The Ledge

Go Back   The Ledge > Main Forums > The Early Years
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read


Make the Ads Go Away! Click here.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-25-2006, 07:45 AM
Cussion Cussion is offline
Ledgie
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 63
Default The Munich accident

We all know about what may have happened to Peter in Munich 1970..

But, has anyone ever tried to track this people down again? The people from the mansion..
Has anybody went there to check that old house in the Munich woods?
Reply With Quote
.
  #2  
Old 06-25-2006, 05:53 PM
Wouter Vuijk's Avatar
Wouter Vuijk Wouter Vuijk is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 688
Default

And what about the tapes?????
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-25-2006, 06:11 PM
SortaSavageLike's Avatar
SortaSavageLike SortaSavageLike is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dark in my flaming staircase, being totally unfamiliar with the artist or her music
Posts: 2,442
Default

I'm pretty sure it didn't involve the Israeli Olympic team.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-26-2006, 02:01 PM
bretonbanquet's Avatar
bretonbanquet bretonbanquet is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 1,950
Default

How many people actually knew where the house was or who the people were? Peter isn't going to remember, but who else was there? Didn't Dinky Dawson go there?

The tapes must surely be lost or else they would have surfaced by now? Or does someone responsible own them?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-27-2006, 08:05 PM
becca's Avatar
becca becca is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 939
Default

I was just reading in Nick Mason's big book about Pink Floyd how Syd Barrett was living with people who would spike everything with acid and what a zombie it was turning him into. Later in the book after five years of not seeing him, Syd shows up at the Abbey Road studio and nobody recognizes him. Hair gone, looking like a vagrant without friends, gut protruding... sound familiar? It's like reading about either Peter or Danny.

Maybe the acid they had in Europe was bad stuff because Jerry Garcia seemed to be okay more or less and did I asume as much as any musician of the '60s. His playing and mind never deteriorated that I know of.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-28-2006, 12:17 AM
dino dino is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 635
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by becca
I was just reading in Nick Mason's big book about Pink Floyd how Syd Barrett was living with people who would spike everything with acid and what a zombie it was turning him into. Later in the book after five years of not seeing him, Syd shows up at the Abbey Road studio and nobody recognizes him. Hair gone, looking like a vagrant without friends, gut protruding... sound familiar? It's like reading about either Peter or Danny.

Maybe the acid they had in Europe was bad stuff because Jerry Garcia seemed to be okay more or less and did I asume as much as any musician of the '60s. His playing and mind never deteriorated that I know of.
Martin Celmins has a fairly good description of the Munich incident in his book on Peter. Apparently Dinky Dawson was there, and Jeremy Spencer seems to indicate that he was too? And they only stayed one night. It need repeating, that the live tapes of the Mac recorded after Munich features some incredible playing from Peter, as does a lot of the music he recorded during the early 70s. His health problems seems to have had more to with schizophrenia, which lsd can trigger. And the problems surely began earlier than Munich. It'd be nice to hear the tapes, though
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-28-2006, 12:28 AM
becca's Avatar
becca becca is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 939
Default

Syd Barrett did two solo albums right after the split with Pink Floyd so I suppose he could function some of the time. Perhaps like Danny later (who I read was at that house in Munich but some say he wasn't) he just didn't want to, which I can relate to as a commecial artist who has practically totally stopped doing what at one time I could never imagine not be doing.

I'm pretty much new to these stories of acid fallout but if you could add in Brian Jones... and I see photos of Peter where he is looking happy and healthy and then like the second Manalishi cover and some of the last tour photos looking really strange, like Syd, starting to stick out with scared looking eyes, and Danny had those eyes as well, Kurt Cobain eyes. Well, all I have to go by is stories people tell and photos. Jim Morrison is another who radically changed for the worse over a fairly short period too, and it's said he would go along with anyone while the rest of the band stayed back.

