Take down the CSA flags?

[becca]

I remember at least 25 years ago it came up about the Confederate rebel flag being flown at some southern govt. buildings. In a letter in a magazine (published in Kentucky) I wrote that I couldn't understand putting any symbol or piece of cloth ahead of actual human beings being upset. Now with the ugly Charleston business in the news lately it seems there's still one of these in front of a government building! I think it should not even have to be asked for that to be gone after the recent horror... what is wrong with these South Carolinians? What possible defense can there be for officially displaying a flag of the side that lost the civil war which ended slavery?

Also some politician mentioned the 21 year old shooter as 'kid' multiple times in an interview. I remember all the hoohah of people carrying on when Trayvon Martin who was 18 (and 'armed' with a sidewalk according to the court if you can imagine that) was ever called a child or earlier photos of him were shown. What hypocrites now. You'd think even dumb politicians would want to appeal to as many voters as possible and black people do vote (in spite of redistricting and f-ing around with poll locations and false phone calls of location changes etc.). That is not kid under anybody's dictionary. That this is the U.S.A. in 2015 is just sad. I'm tired of being told I have no right to comment because I'm Canadian... I consider the U.S. a close friend, have relatives and loved ones there, and love the music of blacks and whites from the southern states. If your friends can't tell you who will? I'm not the only one who would love to see some kind of progress in my lifetime on these things. It's been great to see gay marriage become accepted mainstream, but the very words liberal and progress are still sneered out like swear words by some haters. I always vote against hate. If a negative ad tries to insinuate, scare and smear another that is who I vote for... if more people did that we might have positive change.

[iamnotafraid]

Originally Posted by becca

(1.) What possible defense can there be for officially displaying a flag of the side that lost the civil war which ended slavery?

(2.) Also some politician mentioned the 21 year old shooter as 'kid' multiple times in an interview. I remember all the hoohah of people carrying on when Trayvon Martin who was 18 (and 'armed' with a sidewalk according to the court if you can imagine that) was ever called a child or earlier photos of him were shown...

1. Do you think that war was only fought to end slavery?

2. Most of the photos I saw of Trayvon Martin were of him as an innocent child.

That flag had nothing to do with that nut that killed those people. Just watching
the news from Baltimore and other cities that are dealing with racial problems is
enough to send some of the crazies over the edge of the cliff.

Taking down flags and taking away guns isn't the answer. Locking up criminals
and institutionalizing the insane is a good place to start.

[Macfan4life]

So much is not understood while discussing the confederate flag. The Confederacy changed their flag many times during its existence. At one time the flag had a white middle so that the flag looked pure white when the wind was not blowing and it hung from the flag pole. This was to support white supremacy.
The "common" confederate flag was not the main flag of the confederacy. Robert E Lee used it as a battle flag in Virginia. This is why its also called the "rebel flag."

But here is the part which is not known that much and how the flag stands for racism. Southern States like Georgia and South Carolina never had the "rebel flag" as their state flag. In the late 50's the state of Georgia put the rebel flag as part of their state flag in retaliation of school integration. In 1962 the governor of South Carolina made the "rebel flag" the state flag of South Carolina in the peak of the civil rights movement. Georgia removed its rebel flag from its state flag years ago.

So this has nothing to do with history. If South Carolina always had the rebel flag as their official state flag then it would be about history. These rebel flags only showed up on state flags 100 years after the civil war and in response to African Americans getting equal access to schools, restaurants, and water fountains.
That is why these flags are used in racist ways. They were put there for a reason and that reason is not tradition or history.

[welcomechris]

[QUOTE=iamnotafraid;1168608]1. Do you think that war was only fought to end slavery?

2. Most of the photos I saw of Trayvon Martin were of him as an innocent child.

That flag had nothing to do with that nut that killed those people. Just watching
the news from Baltimore and other cities that are dealing with racial problems is
enough to send some of the crazies over the edge of the cliff.

Taking down flags and taking away guns isn't the answer. Locking up criminals
and institutionalizing the insane is a good place to start.[/QUOTE]


I couldn't agree with you more.

