Mick's book-what's the problem?

[Carole Ann]

...I'd say it is and always HAS been the percussion section.

Whadd'ya say, Chill-man?

[Ghosty]

Stevie has had a very popular solo career compared to all of them, so not to say that makes her better or anything, but she seemed more in demand. So I would think she had atleast a *little* something to do about FM's success. As much as there are people that don't like her, there seems to be a hundred times more who do. I don't even see how that can be argued, even if you *don't* like her. She was pretty darn big in her day, and isn't exactly nothing these days either.

[chiliD]

...I'd say it is and always HAS been the percussion section.

Very, VERY good point...and, the bass player. "You're a monster, John!"

are you suggesting that fleetwood mac's success had nothing to do with lindsey and stevie's contribution?

No, I'm not...but, when they joined, there were some factors that led to their "success" already in motion. Read on.

They lucked into that enormous wave of momentum and popularity that was breaking after the fake band fiasco and Bob Welch left?

Actually, "enormous" is your word; I never used that. That there WAS a Fleetwood Mac for Lindsey & Stevie to join was due IN A LARGE WAY to Bob Welch keeping the band a viable entity. The spin doctoring he had to do with the record company to trust them. Plus, the litigation surrounding that whole "fake band" issue WAS big news. That the band survived and were able to tour, release an album, do TV show appearances, live radio broadcasts, etc, DID get the Fleetwood Mac name "out there" once again...that people didn't buy the album in droves wasn't the issue...that Fleetwood Mac was for all intents & purposes the band members themselves and not a "name" owned by some disinterested manager was. There was a "Buzz" starting to happen about the band just when Welch burnt out and left. Stevie & Lindsey entered just at the right time. THAT's what I'm saying. Sure, they took the ball and ran with it...but, they were lucky that there was a band to join.

She only joined the band because Lindsey insisted that Mick take them as a package.

(Similar situtation with Billy & Rick...Billy brought Rick along because Billy was insecure about his own guitar playing. They came in as "a package", as well.)

And, maybe, just maybe, Lindsey SAID that to Mick thinking that Mick would say, "oh, ok, never mind". That it would be Lindsey's way of saying "thanks for asking, but we're doing our thing". It took Stevie's "buying all their albums listening to them backwards & forwards; hearing a common thread in the music" and seemingly CONVINCING Lindsey that they would have something to add to the band; if nothing else, they'd have an INCOME at what they wanted to be doing for a time anyway. But, instead, not only did they make a wage, they hit the friggin' LOTTERY.
Lindsey's never REALLY been happy being in Fleetwood Mac since he joined (it seems)...from day one, it's seemed as though he was trying to either get kicked out or quit. Read Welch's Q&A for his account of he & Lindsey having the conversation of how unhappy Lindsey was being in the band...and that was during the RUMOURS sessions...things got worse when Lindsey wanted to "do his thing" for "Tusk". Mick even told him (Paraphrasing from Mick's book) "Look, Lindsey, either you're in the band or you're not, you can't have it both ways". Lindsey again seemed to him & haw over really wanting to set aside his solo project for "Tango In The Night", as well.

They changed the sound of the band as completely as Bob changed the sound of the band when he joined

In some ways, yes, others, no. Listen to "She's Changing Me" from "Heroes"...not a big difference between the feel of that song and the feel of the entire white album....it would've fit seamlessly on that album. Lindsey's natural sound had a similar feel to what Danny Kirwan had 3-4 years earlier, "Sands Of Time", "Child Of Mine", "Dust" in retrospect all have a very Lindsey feel to them. I'm not saying that Lindsey & Stevie DIDN'T add to the Fleetwood Mac sound...they were a perfect fit for the time. But, to say that they ARE Fleetwood Mac and that any other incarnation is invalid is wrong...just wrong.

Stevie has had a very popular solo career compared to all of them..

Can't argue with that, but let's not forget Bob Welch's "French Kiss" album had 4 hit singles, as well...and "Three Hearts" had two, "The Other One" also had a couple. Actually, "French Kiss" alone had more "hits" than all of Lindsey's solo albums combined.


