peter green and michael bloomfield

[doodyhead]

This has not been aired yet
This spring gibson guitars is releasing a 59 Les Paul in honor of michael


Did he ever play with peter ?

both B B deciples

both crashed. both humble to a fault

who would you want backing you on a slow blues?

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by doodyhead

This has not been aired yet
This spring gibson guitars is releasing a 59 Les Paul in honor of michael


Did he ever play with peter ?

both B B deciples

both crashed. both humble to a fault

who would you want backing you on a slow blues?

I hope this isn't because I mentioned Bloomfield's name earlier. From the Christopher Hjort book, PG and MB did meet a couple times in the states. From that it's hard to tell if they ever played together. I own the first two Paul Butterfield Blues Band albums. Of course I think Peter Green is the better guitarist.
I just wanted an argument against those guitarists compared to cutting off your heart(Kirwan) or your brain/heart (Green).

[snoot]

Well I'll just say this. I don't think Mike Bloomfield should be mentioned in the same breath as Peter Green. Now I realize there are folks who think Bloomie was the next best thing to sliced bread, but he was basically a study in the under-realized as far as I'm concerned. Like Green, he allowed drugs to largely derail what talent he did possess, only in his case it was a largely marginal career that never really matched most of the hype (which can't be said for Green and his accomplishments). Even that famed "Super Session", at least as it was ultimately portrayed and sold, was largely a blown up scam - which even he knew.

I also can't agree with one thing you said Vinnie, that being both were humble to a fault. Pete certainly was, but Mike was often brash and over-opinionated, thinking he held the pulse of his fellow musicians and the music industry in his hands. Go back and read his interviews! Reality was, he dodged stepping up to the plate time and again, which makes TALK CHEAP. When he should have been hitting home runs, he was instead questioning the accomplishments of others around him - the trends and trailblazers of the time - and wasting precious time.

Just look at his track record with Electric Flag, which was one of rank imitation (a la Stax stylings) and failed expectations, and yet he could hardly see it himself, even as it was smacking him in the face. Some of those know-it-all critics back east were calling the Flag rock's first supergroup! Give me a break. While he pompously "puffulated" on his rock counterparts, they were all basically kicking his butt in both reach and deed. And if this wasn't bad enough, he ultimately blamed his lack of recognition on all the mixed up, culturally devoid goyim he was cursed to have to play to. I mean, for me that was the last straw back then. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you! [the same one that feeds most other blues artists to boot, and keeps the genre alive].

As soon as blues purists realize you don't have to live the blues to feel the blues, or in Mike's case, change your race to achieve a requisite level of "understanding," they'll be on their way to more productive things.

[greenmanastrat]

Agreed not worth mentioning in the same breathe, for me he´s like an alvin lee or something like that you know, has a battery of licks he fires off over changes not in Peters league.
Now clapton and peter now thats a debate, me personally couldnt live without either, both changed the world.

[doodyhead]

Originally Posted by slipkid

I hope this isn't because I mentioned Bloomfield's name earlier. From the Christopher Hjort book, PG and MB did meet a couple times in the states. From that it's hard to tell if they ever played together. I own the first two Paul Butterfield Blues Band albums. Of course I think Peter Green is the better guitarist.
I just wanted an argument against those guitarists compared to cutting off your heart(Kirwan) or your brain/heart (Green).

Sometimes during these discussions, people get carried away with the moment and forget that we are all here because there is a certain amount of fun between the opinionated people that we are. Poor Michael. He was gifted as well but his upbringing led him to his own self destruction, no matter what the potential.

I am personally a fan of Michael, who left just a cupfull of good stuff and so much unfilled expectations.

It is incredible the amount of output of superior music considering the circumstances

doodyhead

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by doodyhead

Sometimes during these discussions, people get carried away with the moment and forget that we are all here because there is a certain amount of fun between the opinionated people that we are. Poor Michael. He was gifted as well but his upbringing led him to his own self destruction, no matter what the potential.

I am personally a fan of Michael, who left just a cupfull of good stuff and so much unfilled expectations.

It is incredible the amount of output of superior music considering the circumstances

I'm not familiar with Bloomfield's upbringing except that he was Jewish like Peter. Since Michael was american, I can guess that his choice of career was frowned upon by his family. In Peter's case he came from blue collar roots, so a musician was only an upgrade in scale. If you believe Snoot's account it seems Bloomfield had a lot of self-loathing in him, another heroin tragedy.