The american flag has been up for 239 years and 89 of those years slavery was around. Should we take that down now? No.

[KarmaContestant]

My take on it, simple though it may be: The Confederate flag is the flag of traitors. It is the flag of Americans who were willing to break our nation in order to continue keeping other human beings as slave labor. Nothing more, nothing less than a gross, vile symbol of racism, human trafficking and subjugation, and treason. Not unlike the white KKK garb.

From CNN a couple years ago:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/25/opinio...federate-flag/

"For those still on the fence, these words from the vice president of the Confederacy, Alexander Stephens, explaining the genesis of the Confederacy should end any doubts...

In 1861, Stephens explained to a cheering audience that the Confederacy was founded to expressly reject the proposition that men of all races were equal. Instead, Stephens stated, "The foundations of our new government are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition."

Honoring the Confederate flag makes a huge statement. But...it's not the statement that so many claim it to be. I've lived in Texas. I've lived in Louisiana. I've spent time in the South. I have family in the South to this day and I understand many Southerners don't see the Confederate flag that way. They will swear to the grave that it's about state sovereignty, northern aggression and southern pride. Pride in what exactly?

That said, the flag itself has little to do with the killings in Charleston, but the flag has *everything* to do with the ideology behind those killings. As long as the Confederate flag is honored, hoisted in the air, and flown over public lands or government buildings, it makes a statement in support of Alexander Stephens' words from 1861.

[FuzzyPlum]

Originally Posted by welcomechris

I couldn't agree with you more.

The american flag has been up for 239 years and 89 of those years slavery was around. Should we take that down now? No.

As a non-American, overseas observer I feel this is the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard on the matter

[becca]

If I boil it down, as I did decades ago when I first heard about these flags being used by state governments, it comes out as a lot of people upset vs. a piece of cloth. No contest, the people before the symbol.

I have a lot of respect for the people of whatever parties who have risked speaking against a dubious at best symbol being flown by modern day governments in the U.S.A. They are to be admired. It will be nice to finally see this bit of progress by my neighbor, friend and close business associate in my lifetime as it has been to see same-sex marriages called what they are and recognized. Variety is a great strength and that which you tend to see most threatened under fascist and communist dictatorships. In fact the heaviest defenders and users of state symbols fall in that same camp. We don't fly nazi flags anyplace officially, this confederate flag is equally and needlessly offensive, even fear provoking, to others.

The U.S. civil war was a huge amount about slavery. Learn about John Brown, his death, and abolitionists and the fight over newly created states allowing human beings to legally be property. Would there have been succession from the union but for the issue? No. Union soldiers not being individually motivated to fight for an end to slavery does not take away that this is actually what set the stage for the conflict.

[Jondalar]

Should we ban The Dukes of Hazard and Lynard Skynard too?

[FuzzyPlum]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

Should we ban The Dukes of Hazard and Lynard Skynard too?

That's a really good idea. It would help to give a clear message regarding racial equality and build some bridges. Very forward thinking.

[becca]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

Should we ban The Dukes of Hazard and Lynard Skynard too?

No, I know... let's trivialize the real concerns and not baseless fears of a large number of people instead. But banning Dukes of Hazard would be like banning Hogan's Heroes. Nobody anywhere is saying either. If a current rock group wants to display something that's different from a capitol building or courthouse supposed to be for all the citizenry, or government issued license plate or ID, and they can alienate who they want to and the cost that would be to them.

I just don't think in a free society people should be expected to live with the intimidation of nazi swastikas, burning crosses or confederate symbology within the union. Just to have fostered a resentment of a cause lost well over one hundred and forty years ago is the height of unreasonableness. Many more forward thinking southerners however have joined the modern world and made many contributions to our world. As I wrote, it should not have had to be asked for that these last vestiges haunting a nation be taken down finally. Oh, sorry, maybe all these black people have been lying about the intimidation and fear and actual harassment all this time? We all know what 'those' people are like... right? I mean it was in the book The Klansman and the classic Birth Of A Nation movie both also a hundred years old or more (like defending inanimate pieces of fabric).