It would sure be nice to know more about all this.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-28-2006, 09:28 AM
sharksfan2000's Avatar
sharksfan2000 sharksfan2000 is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 982
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dino
Martin Celmins has a fairly good description of the Munich incident in his book on Peter. Apparently Dinky Dawson was there, and Jeremy Spencer seems to indicate that he was too? And they only stayed one night.
Actually, it seems pretty certain that only Peter and road manager Dennis Keane (or is it Kean or Keen - I've seen it spelled three ways!!) were at the Munich house that one night. Dinky Dawson accompanied Mick & Clifford Davis to retrieve Peter the next morning (and maybe Dennis too, although the accounts vary on whether or not he may have returned earlier without Peter).

Quote:
Originally Posted by dino
It needs repeating, that the live tapes of the Mac recorded after Munich features some incredible playing from Peter, as does a lot of the music he recorded during the early 70s. His health problems seems to have had more to with schizophrenia, which lsd can trigger. And the problems surely began earlier than Munich. It'd be nice to hear the tapes, though
Couldn't agree more!

I'm hardly an expert on LSD, but it seems like it was harmless enough to most people in the '60s. I'd have to guess that, like Peter, a lot of the people who had problems afterwards may have had some underlying and in some cases entirely hidden health issues that were triggered by the acid (like Peter's schizophrenia). I don't know a lot about Syd Barrett, but perhaps that was an issue with him as well. Skip Spence of Jefferson Airplane and Moby Grape was another well-known performer who may have suffered similar problems. Remember that Dennis Keane was also at the Munich house and presumably took the same acid as Peter did, yet according to Celmins' book that had no adverse affect on him.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-28-2006, 12:20 PM
mzero mzero is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 257
Default

sf2k is correct, at least according to mc's book it was dennis that was at the munich house with peter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sharksfan2000

I'm hardly an expert on LSD, but it seems like it was harmless enough to most people in the '60s. I'd have to guess that, like Peter, a lot of the people who had problems afterwards may have had some underlying and in some cases entirely hidden health issues that were triggered by the acid (like Peter's schizophrenia). I don't know a lot about Syd Barrett, but perhaps that was an issue with him as well. Skip Spence of Jefferson Airplane and Moby Grape was another well-known performer who may have suffered similar problems. Remember that Dennis Keane was also at the Munich house and presumably took the same acid as Peter did, yet according to Celmins' book that had no adverse affect on him.
i do know a fair bit about syd barrett. his case is similar in that he was under tremendous pressure to produce hit records and lead the band. was different in that, by all accounts that i've read, he took much more acid than pete (both intentionally and spiked) and very large quantities other drugs (mandrax). some believe this led to serious brain damage as well as induced mental illness. as i recall both roger waters and david gilmour (who both knew him as teenagers) believe that there were possibly underlying latent mental issues that the drug use brought on. barrett has well recovered to that the degree that he has lived alone and maintained a house for many years now. i believe that barrett does not have schizophrenia although he prefers not to interact with people other than relatives and tends to depression. on the otherhand, again according to what i've read, he paints and gardens,does his own shopping and is on good terms with his neighbors.

skip spence was schizophrenic which was brought on by drug use. the onset of his illness was sudden, coincided with drug use and associating with people with dubious intentions (a self-proclaimed witch). he tried to attack some of his bandmates with a fire-axe and was institutionalized. he never fully recovered but did cut one album immediately after he was released. he, unlike pete, had no family to look after him and no royalties to subsist on. subsequently he spent the next 30 years drifting, much of the time from the mid seventies to early 90's as a transient. still he was active musically off in san jose, santa cruz, and in the santa cruz mtns up around ben lomand. though virtually no material was formally recorded or was released. some of the original doobie brothers were associates of skip's in the early 1970's. and up until the few months before he died skip was making music, also unreleased. according to what i've read, spence was a very unusual person even before the drug use - could pick up new instruments with no training, could compose songs and arrangements in his head etc.

zero
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-28-2006, 01:43 PM
monkeydevil monkeydevil is offline
Ledgie
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 49
Default

Thanks Zero for this interesting information on Syd and Skip!