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by greenmanastrat

Agreed not worth mentioning in the same breathe, for me he´s like an alvin lee or something like that you know, has a battery of licks he fires off over changes not in Peters league.
Now clapton and peter now thats a debate, me personally couldnt live without either, both changed the world.

Without Clapton, Peter Green doesn't take the same musical direction so Eric is essential in the chain. His Mayall album stands as his finest achievement, and his finest guitar tone. I used to like Cream very much, but nowI just don't see them the same way. After hearing Cream Live I and II, my opinion of Clapton really soured. That's just two hours of aimless noodling. It pales to the live side of Wheels of Fire, with the great Crossroads solo. Everyone knows the story afterwards with Faith, Derek, heroin, and that average solo career. However, the day Clapton plugged his Les Paul into a Marshall 50W combo amp, the music world changed.

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by snoot

As soon as blues purists realize you don't have to live the blues to feel the blues, or in Mike's case, change your race to achieve a requisite level of "understanding," they'll be on their way to more productive things.

Well Stevie Ray Vaughan did just that, in the nick of time. Then he's killed by something that was out of his hands. In recent years I've heard that Clapton gave up his seat on the helicopter for SRV, I have to think that's fabricated. That sounds too much like Waylon Jennings giving Buddy Holly his seat on the ill-fated plane in Iowa.

[doodyhead]

Originally Posted by doodyhead

I am personally a fan of Michael, who left just a cupfull of good stuff and so much unfilled expectations.

It is incredible the amount of output of superior music considering the circumstances

doodyhead

I was typing this on a sticky keyboard before leaving for work

The last sentence was in reference to Peter Green

Michael left a fraction of great stuff amidst less than worthyoutput.
Peter's output was substantial and prolific besdes being of superior quality

I do not think Peter ever played with Micael and my suposition was Michael was intimidated by Peters talent. This exhibited itself with Michaels encouner with a host of fine blues and rock players.

Oh Well

Clapton on the other hand (the slow one) also does not have the quality output that peter has despite the extensive catalog. I dare anyone to put a retrospective without resorting to his pop tunes. Once you leave the 60's he is overshadowed by so many others . I too feel that until he did his blues album after the death of his son he had a lot of unmemorable releases.


Yet he is recognizable and a part of the fabric of our listening. I am still influenced by him and would not have learned the pentatonic scale without his riffing sojourns in the Cream era.

I like him more now as an approachable person. Much better than the bitter arogant one. He really likes racing bicycles.

doodyhead

[snoot]

Say what you will about Clapton, but there is a reason just about every known axe out there puts him down as one of their inspirations. Was he the "greatest" in the modern era? Hell no. But if there was to be only one, as cited by both artists and the public at large (and when taking in one's entire body of work, plus the overall impact they had in their peak period), you would be hard pressed to come up with a name that would top his, Hendrix and others be damned. That's just the way it is.

It'd be like trying to take the title of King of Rock-n-Roll away from Elvis. See how far you get. Ha!

I definitely agree with you guys when assessing EC's extensive catalogue -- most of his latter day output was fairly inconsequential bordering on sappy and MOR, with a few hit and miss exceptions along the way. His early stuff, especially up to Derek & The Dominos, was fresh, and it definitely was turning heads (I'm tempted to including 461 Ocean Blvd, which wasn't bad as a comeback after his extended heroin setback, but it was also the harbinger of the increasingly "pop" and midland sound that would soon follow). Hendrix was also turning heads back during the psychedelic era. Problem with Jimi is he pulled daisies well before his time, so it's hard to assess where he may have gone, or where he rightfully stands.

Alvin Lee was an interesting package too. Fiery notes sprinkled all over the place, like graffiti in a tickertape parade. A little blues, boogie and rock n roll fused into a nice tight package. But like Mick Fleetwood once said, he basically riffed his way to fame, never having fully immersed himself in the blues genre like Peter tried to do. Add the good looks and fantastic stage presence - and man could Lee put on a show - and you can see why TYA rose above the crowd years ago. Revisit A Space In Time, Cricklewood Green, Live In Europe and In Flight - all done within a 3 or 4 year span - and tell me he never rose above second class material, or didn't pack an impressive range.

Slipkid:
Well Stevie Ray Vaughan did just that, in the nick of time. Then he's killed by something that was out of his hands.

Not sure about the Clapton bit either for the same reason you cite, but what a shame with SRV. And like you put it, right when he was finally getting his act together!

Doodyhead:
I am personally a fan of Michael, who left just a cupfull of good stuff and so much unfilled expectations.

