I guess Lindsey did have a job at one time...

[Gazza]

Originally Posted by dissention

What a fabulous excuse for sheer laziness.

Laziness? Dedicating yourself to getting good at something you love isn't lazy. He learnt his craft and in doing so contributed hugely to taking a forgotten about band to a new level of success.

Like Stevie says "You're not like other people, you do what you want to"

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Les

Well, yes, I think they can. One was made when he was trying to convince a bandmate who is overly fixated on the money to look at something else. The other was made after several band fights and after looking at the possibilities of shouldering all financial losses on his own

But, it was all centered around money in that essentially the whole DR doc (which I suggest was only a snippet of what went on in toto - so we are speculating based on that small vision ) was about LB portraying himself as artist with integrity against the corp. machine and the bandmates who wanted to sell a record, which ostensibly why LB was there as well. Thus, it is related to me, though it occurred at different times. I think LB has a hard time being in an band and having people tell him no. I mean none of us like it when we are told no and none of us have that I know of the artistic brilliance and vision of LB and have other cooks in the kitchen with similar artistic brilliance and vision but no inherent means of executing it to its fuition.

[Les]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

But, it was all centered around money in that essentially the whole DR doc (which I suggest was only a snippet of what went on in toto - so we are speculating based on that small vision ) was about LB portraying himself as artist with integrity against the corp. machine and the bandmates who wanted to sell a record, which ostensibly why LB was there as well. Thus, it is related to me, though it occurred at different times. I think LB has a hard time being in an band and having people tell him no. I mean none of us like it when we are told no and none of us have that I know of the artistic brilliance and vision of LB and have other cooks in the kitchen with similar artistic brilliance and vision but no inherent means of executing it to its fuition.

Well, therein lies a fundamental difference in how you and I view Lindsey. I don't think the doc was about Lindsey "portraying himself" as anything other than what Lindsey is. He's the guy in the band who often pushes for something a little different than what the others are comfortable with. From your extensive posts on the subject at various times, you seem to repeatedly take this stance that Stevie and Mick were simply being themselves and trying to talk common sense into this Lindsey character who was "portraying" himself as representing something he doesn't genuinely strive for. I think the conflicts evident in that documentary are essentially the same conflicts this band has been struggling with for 25 years and that nobody was "portraying" anything about themselves and their ideologies that isn't true to what they want for themselves and the band.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Les

Well, therein lies a fundamental difference in how you and I view Lindsey. I don't think the doc was about Lindsey "portraying himself" as anything other than what Lindsey is. He's the guy in the band who often pushes for something a little different than what the others are comfortable with. From your extensive posts on the subject at various times, you seem to repeatedly take this stance that Stevie and Mick were simply being themselves and trying to talk common sense into this Lindsey character who was "portraying" himself as representing something he doesn't genuinely strive for. I think the conflicts evident in that documentary are essentially the same conflicts this band has been struggling with for 25 years and that nobody was "portraying" anything about themselves and their ideologies that isn't true to what they want for themselves and the band.

I did not mean to imply that the portrayal was not the way he is and I did not mean it in a perjorative way, which I think you took it as. I was using it as a manner of speaking andn not to imply that LB created this false persona. Sorry for the confusion.

I agree and think LB likes pushing the envelope and I like it when he does. But, my point was and is I do think LB is not the maverick he perhaps would like to be or like for us to think he is because although he bemoans the industry and its control of him as he did in DR - he simultaneously seeemingly loves it and works pretty well in it - I mean he keeps running back to it Maybe he is running back for Stevie - who knows - be he runs back to it nonetheless. Thus, he is a mini-maverick (levity)

[Les]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I did not mean to imply that the portrayal was not the way he is and I did not mean it in a perjorative way, which I think you took it as. I was using it as a manner of speaking andn not to imply that LB created this false persona. Sorry for the confusion.

I agree and think LB likes pushing the envelope and I like it when he does. But, my point was and is I do think LB is not the maverick he perhaps would like to be or like for us to think he is because although he bemoans the industry and its control of him as he did in DR - he simultaneously seeemingly loves it and works pretty well in it - I mean he keeps running back to it Maybe he is running back for Stevie - who knows - be he runs back to it nonetheless. Thus, he is a mini-maverick (levity)

I don't actually think Lindsey thinks he is some sort of profound maverick, but what he is used to is being the only in the band on one side of a debate, while everyone else is on the other side or just not getting involved. He jokes he's "the troublemaker" because of that pattern. Within Fleetwood Mac, that pattern has to make him feel like he's out of the mainstream fairly regularly or the debate teams wouldn't so often end up that way.

I don't think one has to love an industry and never complain about it and some of the its more rigid "rules" in order to work in it. I've been grateful for my paychecks, but that doesn't mean I never complain about my employer or don't long for priorities to be different. It seems to me that Lindsey, who grew up with the industry, so to speak, and remembers how different it used to be, is not precluded from being nervous and uncertain about leaving behind the label he knows and all of the people he's familiar with.

