Is Carlos Santana really all that? - Page 5

estranged4life · #61 12-10-2002, 12:43 PM

if you can find them, Definately some great stuff, But George's demos are mindblowingly good (Highly recommended is the "The Making Of All Things Must Pass Sessions 1-3", I wonder how many of these demos will make the upcoming "George Harrison Boxed Set"???)...Brian "Named after THE Beach Boy" J.

CarneVaca · #62 12-10-2002, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by madformac
On the positive side I did mention to ChiliD many months ago that McCartney's songs will stand the test of time far longer than Lennon's. John Lennon was a musical genius but McCartney's songs are more "mainstream" if you like, they certainly get more airtime on UK radio. John's work pushed the boundaries more than Paul's I feel, who had a more balanced approach to his writing.

Hmmm, you may be right, only because Paul's songs are more mainstream. However, John's songs will always have a special place in the public consciousness because so many of them were so meaningful. Though Yesterday is the most covered song ever, I believe John's Imagine will go down as one of those timeless pop masterpieces that will continue to give people solace whenever another bout of senseless evil grips this crazy old world.

Also keep in mind that often it is that quirky song that breaks new ground that will never grow tiresome. Think of Yesterday and how different it was then for the Beatles, or The Rolling Stones' Sympathy for the Devil, and yes, even Go Your Own Way. As I recall, that is the only Fleetwood Mac song that was chosen for the Smithsonian's (anyway, I think it was the Smithsonian) 300 great pop tunes of the 20th century. Of course no one really thinks of Go Your Own Way as quirky now, especially since Tusk, but think about how different it sounded in 1977.

Chili, I should say that I forgot when writing that last post that I kind of enjoyed some of the Run Devil Run stuff. Hey, that old-time rockabilly stuff still gets my foot a-tappin'. So Sir Paul gets a point there. Aren't I generous?

Cristian · #63 12-10-2002, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CarneVaca
My point was that in my opinion he was once great, but now he is merely pathetic. And has been so for a while.

I do believe that he's going in a "downhill" process, or so. I mean, I loathed everything on Driving Rain except for "Heather" (the song, people, the song), I think it was just pure mediocrity adorned with synthesisers. But I still do think he can make some good music. At least when he's not trying that hard. Look at the tunes of Flaming Pie, he sounds terrific on the simpler ones, like "Calico Skies", "Little Willow", than on the other "more-ellaborated, pop-oriented" ones ("The World Tonight", "Young Boy").

Quote:

Look I'm a big Lennon fan. Just as I am a big Lindsey fan. McCartney just doesn't do it for me.

That makes a big difference... You wouldn't be the first one I know that is a Lennon fan and that Paul doesn't have any effect on them. I suppose it's a matter of opinion. I like solo works for both of them, with exceptions (McCartney II and a couple of others by Paul, Some Time In NYC and all the experimental stuff from John), but I am absolutely a George man myself. An that was waaay before he died. I believe he who was a good songwriter inside The Beatles became a genious with All Things Must Pass (good point about the demos, estranged4life, they are breath-taking indeed

) and with his posterior albums, especially in overlooked gems like 33 & 1/3, George Harrison, Cloud Nine and even Brainwashed, an album that IMO should have gotten more attention than it did get. But then it was Paul's new CD that sold much more copies... Oh don't get me started on that issue...

Song of the moment - Talkin' To My Heart

Cristian · #64 12-10-2002, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chiliD
he took a big slide downhill. "Speed Of Sound"...UGH! (except for "Beware My Love")

I happen to enjoy "Warm And Beautiful" lots, but overall it's a very mediocre album... Stressed by the fact that even Linda gets to sing... Ugh, indeed.

Quote:

he's just been getting better and releasing, to me anyway, his best post-Beatles material EVER.

So... another point of disagreement... I do think that Driving Rain is one of the most mediocre things he's ever released... And that's what started me to get a little afraid of where Paul could be doing. Run Devil Run was an extremelly well crafted work, looking at all rock and roll songs and singing them extraordinarily, adding a couple of new songs... It was authentic. Driving Rain was, to me, disappointing to say the least.

Song of the moment - Talkin' To My Heart

seteca · #65 12-10-2002, 08:59 PM

I don't know anywhere near enough about Lennon/McCartney/Beatles to make an interesting addition to this discussion, but I do agree with two things that have been said here:

Madformac: yep, I though it was absolutely pathetic that McCartney decided to "wear what he's most comfortable in" for the Queen's Jubilee. If you've been asked to perform at a concert for the Queen, it's a privilege, doesn't matter who you are, or you think you are. As you quite rightly said, Eric Clapton had the decency to wear a very nice (99% sure it was black label Armani) suit, why couldn't Paul...?

CarneVaca: Yep, "Freedom" was, IMHO, one of the worst songs I've ever heard in my life. He said something like "we've only taken a couple of days to write this song".....and it SHOWED! It sounded like he came up with it on the way to the concert.......