That sums it up pretty nicely.

Doodyhead:
I like [Clapton] more now as an approachable person. Much better than the bitter arogant one.

Agreed. He cleaned himself up from the powder and booze, and now is making the most of his fabled status in reaching out to others - young and old hands alike. I'll give him chops there.

[greenmanastrat]

[QUOTE=snoot;793429]Say what you will about Clapton, but there is a reason just about every known axe out there puts him down as one of their inspirations. Was he the "greatest" in the modern era? Hell no. But if there was to be only one, as cited by both artists and the public at large (and when taking in one's entire body of work, plus the overall impact they had in their peak period), you would be hard pressed to come up with a name that would top his, Hendrix and others be damned. That's just the way it is.

Well put, Clappo deserves his dues...it´s not his fault he survived! Looks like he tried his best to kill himself so lets not kick him for that. He is an incredible player regardless of what limitations we think he has ie is propensity to use the minor pent. He got time baby in his pocket, maybe he don´t play your fancy exotic scales but as bluesers and rockers go he as you rightly put is up there.
Don´t get the Svr thing never been into him, to me just a flash jimi hendrix tribute...sorry thats what he´s famous for, he played like hendrix, with thick strings...hmmm not impressed. no offence to the dead like

[snoot]

Originally Posted by greenmanastrat

Well put, Clappo deserves his dues...it´s not his fault he survived! Looks like he tried his best to kill himself so lets not kick him for that. He is an incredible player regardless of what limitations we think he has ie is propensity to use the minor pent. He got time baby in his pocket, maybe he don´t play your fancy exotic scales but as bluesers and rockers go he as you rightly put is up there.

Absolutely. He is one of the best, and when you turns heads like he did once upon a time, that's proof enough.

Don´t get the Svr thing never been into him, to me just a flash jimi hendrix tribute...sorry thats what he´s famous for, he played like hendrix, with thick strings...hmmm not impressed. no offence to the dead like

The man had great technique, even EC was wowed. His fresh Texan style set things alight again in the blues world in early eighties. With a relatively short career, like that of Hendrix, it makes it harder to place him in amongst the competition, and those who came before him. He was not as prolific a songwriter as some of his contemporaries, so that probably costs him a few points in regards to the total impact of his legacy. But when he cut loose on those bad boy Strats of his, even slingers like Eddie Van Halen would bust a smile. I'm listening to Pride And Joy right now. Smilin' too.

[greenmanastrat]

I think thats it for me with svr the lack of song writing skills has always probably unjustly made me not judge him to kindly...he did however play the blues authewntic style like, when it was completely un fashionable with complete and utter conviction...have to give him total dues for that. So i´m glad he moves people, his heart was without doubt on his sleeve and in the right place as far as im concerned.

Recently saw a few clips of the kid john mayer, hate is voice but the kid plays good. Saw a clip with him and clappo was well impressed, singing sucked i may add again though by mayer.

[Mrpeabody]

Originally Posted by snoot

Well I'll just say this. I don't think Mike Bloomfield should be mentioned in the same breath as Peter Green. Now I realize there are folks who think Bloomie was the next best thing to sliced bread, but he was basically a study in the under-realized as far as I'm concerned. Like Green, he allowed drugs to largely derail what talent he did possess, only in his case it was a largely marginal career that never really matched most of the hype (which can't be said for Green and his accomplishments). Even that famed "Super Session", at least as it was ultimately portrayed and sold, was largely a blown up scam - which even he knew.

I also can't agree with one thing you said Vinnie, that being both were humble to a fault. Pete certainly was, but Mike was often brash and over-opinionated, thinking he held the pulse of his fellow musicians and the music industry in his hands. Go back and read his interviews! Reality was, he dodged stepping up to the plate time and again, which makes TALK CHEAP. When he should have been hitting home runs, he was instead questioning the accomplishments of others around him - the trends and trailblazers of the time - and wasting precious time.

Just look at his track record with Electric Flag, which was one of rank imitation (a la Stax stylings) and failed expectations, and yet he could hardly see it himself, even as it was smacking him in the face. Some of those know-it-all critics back east were calling the Flag rock's first supergroup! Give me a break. While he pompously "puffulated" on his rock counterparts, they were all basically kicking his butt in both reach and deed. And if this wasn't bad enough, he ultimately blamed his lack of recognition on all the mixed up, culturally devoid goyim he was cursed to have to play to. I mean, for me that was the last straw back then. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you! [the same one that feeds most other blues artists to boot, and keeps the genre alive].