Bottom line, folks...if I was REALLY that turned off by, or REALLY had that little respect for the contributions of Lindsey & Stevie to Fleetwood Mac, would I even STILL be the Fleetwood Mac fan I AM??? JEEEEZ, SOMEBODY's gotta keep rattling the cage when the "offerings to the "God & Goddess of Fleetwood Mac" get too far over-the-top!

[wondergirl9847]

"God & Goddess of Fleetwood Mac"

Well, at least you got the titles right, chilid! LMAO! I'm just ribbin ya. *wink*

[estranged4life]

this thread makes for a great reading...It's seems kinda familiar to me because on another NG about another band, There is the almost the same arguments about in support of the "former" members of the band versus the "current" members of this band...

Anyways, If anyone asks me what my opinion of who/what made the 'Mac famous (Even after reading Mick's book) I will quote that famous verse of Ozzy's "Don't look at me for answers...Dont ask me, I Don't know...", Brian

PS-"I'd say it is and always HAS been the percussion section."

"Very, VERY good point...and, the bass player. "You're a monster, John!"...I have to agree, Us Bassist's seem to stick to our own kind..hehehehe

[David]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I don't buy into the myth that Lindsey and Stevie are the "be all and end all" of Fleetwood Mac. Only Lindsey, as far as I am concerned.

Borrowing from Updike there for my title ....

Lindsey's quite a guy, as is Peter. Brilliant!

John, too. What a bassist!

Danny? Great tone on that ax!

Mr. Mick -- that dynamo's sound does the trick for me!

Stevie? Those old "Rhiannons" -- gotta love it!

As for Welch, bodacious!

Jeremy really rocked, God knows!

Rick & Billy jammed!

Bekka, what a babe!

Dave -- great singing voice!

But who was the incomparable Bitch Goddess Supremo who, before playing "Songbird" every night, used to tell everyone to drive home safely?

You can't get any cooler or greater than that. She's it.

[Carole Ann]

Too cool for school!

[Les]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chiliD
Actually, "enormous" is your word; I never used that. That there WAS a Fleetwood Mac for Lindsey & Stevie to join was due IN A LARGE WAY to Bob Welch keeping the band a viable entity.

And I like Bob Welch very much. I never argued that he didn't keep the band a viable entity. He deserves all the credit in the world for it.

You're right, "enormous" was my word. Your words were that Stevie and Lindsey "just happened to LUCK into being there at the time the band became WILDLY popular." Viable? Yes. Good? Yes. Buzz? I'll take your word for it. Wildly popular that Stevie and Lindsey lucked into? That's not any more accurate than saying that Stevie and Lindsey are the end all be all.

There was a "Buzz" starting to happen about the band just when Welch burnt out and left. Stevie & Lindsey entered just at the right time. THAT's what I'm saying. Sure, they took the ball and ran with it...but, they were lucky that there was a band to join.

If that's what you're saying now, then I would agree with that a little bit more. Though I'd still argue, based on what Bob Welch himself said in his Q&A, that the joining of Lindsey and Stevie was not met with open arms and great enthusiasm by the label. The band, with the Buckingham Nicks unit added, had to work hard, with little promotional help from the label, to get the band on its feet and headed strongly its new direction again. Absolutely, Fleetwood Mac was a nice step up from poverty in BuckinghamNicks when their label dropped their album and made no attempts whatsoever to give it boost, but success was something they earned in the band. It wasn't quite handed to them.

Read Welch's Q&A for his account of he & Lindsey having the conversation of how unhappy Lindsey was being in the band...and that was during the RUMOURS sessions...things got worse when Lindsey wanted to "do his thing" for "Tusk".

That conversation was one Bob and Lindsey had just months after Lindsey joined, not during the Rumours sessions, and Bob seemed in quite a bit of sympathy with Lindsey's difficulty in trying to break through the Fleetwood-McVies clique to understand how he fit in with them and why they wanted him.

Lindsey "doing his thing" for Tusk could be compared in many ways to Peter's "doing his thing" for Then Play On. One member of the band with a vision trying to push the boundaries a little bit. Sometimes the pushing was well-received and sometimes it wasn't.

