The doc!!! - Page 16

Livia · #**226** 03-17-2004, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Stevie is as much of a poet as Jewel is..... I like to think of her as a singer/songwriter (who said that earlier in the thread???).

Remember when Kurt Loder got all over her for using a word that's not really a word? You could tell she was peeved.

clooney · #**227** 03-17-2004, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Tower
I think Lindsey was an ass to ask Stevie to change her lyrics. She wrote it that way for her reasons- leave it at that.

I don't think it was bad of him to make suggestions to her. He made his suggestion, then when it wasn't going anywhere, he backed off. Maybe he was trying to make it a team effort like John Lennon and Paul McCartney. But when he was shot down, he didn't pressure.
He just wanted to be gramatically correct. No harm done.

Chris

CarneVaca · #**228** 03-17-2004, 04:30 PM

Songwriting is not poetry.

"Now you're going home" is not poetry.

Very few songwriters can put poetry to music. Leonard Cohen, for instance:

Dance me to your beauty with a burning violin
Dance me through the panic till I'm gathered safely in
Lift me like an olive branch and be my homeward dove
Dance me to the end of love
Dance me to the end of love

Or:

Now in Vienna there's ten pretty women
There's a shoulder where Death comes to cry
There's a lobby with nine hundred windows
There's a tree where the doves go to die
There's a piece that was torn from the morning
And it hangs in the Gallery of Frost

strandinthewind · #**229** 03-17-2004, 04:46 PM

Carne - I disagree (surprise

) Here is Merriam Webster's def. of "poetry"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-b...etry&x=21&y=10

Moreover, in that thesaurus, "song" is a synonym of "poetry."

http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-b...oetry&x=21&y=7

The term "verse" is used interchangeably in poem and song as is "lyric." See www.merriam-webster.com

Finally, that source defines song as a "poetical composition."

So, I think it is correct to say a song is a poem or poetry put to music.

Now - the quality of that poetry is a debate that will be had until the end of time

- but I'd put the bulk of LB and SN's work up against anyone. I'd also freely admit some songs are more poetic than others, but I'd say most of SN and LB's songs are poetry in that they are not dissertations, etc.,and they are beautiful - even "now you're goin' home"

dissention · #**230** 03-17-2004, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Gimme a break, my friend... you know as well as I do, from past threads here and on other boards, that she gets slammed for anything that can be perceived as vanity, and knocked if people don't think she's living up to the expectations they have for her physical appearance.

I was just commenting on that fact, not commenting on vanity... after all, combing our hair in the morning is an act of vanity, if you want to get technical.

And I simply said that no one was slamming her on this thread. I see no point in slamming her for having her shots smoothed out; it would be futile and a waste of time. Besides, as I said before, I'd do the same thing.

And I wouldn't knock her for looking tired, either. She is in her fifties and no one looks like an album cover 24 hours a day. Or for two hours a day, for that matter.

And, since you got technical, almost all of our behaviors are motivated out of vanity. Brushing our teeth, brushing our hair, smoothing out our wrinkled clothes, using breath mints; it's all vanity, my friend.

The Tower · #**231** 03-17-2004, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Songwriting is not poetry.

"Now you're going home" is not poetry.

Very few songwriters can put poetry to music. Leonard Cohen, for instance:

Dance me to your beauty with a burning violin
Dance me through the panic till I'm gathered safely in
Lift me like an olive branch and be my homeward dove
Dance me to the end of love
Dance me to the end of love

Or:

Now in Vienna there's ten pretty women
There's a shoulder where Death comes to cry
There's a lobby with nine hundred windows
There's a tree where the doves go to die
There's a piece that was torn from the morning
And it hangs in the Gallery of Frost

Songwriting absolutely can be poetry. Stevie has achieved what I would consider poetry on several of her songs. However, the overwhelming majority of her stuff just doesn't cut it, poetry-wise (look at some of her demos fer chrissakes...).

But a lot of Bob Dylan's stuff is crap, too- so I wouldn't consider him a "poet".

Leonard Cohen may be a poet, but he can't sing for crapola....

chiliD · #**232** 03-17-2004, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Tower
But a lot of Bob Dylan's stuff is crap, too- so I wouldn't consider him a "poet".