I didn´t know that skip Spence was so ill as you describe.

Here are a couple of pictures I found recently of SYD:

Syd in 1969


Syd in 1983


Syd in 1989


Syd in 2002


Syd in 2005
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-28-2006, 03:00 PM
becca's Avatar
becca becca is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 939
Default

Thanks for the insights!

The photo of Syd in Nick Mason's book from 1975 is kind of startling because he looks a lot like that 2002 photo! Having an aversion to the music 'industry' as Peter and Syd had is certainly not only sane but generally healthy. Why anybody wanted to do a lot of acid I have no idea as a little would go a long long way, but like vitamins some people think if a little is good a lot is better and so get vitamin C poisoning or liver damage.

Peter's playing and singing on The Splinter Group recordings are better if anything to me than earlier stuff, but the songwriting certainly seems to have gone or been very dramatically lessened.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-28-2006, 03:15 PM
dino dino is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 635
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mzero
sf2k is correct, at least according to mc's book it was dennis that was at the munich house with peter.



i do know a fair bit about syd barrett. his case is similar in that he was under tremendous pressure to produce hit records and lead the band. was different in that, by all accounts that i've read, he took much more acid than pete (both intentionally and spiked) and very large quantities other drugs (mandrax). some believe this led to serious brain damage as well as induced mental illness. as i recall both roger waters and david gilmour (who both knew him as teenagers) believe that there were possibly underlying latent mental issues that the drug use brought on. barrett has well recovered to that the degree that he has lived alone and maintained a house for many years now. i believe that barrett does not have schizophrenia although he prefers not to interact with people other than relatives and tends to depression. on the otherhand, again according to what i've read, he paints and gardens,does his own shopping and is on good terms with his neighbors.

skip spence was schizophrenic which was brought on by drug use. the onset of his illness was sudden, coincided with drug use and associating with people with dubious intentions (a self-proclaimed witch). he tried to attack some of his bandmates with a fire-axe and was institutionalized. he never fully recovered but did cut one album immediately after he was released. he, unlike pete, had no family to look after him and no royalties to subsist on. subsequently he spent the next 30 years drifting, much of the time from the mid seventies to early 90's as a transient. still he was active musically off in san jose, santa cruz, and in the santa cruz mtns up around ben lomand. though virtually no material was formally recorded or was released. some of the original doobie brothers were associates of skip's in the early 1970's. and up until the few months before he died skip was making music, also unreleased. according to what i've read, spence was a very unusual person even before the drug use - could pick up new instruments with no training, could compose songs and arrangements in his head etc.

zero
yes, sorry, it was dennis at the house. and as you say, he did the same lsd and didn't suffer any ill effects. Some people should never take lsd, while others apparently can handle it. But the parallell with syd barret is interesting, whereas he could be termed an "acid casualty", peter is not, at least not in the same sense.
The skip spence album is called "oar", i believe. Hailed as a classic by some critics, has anyone haerd it?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-28-2006, 10:51 PM
mzero mzero is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 257
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dino
yes, sorry, it was dennis at the house. and as you say, he did the same lsd and didn't suffer any ill effects. Some people should never take lsd, while others apparently can handle it. But the parallell with syd barret is interesting, whereas he could be termed an "acid casualty", peter is not, at least not in the same sense.
The skip spence album is called "oar", i believe. Hailed as a classic by some critics, has anyone haerd it?
d- i have 'oar'. in some ways it is very similar to the first barrett solo lp, 'the madcap laughs' in that it is strange, spare, out of its time, and not produced. if anything it is spacier that 'ml'. but it is different in that barrett's was recorded over a serious of sessions of more than a year with different producers and pieced together with little input from syd. skip's was done entirely by himself. he played all the instruments, produced and it was recorded in a matter of days. there is nothing like it. but , knowing what was going on when it was recorded, immediately after, and some of what eventually happened to skip, i have trouble listening to it all the way through without getting completely wiped out.