As you alluded to earlier, black and white is rarely reality. Shades of gray is where most of life takes place. Lindsey said something about how how he doesn't always accomplish his ultimate goal, but his intention is pure. That's pretty much how I think he, as well as the rest in the band, and most of us, get through life. You have a set of priorities that you strive toward. You don't always have things turn out exactly as you thought they might, but you don't stop aspiring to those ideals in some fashion, and making concessions to realities and insecurities, each time out of the gate.

[AliP]

Wow, I post this late at night and wake up this morning and the post is in a frenzy! Seriously, I didn't post this for any other reason other than because I thought the quote was funny. Anyhoo.

Originally Posted by Les

Are you sure Stevie wasn't describing one or two incidents over and over and over because she enjoys how it makes her look and how it makes Lindsey look?

Actually, I don't believe Stevie was describing one or two incidents. Lindsey was a pot-head, plain and simple. He still is a pot-head. Just watch the Destiny Rules doc where you can see him smoking his pipe during the mixing

Now, whether that made him lazy is another question. I don't think it did.

[amber]

Originally Posted by Lux

No he prefers to torture me with Silver Girl.

I'm late, but i just have to say...
YAAAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO FORTHELOVEOFALLTHATISGOODANDHOLY NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONOTSILVERGIRLPLEASEGOD!!!!!!
However, I will gladly participate in the "whasamattababy" scenario. But only if I get to add extra whasamattababys"
Amber "card carying member of Stevie brigade, and yes, the sex is fabulous" G

[dissention]

Originally Posted by amber

However, I will gladly participate in the "whasamattababy" scenario. But only if I get to add extra whasamattababys"

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!

Castrate me if you must, but please, not that!!!!!!!!

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Les

I don't actually think Lindsey thinks he is some sort of profound maverick, but what he is used to is being the only in the band on one side of a debate, while everyone else is on the other side or just not getting involved. He jokes he's "the troublemaker" because of that pattern. Within Fleetwood Mac, that pattern has to make him feel like he's out of the mainstream fairly regularly or the debate teams wouldn't so often end up that way.

I don't think one has to love an industry and never complain about it and some of the its more rigid "rules" in order to work in it. I've been grateful for my paychecks, but that doesn't mean I never complain about my employer or don't long for priorities to be different. It seems to me that Lindsey, who grew up with the industry, so to speak, and remembers how different it used to be, is not precluded from being nervous and uncertain about leaving behind the label he knows and all of the people he's familiar with.

As you alluded to earlier, black and white is rarely reality. Shades of gray is where most of life takes place. Lindsey said something about how how he doesn't always accomplish his ultimate goal, but his intention is pure. That's pretty much how I think he, as well as the rest in the band, and most of us, get through life. You have a set of priorities that you strive toward. You don't always have things turn out exactly as you thought they might, but you don't stop aspiring to those ideals in some fashion, and making concessions to realities and insecurities, each time out of the gate.

and I totally agree with that. I just think like the SN people, the LB people think that when someone says LB is a bit of a hypocrite because although he openly eschews convention, he keeps running back to it then complaining about it to no end - that is the same as saying LB is a no good blah blah blah who is impossible to work with and who in secret cannot stand by his principles which he tauts in a consciously fake manner. I think that is not what I said

Note: I speak in general only and not about anyone in particular

[amber]

Originally Posted by dissention

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!

Castrate me if you must, but please, not that!!!!!!!!

THis is funny - we could alternately torture each other while not being repulsed by the song we're using for torture. Awesome.

[Les]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

and I totally agree with that. I just think like the SN people, the LB people think that when someone says LB is a bit of a hypocrite because although he openly eschews convention, he keeps running back to it then complaining about it to no end - that is the same as saying LB is a no good blah blah blah who is impossible to work with and who in secret cannot stand by his principles which he tauts in a consciously fake manner. I think that is not what I said

To be honest, I'm having a little difficulty following that second sentence and who the "SN people" are and what they're supposed to have said and who the "LB people" are, etc.

[David]

Originally Posted by dissention

I don't judge him, I just think that all the facts we know about point to him being lazy.

There's a kid I know, the drummer in a group I'm in. He's fecked up. He's about 26 years old, didn't attend college. He thinks he's an artist. Know the type? They're rampant among weekend warrior musician types. Anyway, this kid just will not work a job; he says he just isn't "cut out for it." I always smile sort of bemusedly. It's like my grandfather who won't attend funerals after deaths in the family because he "doesn't like them." The rest of us do, granddad?!

That's what I tell Jason: "Working for a living is what they mean by being a responsible adult, Jay." He doesn't get it. He tried working last year at (of all places) Guitar Center. Now, if there's anywhere I would think a musician would want to work if he had to, it would be Guitar Center. Jay lasted about a month there. I had a great laugh when he told me he had quit.

I doubt anyone in Fleetwood Mac did -- or would have wanted to do -- much in the way of full-time workplace employment, particularly in their 20s. So many musicians, especially those who have tasted even a little bit of the Big Time, just won't force themselves to trudge off to work every morning & keep it going for years -- like the rest of us. Maybe Lindsey was just like all these guys like Jason in their 20s. They must have been as numerous then as they are now.