Two more things, firstly, "arrogant" is an understatement for his wife. Secondly, what's with all the make up Paul wears every time he's been in public for the past couple of years??? The guy who used to be a sex icon and one of the most "manly" celebs in the 60s now has his face layered with foundation and his eyebrows look totally plucked....!!

tuigirl · #66 12-11-2002, 04:00 AM

.....Can I just jump in here... and say.... this is a LINDSEY board.. NOT a people bashing board, honestly, you GUYS all seem to get your knickers in a twist sometimes

can't we quit while wer'e ahead and talk about something else more Lindsey related!

CarneVaca · #67 12-11-2002, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tuigirl
.....Can I just jump in here... and say.... this is a LINDSEY board.. NOT a people bashing board, honestly, you GUYS all seem to get your knickers in a twist sometimes can't we quit while wer'e ahead and talk about something else more Lindsey related!

You want Lindsey related? Paul McCartney sucks, and Lindsey doesn't. How's that? Don't like it, just move on to the next board.

Cristian · #68 12-11-2002, 11:34 AM

No more comments from me. You said it all.

Song of the moment - Blow By Blow

chiliD · #69 12-11-2002, 11:42 AM

Quote:

.....Can I just jump in here... and say.... this is a LINDSEY board.. NOT a people bashing board, honestly, you GUYS all seem to get your knickers in a twist sometimes can't we quit while wer'e ahead and talk about something else more Lindsey related!

Then start a thread...this thread has its own life and flow, thanks for the positive addition to it.

Street Angel · #70 12-11-2002, 11:56 AM

And some of you make fun of other posters discussing Stevie Nicks´ choice of dresses or her boyfriends?

About Paul going downhill... Well, after my initial enthusiasm about "Driving Rain" in the first weeks after its release I must admit now I wish he would finally rely a bit less on the "With the Beatles, I wrote three songs in one afternoon" idea. This concept was an anecdote he *loved* to tell every journalist during his PR campaign for the album. PR professional that he is, he knew that the media would love to report about that approach (with all the post-Anthology adoration of everything Beatles), including all the principles that are being called "Beatle-esque". The way DR was described by himself was Paul´s attempt at selling the record as his version of the Beatles´ working methods ca. 1965 ("Rubber Soul" etc.)
What he consciously forgot was mentioning on the other hand the love for detail and careful work that made albums like "Sgt. Pepper" and "Abbey Road" so exceptional.

The trouble with some of the DR songs was... the three BEATLES songs in one afternoon didn´t sound like jam sessions captured on tape. They had memorable melodies, which is probably Paul´s biggest forte. Over the years since the Beatles broke up, it´s always been the same thing: When Paul is writing good melodies (lyrics are certainly a different matter) he often has someone or something to challenge him artistically. When he´s actually recording them, he often needs someone to stop him when he´s putting a bit too much gloss on them or more often, when he´s choosing the wrong songs. Some of his unreleased songs make you wonder why Paul made certain choices for his albums. On DR, it was the reverse problem. Nobody (especially David Kahne) MADE him finally add some gloss to the songs and more importantly, Kahne didn´t tell him that some of the songs might be called "spontaneous" but that that term doesn´t necessarily imply "made up on the spot and quickly recorded" or even equal "a good song".

I´ve always preferred the studio perfectionist McCartney who was working carefully on songs for albums like "Ram", "Tug Of War", "Press To Play" or "Flowers In The Dirt" (both composing and arrangement-wise). Sometimes he may have gone over the top (and you can´t rescue a bad song itself by long, hard studio work, as we know - that´s why I love Lindsey´s GOS, BTW - good songs AND dedicated studio work), but I still think "Driving Rain" was a nice and interesting experiment sound-wise, just like some of his other albums with the same idea ("Press To Play" or "McCartney II"). It didn´t entirely work out, but like I once said in another post - I prefer seeing him trying something new than to come up with a "Paul McCartney is re-writing his old hits" record.

Cristian, don´t worry - there should be hope.

Remember "Wild Life"? It was followed by "Red Rose Speedway" and even better, "Band On The Run"... "McCartney II?" Followed by "Tug Of War"... if that pattern continues there should be some more good music coming from him. Apart from that, McCartney is far too competitive (even if he doesn´t need the money anymore) to watch another album crash commercially like DR did. Sometimes one of the challenges I was talking about above includes a commercial failure of one of his albums.

About McCartney´s solo career in general - sure, not everything lives up to the Beatles standards. But looking at his huge back catalogue, it´s a bit unfair to dismiss everything as mainstream junk. Of course the hit singles are remembered first and foremost. Take a deeper look into the material that was *not* an A-side, did not get the radio airplay like "Silly Love Songs" or "Ebony And Ivory" or was even hidden on some obscure non-album B-sides (admittedly another proof for McCartney´s lack of judgment sometimes). And John Lennon wasn´t always much better in that equation "mainstream = crap" either... "Whatever Gets You Through The Night" was a US No.1, as far as I can remember, yet I can´t say that this was one of his most glorious moments. Highly commercial music and no earth-shattering or at least philosophical revelations in these lyrics either - I enjoy the song anyway.
"Some people want to fill the world with silly love songs... and what´s wrong with that?"

chiliD · #71 12-11-2002, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Take a deeper look into the material that was *not* an A-side, did not get the radio airplay like "Silly Love Songs" or "Ebony And Ivory" or was even hidden on some obscure non-album B-sides (admittedly another proof for McCartney´s lack of judgment sometimes).