A lot you DON'T know about Dylan.

Johnny Stew · #**233** 03-17-2004, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dissention
And I simply said that no one was slamming her on this thread.

I know... I was just trying to head it off at the pass.

I'm glad it didn't ultimately go that direction.

Quote:

Originally posted by dissention
And, since you got technical, almost all of our behaviors are motivated out of vanity. Brushing our teeth, brushing our hair, smoothing out our wrinkled clothes, using breath mints; it's all vanity, my friend.

I whole-heartedly agree... that's why I mentioned it in the first place.

I think the billion-dollar skin & hair-care industry is proof enough that we're ALL vain to one degree or another.

Johnny Stew · #**234** 03-17-2004, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Tower
But a lot of Bob Dylan's stuff is crap, too- so I wouldn't consider him a "poet".

As with Stevie's stuff, I feel that even when Bob Dylan has written something that some people would consider to be "crap," as long as it reaches SOMEONE, then it has value.

I also don't think that writing the occasional clunker precludes someone from being considered a poet.

dissention · #**235** 03-17-2004, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I also don't think that writing the occasional clunker precludes someone from being considered a poet.

I agree. And I agree that Stevie is a poet. Take any of her songs and just read them. If you don't consider them poetry, you really don't know what poetry is.

The Tower · #**236** 03-17-2004, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chiliD
A lot you DON'T know about Dylan.

Ah, but I do! Dylan is a MASTER!! However, he has had more than his fair share of stinkeroos. Here's a lovely excerpt from "Saved":

"I've been saved
By the blood of the lamb,
Saved
By the blood of the lamb,
Saved,
Saved,
And I'm so glad.
Yes, I'm so glad,
I'm so glad,
So glad,
I want to thank You, Lord,
I just want to thank You, Lord,
Thank You, Lord."

Rock on, poet man!

dissention · #**237** 03-17-2004, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Tower
Ah, but I do! Dylan is a MASTER!! However, he has had more than his fair share of stinkeroos. Here's a lovely excerpt from "Saved":

"I've been saved
By the blood of the lamb,
Saved
By the blood of the lamb,
Saved,
Saved,
And I'm so glad.
Yes, I'm so glad,
I'm so glad,
So glad,
I want to thank You, Lord,
I just want to thank You, Lord,
Thank You, Lord."

Rock on, poet man!

Put that next to:

"When I see you again
Will it be the same
When I see you again
Will it be over
When I see you again
Will your great eyes still say

What's the matter baby
What's the matter baby
What's the matter baby, baby, baby
What's the matter baby
What's the matter baby
What's the matter baby, baby"

Pretty ****ty, but that doesn't make her less of a poet.

Name one poet who hasn't written at least one bad piece and I'll send you some blank checks.

Johnny Stew · #**238** 03-17-2004, 07:22 PM

Doggoneit, dissention, I just KNEW you were gonna quote "When I See You Again"!!!

To my dying day, I will argue that it's one of the most emotionally arresting songs she has ever recorded.

dissention · #**239** 03-17-2004, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Doggoneit, dissention, I just KNEW you were gonna quote "When I See You Again"!!!

To my dying day, I will argue that it's one of the most emotionally arresting songs she has ever recorded.

But don't you at least agree with my stance on the whole poet debate? I thought you'd be the first one to applaud me, doll.

As with Dylan, I can quote a few more bad Stevie ramblings other than WISYA. But that was just the obvious one.

The Tower · #**240** 03-17-2004, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dissention
But don't you at least agree with my stance on the whole poet debate? I thought you'd be the first one to applaud me, doll.

As with Dylan, I can quote a few more bad Stevie ramblings other than WISYA. But that was just the obvious one.

I was gonna quote "Ooh Ooh Baby" and "Night Gallery"

I really like "When I See You Again". But, again, it's a song- it's not a poem.

I guess I consider a poet to be one who's main work it just writing poetry- Poe, Walt Whitman, etc. And usually they have to rely solely on the power of the words to convey the entire meaning. With Stevie and Dylan, I consider them singer-songwriters. Their lyrics can be as profound as poetry, but the words are usually suited towards singing, which can sometimes produce distrastrous results...