As for Stevie, even if she worked full-time (40 hours a week) at some point, it wouldn't have been longer than about 12 or 13 months, would it? She wouldn't have worked before "Buckingham Nicks" stiffed; it would have been after, when they had been dropped by Polydor. That was in early '74 or so (the album was released in late '73). And LB & SN were put on Fleetwood Mac salary starting in early '75, right? Look out! I mean, people make it sound as if it was really something out of the ordinary . . . "Oh my god, Stevie Nicks held a . . . a . . . JOB!!"

There must have been a recession at the time, because otherwise how could two healthy kids not have been able to support themselves in the Los Angeles area without starving?

[dissention]

Originally Posted by David

There's a kid I know, the drummer in a group I'm in. He's fecked up. He's about 26 years old, didn't attend college. He thinks he's an artist. Know the type? They're rampant among weekend warrior musician types. Anyway, this kid just will not work a job; he says he just isn't "cut out for it." I always smile sort of bemusedly. It's like my grandfather who won't attend funerals after deaths in the family because he "doesn't like them." The rest of us do, granddad?!

That's what I tell Jason: "Working for a living is what they mean by being a responsible adult, Jay." He doesn't get it. He tried working last year at (of all places) Guitar Center. Now, if there's anywhere I would think a musician would want to work if he had to, it would be Guitar Center. Jay lasted about a month there. I had a great laugh when he told me he had quit.

Would he rather have a job at Guitar Center or McDonald's? Sounds like one lazy bum. Who supports him? Mommy and daddy?

I had a friend in college who always bitched and moaned on the weekends that he couldn't go out anywhere or buy any food because he was broke. I had never met someone in college who wasn't borke, but he was a rarity. He had never held a job in his life, even while in college, and he had the gall to complain to others that he couldn't afford this or that. I told him once that maybe he should get a job not just because it would give him money, but because it might give him a little purpose instead of just lounging around doing nothing. He told me it was too much work and he didn't have the patience.

Originally Posted by David

I doubt anyone in Fleetwood Mac did -- or would have wanted to do -- much in the way of full-time workplace employment, particularly in their 20s. So many musicians, especially those who have tasted even a little bit of the Big Time, just won't force themselves to trudge off to work every morning & keep it going for years -- like the rest of us. Maybe Lindsey was just like all these guys like Jason in their 20s. They must have been as numerous then as they are now.

As for Stevie, even if she worked full-time (40 hours a week) at some point, it wouldn't have been longer than about 12 or 13 months, would it? She wouldn't have worked before "Buckingham Nicks" stiffed; it would have been after, when they had been dropped by Polydor. That was in early '74 or so (the album was released in late '73). And LB & SN were put on Fleetwood Mac salary starting in early '75, right? Look out! I mean, people make it sound as if it was really something out of the ordinary . . . "Oh my god, Stevie Nicks held a . . . a . . . JOB!!"

There must have been a recession at the time, because otherwise how could two healthy kids not have been able to support themselves in the Los Angeles area without starving?

Well, calling a spade a spade, they never really had to work very hard for the success that they achieved. Look at the artists who trudge along through life for years until they finally get a small break. Not those two. Everything fell into their lap pretty damn quickly and I can only imagine how it shaped their view of the world and how spoiled they became because of it. Makes me shudder. Even when Stevie goes on television with her big doe-eyes and tells of being poor and cleaning apartments, I just want to roll my eyes because her parents were always there to catch her, as were Lindsey's. They make themselves sound so impoverished when they probably have no clue as to what living in poverty really is.

[Les]

Originally Posted by dissention

They make themselves sound so impoverished when they probably have no clue as to what living in poverty really is.

There's also the possibility that they don't particularly intend for anyone to take their word choice quite as literally as you are. In the quote that Ali used when she started this thread, Lindsey is chuckling through it. I don't really come away with the feeling that he really means he was "traumatized" in the literal sense of that word. When Stevie talks about being poor and starving, she may dip into her tendency to dramatize, but it doesn't require a stretch to think she doesn't really intend to say that she was truly near death's door. She uses terms that a lot of people use to describe times in their lives when they aren't living well. The terms aren't used in their most literal sense or in their most extreme interpretation.

As for being spoiled, of course they are and I'd say that they know it too.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Les

There's also the possibility that they don't particularly intend for anyone to take their word choice quite as literally as you are. In the quote that Ali used when she started this thread, Lindsey is chuckling through it. I don't really come away with the feeling that he really means he was "traumatized" in the literal sense of that word. When Stevie talks about being poor and starving, she may dip into her tendency to dramatize, but it doesn't require a stretch to think she doesn't really intend to say that she was truly near death's door. She uses terms that a lot of people use to describe times in their lives when they aren't living well. The terms aren't used in their most literal sense or in their most extreme interpretation.

As for being spoiled, of course they are and I'd say that they know it too.

Sheesh. I'd be absolutely lost if I didn't have you to interpret their childish comments and explain exactly what they meant to say.