflict to my ears.

I think for me, even if words have no meter or structure or syllable count, they still have to have a rhythm. That rhythm is what makes the sadness or the death or the pathos. Lindsey once said about Stevie that it's where she stops that counts. Pausing creates a rhythm as does inflection, making your voice high or low, to mimic or suggest the emotion.

I think Starshine does that very nicely. She stops and doesn't say "wrong." She gets us to say "wrong" in our head several times, before she actually says it on the record.

The way you say things, fast or slow or in sudden stops makes a beat that is a type of music in and of itself. That's why I mentioned These Strange Times, because it really does have a beat, in Mick's voice alone. I guess, for me, Mabel Normand just lacks that beat in the vocal and doesn't marry the music that's been attached to it.

Michele

I'd have to strongly disagree here. I think the music flows completely with the vocal. The inflection is most definitely there, and it moves with the music. I like the fact that there's no official chorus, it gives that verse "You change sides" a much bigger impact and then lets the stream of consciousness carry you once more. She pulled it off brilliantly in my honest opinion.

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by michelej1

I think it's not a song. Free verse is something quite different. Free verse can be put to music, but it stands alone as poetry. For instance, Enya has free verse songs that I appreciate. Mabel Normand does not stand alone as a poem, of any structure. For me, These Strange Times is a poem. Mabel Normand is not, so I wouldn't classify it as free verse. As for being a song, I think a song takes more than a pairing of words and unrelated music.

The change sides gets to be more song-like than the rest of the rambling though.

But I realize most people here do like Mabel Normand. I was expressing my impression, not seeking accord. It's just that I'd been reading everyone else's takes and I just listened to the record on Friday, so I have a late reaction to what everyone has been saying for a few weeks. Until Friday, all I had was the Mabel Normand demo.

Michele

I don't think it's a song either but I love the music. It's just a stream of thought rambling like she is thinking out loud. I pick out little truths here and there in the song because basically that what she wants. She doesn't want people to sing along with it.

[tabruns]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Yes, a song like Thoughts on a Grey Day. It's not a song. It's largely not even sung. It has music, but the words aren't set to that music and the words and are largely independent of the instrumentation. The words? They're not really in a full-fledged conversation. It's just rambling.

Of course, I've already noted that most people here do like it. That's what made is so surprising to me when I finally heard it, because the descriptions of it and it's transformation from the demo set me up to expect something completely different.

Michele

Maybe it's because I never heard the demo, I'm not sure, but I don't find "Mabel Normand" to be as meandering as some Nicks songs are. She's telling a definite story here, whereas some of her lyrics are so obtuse that they can seem like non-sequiturs. Musically it seems to fit the lyrical tale quite well, and I think that's what makes this whole song work....at least many people seem to have gravitated towards and like it.