Dude, did Bloomfield shoot your dog or something?

IMHO, Bloomfield was very underrated, but had the ego and brashness. The only contemporary players his age he ever deferred to were Hendrix and Clapton. But he did play and learn alongside all the Chicago blues icons when Greenie was still chopping meat. And because of how his talent developed, when Muddy calls you his son, I think you've achieved something.

If Bloomfield's career was "marginal" compared to Green's, it was because he wanted it that way. He was never comfortable with the "band leader" or front man job, which was one of the reasons the Flag failed. His 70s output, which were very minimally distributed and purposely low-key affairs, stands as some of the most truly inspired playing he ever did (see "If You Love These Blues" LP). Drugs and alcohol destroyed whatever ambition he had left by then.

I don't know what "puffulating" is, or how he did it, but he was very respectful of other guitarists, namely Ry Cooder, Eric Gale, Steve Cropper, and a whole host of others. He even name-checks them all (INCLUDING Peter Green) on "The Altar Song" on the album I named. But he did hate record execs who tried to exploit him and said so publicly.

Greenie and Bloomers were markedly different players, but both had the respect of their peers and their mentors. I love both for their different styles and approaches to the music. I'm not hung up on their color or the effectiveness of their various career moves.

[snoot]

Originally Posted by Mrpeabody

Dude, did Bloomfield shoot your dog or something?

When you bite the hands of the hapless goyim, what do you expect? (Next best thing to a dog I suppose)

IMHO, Bloomfield was very underrated, but had the ego and brashness. The only contemporary players his age he ever deferred to were Hendrix and Clapton.

You mean by ducking trading chops with them at nearly every opportunity that presented itself? Is that the mark of a grade A performer, let alone axe slinger? He couldn't even hang with Kooper during the so called Super Session, so Stills had to be called in to finish the project. The story of his life in so many ways.

But he did play and learn alongside all the Chicago blues icons when Greenie was still chopping meat. And because of how his talent developed, when Muddy calls you his son, I think you've achieved something.

When you kneel at their feet like he did, you can come off as something of a junior. That's cool if he wanted to mimic the Stax swing of things when the crowds had largely taken to different pastures, but to curse others for not "getting it" hahaha. Is that my misperception? Oh yeah, must be that damn goy thinking getting in the way again! [*slaps forehead for not knowing better*]

If Bloomfield's career was "marginal" compared to Green's, it was because he wanted it that way.

Ha! Like he had much of a choice in the matter. He had Albert Grossman and his wired connections in his pocket, plenty of advance money and the promotion machine was all in place. Not everyone gets it so easy. Green was known to hit home runs with less. Bloomie ... uh .... er ....

He was never comfortable with the "band leader" or front man job, which was one of the reasons the Flag failed.

Try this. He couldn't retain the reins of his Flag when a young cat named Miles was overtaking them. Not that it didn't needle him a plenty.

His 70s output, which were very minimally distributed and purposely low-key affairs, stands as some of the most truly inspired playing he ever did (see "If You Love These Blues" LP). Drugs and alcohol destroyed whatever ambition he had left by then.

Well when his never-ending insomnia and mainlining weren't superseding most everything else, sure you can bring up his "low key" approach, for all it was worth. What else was left for him by that point?

I don't know what "puffulating" is, or how he did it

Read it in the context of how it was delivered. You don't have to be a clairvoyant [that's called a "play" on words].

but he was very respectful of other guitarists, namely Ry Cooder, Eric Gale, Steve Cropper, and a whole host of others. He even name-checks them all (INCLUDING Peter Green) on "The Altar Song" on the album I named. But he did hate record execs who tried to exploit him and said so publicly.

Respectful to those he felt were kosher enough, ergo, those who were mostly walking on his side of the musical tracks.

Greenie and Bloomers were markedly different players, but both had the respect of their peers and their mentors. I love both for their different styles and approaches to the music. I'm not hung up on their color or the effectiveness of their various career moves.

Good for you. Now go back and revisit what I already wrote. You'll see I never said he couldn't play (though I'm not sure he should have left Butterfield from the start), but if he isn't a case of the under-realized considering the original potential, I don't know who is. When others, for whom he took jabs at, were stepping up to the plate, he made a career of largely ducking things, wasting time in low budget Hollywood tub thump productions, decrying why his Flagship and that "American music" panacea he was pushing wasn't sweeping the masses, and laying low enough to effectively dodge the radar, that one called reality. The times largely passed him by imo, even if the hype machine never let go.