Some big examples of this are:

"Let Me Roll It" (album track from "Band On The Run")
"Call Me Back Again" (album track from "Venus & Mars")
"Girls' School" (B-side of "Mull Of Kintyre")
"Name & Address" (album track on "London Town")
"Oh Woman Oh Why" (B-side of "Another Day")
"Coming Up" (the Wings live version being the single...MUCH better decision than releasing the "McCartney II" studio track...kind of the same thing as "Not That Funny"...the studio version, TO ME, is one of FMac's "bottom 10", but the live version rocks!! See? I got "Lindsey" involved!!!

)
"What's That You're Doing" (album track from "Tug Of War"...the OTHER duet with Stevie Wonder...MUCH better than "E&I", to my ears)

Quote:

And John Lennon wasn´t always much better in that equation "mainstream = crap" either... "Whatever Gets You Through The Night" was a US No.1, as far as I can remember, yet I can´t say that this was one of his most glorious moments.

Even thought "WGYTTN" was credited to John Lennon, Elton's voice & overall "sound" seems to be in the forefront. If this had come out under Elton's name, I doubt anyone would've noticed that John Lennon even wrote the song, it sounds SO much like your run-of-the-mill Elton John song from that era (except the saxophone part was typical for a Lennon production of that era, too).

His "Woman" from Double Fantasy sound like it could've been a McCartney song from that era, too...for the appearance of John & Paul being poles apart philosophically, they were actually more alike than most people will admit to.

Cristian · #72 12-11-2002, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Street Angel
What he consciously forgot was mentioning on the other hand the love for detail and careful work that made albums like "Sgt. Pepper" and "Abbey Road" so exceptional.

Street Angel, nice to see you! Agree with the vision that you just posted. Paul used the very same approach with the Run Devil Run tracks, but, to me, it reached a much more powerful status since it was a pure rock and roll album, without major pretentions. Driving Rain, to me, seems unfinished and poorly-produced.

Quote:

I´ve always preferred the studio perfectionist McCartney who was working carefully on songs for albums like "Ram", "Tug Of War", "Press To Play" or "Flowers In The Dirt" (both composing and arrangement-wise).

He obiously spent lots of time recording the Ram album, which remains my favorite of his. Ellaborating the melodies, working on the arrangements and the vocals, perfectioning the instruments, looking for new sounds... Something that he had while with The Beatles and apparently has lost now.

Quote:

Cristian, don´t worry - there should be hope. Remember "Wild Life"? It was followed by "Red Rose Speedway" and even better, "Band On The Run"... "McCartney II?" Followed by "Tug Of War"... if that pattern continues there should be some more good music coming from him. Apart from that, McCartney is far too competitive (even if he doesn´t need the money anymore) to watch another album crash commercially like DR did.

One could only hope that after the big failure that Driving Rain was, Paul tries to write something more cohesive and sincere and comes up with a new little gem like those ones you mentioned. But I'm still hopeless, I tell you, hopeless...

About his songs not always being the best choices for singles, I wholeheartedly agree! Not even "Maybe I'm Amazed" (my favorite song of his) was chosen as a single from the first album! And to prove it more, my favorite songs are not at all singles:

Every Night (McCartney)
Junk (McCartney)
Oh Woman Oh Why (B side to Another Day)
Too Many People (Ram)
Dear Boy (Ram)
Long Haired Lady (Ram)
Some People Never Know (Wings Wild Life)
Tomorrow (Wings Wild Life)
Little Woman Love (B side to Mary Had A Little Lamb)
Big Barn Bed (Red Rose Speedway)
Little Lamb Dragonfly (Red Rose Speedway)
No Words (Band On The Run)
Let Me Roll It (Band On The Run)
1985 (Band On The Run)
You Gave Me The Answer (Venus & Mars)

etc. etc. etc....

Song of the moment - Blow By Blow

jeffles · #73 12-16-2002, 04:03 PM

Band on the Run is my favorite McCartney/Wings album, almost as good is Ram. 1985 is one of my favorite songs of his. Many of his best songs weren't even singles, as indicated earlier by others. I havent heard Driving Rain, but I happened to think Flaming Pie, with some help from Jeff Lynne, was remarkably good.

Mac Fan · #74 12-16-2002, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by estranged4life
guitarist to add to your list chiliD:

Gary Moore (Has anyone heard his live performance of "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" that he did with George Harrison???)

Is he the one who was in Tin Lizzy and has covered Stop messin' round?
If the answer is yes, I love his music.

estranged4life · #75 12-16-2002, 05:37 PM

"Is he the one who was in Tin Lizzy and has covered Stop messin' round?
If the answer is yes, I love his music."

Gary Moore played in Thin Lizzy and has covered Peter Green songs & released a tribute album to his mentor Peter Green called "Blues For Greenie"...G.M. is one of my favorite guitarist ever, Brian J.