there is an interesting skip tribute (that i do not have) where the whole oar album is remade by fans (e.g., robert plant (a huge moby grape and champion of skip), tom waits, beck) who you'd never guess were influenced by someone ultimately so obscure and lost.

zero
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-29-2006, 06:14 AM
eclipse's Avatar
eclipse eclipse is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: In the bak of your mind....
Posts: 1,004
Question Details please

I am somewhat new to the "older Mac" stories and history...
Can someone give me a little "Readers Digest" version of "The Munich Accident". I gather, from what I read that Peter was at a mansion in Munich- took lsd and ...what...flipped out?
Was it supposed to be the first time that he encountered the drug...or his last?

Thanks for any background
__________________

For never have I been a blue calm sea...I have always been a storm, always been a storm... sln
~~eclipse~~
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-30-2006, 04:48 AM
dino dino is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 635
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eclipse
I am somewhat new to the "older Mac" stories and history...
Can someone give me a little "Readers Digest" version of "The Munich Accident". I gather, from what I read that Peter was at a mansion in Munich- took lsd and ...what...flipped out?
Was it supposed to be the first time that he encountered the drug...or his last?

Thanks for any background
Ok, I'll jump on it...

The "accident" took place in Munich, Germany in March, 1970, probably after the concert on March 22. However , M. Celmins claims that the band were in Munich for 3 days, which doesn't agree with the tour itinerary found on the FM legacy website (March 23 they played in Nurnberg). The men who were there remembers it like this:

Accoring to road manager Dennis Keen:
After the gig Peter was invited to a party by a beautiful girl, so he and road manager Dennis Keen went. They got to a big house (a "hippie" commune) where a party was underway, and drank wine that was spiked with lsd (both of them).

Keen only has one memory of Peter during their 24-hour stay, of him jamming some weird music in the basement. Keen found the atmosphere strange and wanted to leave after some 10 hours, and called Clifford Davis to come and get them.

Peter green:
Peter says they were met at the airport in Munich by a boy and a girl, who came to the hotel after the show and invited them to the "commune". He and dennis went there, he played some exciting music and was put to bed by a girl, tripping and tired. The concert next day he felt "marvelous, fresh and not grubby". He does recall the acid trip as being pretty wild...but he didn't "flip out" afterwards or anything.

It's hard to say what impact the famous acid trip had. Green obviously had thought of leaving the band before Munich. McVie and Fleetwood's reaction the whole Munich thing (shock, anger), at a guess, was maybe coloured by peter leaving the group shortly afterwards. On the other hand, the commune people may have tried to drum something into Peter; rock music was a target for anarchistic youth back then, as was becoming more commercial (higher prices on concert tickets etc.). It doesn't ring true however that that one trip destroyed Peter, he had done acid several times before and did afterwards too, I gather.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Fleetwood Mac Signed Guitar Buckingham McVie Fleetwood Autographed Strat -Nicks
$899.0
Fleetwood Mac Signed Guitar Buckingham McVie Fleetwood Autographed Strat -Nicks pictureThree Signed Fleetwood Mac "Rumours" Autograph (3) PSA Original 1977 -1st Press
$890.0
Three Signed Fleetwood Mac Stevie Nicks autograph. Fleetwood Mac. Bella Donna. Trouble in Shangri-La.
$599.0
Stevie Nicks autograph. Fleetwood Mac. Bella Donna. Trouble in Shangri-La.  pictureFleetwood Mac Signed Guitar Lindsey Buckingham Autographed Strat. (Nicks, McVee)
$499.0
Fleetwood Mac Signed Guitar Lindsey Buckingham Autographed Strat. (Nicks, McVee) pictureFleetwood Mac Vintage Jacket 70s/80s Rock Band From England.
$450.0
Fleetwood Mac Vintage Jacket 70s/80s Rock Band From England. picture



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
© 1995-2003 Martin and Lisa Adelson, All Rights Reserved