Mick even told him (Paraphrasing from Mick's book) "Look, Lindsey, either you're in the band or you're not, you can't have it both ways". Lindsey again seemed to him & haw over really wanting to set aside his solo project for "Tango In The Night", as well.

That was, according to Lindsey, Mick's perhaps slightly over the top answer when Lindsey expressed a desire to try something else that they weren't trying during the Rumours sessions. So is that Lindsey really trying to get kicked out or is that Lindsey trying to discuss different ideas and being met with resistence? It's not wrong if Mick resisted, but it's not wrong that Lindsey tried to push a little either. He was trying to figure out his role so that it would be something they'd like and something fulfilling to him too.

Lindsey has said on more than one occasion that he may never have even tried to have a solo career if he thought Fleetwood Mac were really that open to him pushing for his more experimental ideas anymore after Tusk. He didn't think they were, so he created this outlet for himself so he wouldn't "impose" those ideas on unwilling participants anymore. That could be seen as trying fairly hard to figure out how to be a team player but not give up his own directions either.

And despite the hemming and hawing over Tango, Lindsey did set aside the solo stuff and he and Christine put in more time on that album than anyone else did. He left before the tour due largely to the same burn out and weariness and worries that Peter and Bob had when they left.

But, to say that they ARE Fleetwood Mac and that any other incarnation is invalid is wrong...just wrong.

Maybe this comment isn't directed to me, but since you quoted my post, let me just say -- Didn't say it. I don't regard any incarnation as invalid. But certainly, based on my own tastes, I regard certain incarnations as less interesting.

JEEEEZ, SOMEBODY's gotta keep rattling the cage when the "offerings to the "God & Goddess of Fleetwood Mac" get too far over-the-top!

Hehehe.

[myndpeace]

Chili, the reason why we are all picking on you is that deep down inside we know that you are the most knowledgeable about the band and that you're probably right

Originally posted by chiliD

That there WAS a Fleetwood Mac for Lindsey & Stevie to join was due IN A LARGE WAY to Bob Welch keeping the band a viable entity.

I'm in total agreement with you here, of course, but the same goes for nearly all the other members. The fact that Danny Kirwan continued with the band after Peter left was equally important in saving the band after the loss of their founding member (As was Peter's brief return after Jeremy went crazy). Bob Welch deserves more credit than most Mac fans (and even, it appears, some of the band members) give him, for transforming the band from a heavy blues jam band to a lighter rock band.

Since luck has been mentioned, I'll address it. Even the most die-hard Stevie fan will admit that her joining the band was due to Lindsey insisting that she join and Mick saying OK. But Lindsey's joining was also sheer luck; it had just so happened that Mick had heard a recording of Buckingham Nicks when he was looking for a studio to record the next album. Unfortunately for many struggling musicians, the music business is such that luck often plays a larger part in determining success that does actual talent.

But the fact that the Rumours lineup is critically, popularly, and commercially the most successful can only mean that Lindsey and Stevie did indeed have the talent and flair that the band needed to go from a mildly successful band to a history-making, record-breaking superband. So the luck arguement cuts both ways -- Lindsey and Stevie owe their success to Fleetwood Mac, but at the same time, FM would probably not be around today, or at least as big as they are today, without them.

And, maybe, just maybe, Lindsey SAID that to Mick thinking that Mick would say, "oh, ok, never mind". That it would be Lindsey's way of saying "thanks for asking, but we're doing our thing". It took Stevie's "buying all their albums listening to them backwards & forwards; hearing a common thread in the music" and seemingly CONVINCING Lindsey that they would have something to add to the band; if nothing else, they'd have an INCOME at what they wanted to be doing for a time anyway. But, instead, not only did they make a wage, they hit the friggin' LOTTERY.
Lindsey's never REALLY been happy being in Fleetwood Mac since he joined (it seems)...from day one, it's seemed as though he was trying to either get kicked out or quit.

Interesting point, though probably not entirely accurate.... Lindsey could have said no thanks to Mick's offer, or he could have quit at any time. Lindsey has always wanted to do things his way, which makes him a very creative individual but not much of a team player. He always wanted to do new things rather than go with the general flow of the band, and he never wanted to play any pre-1975 hits. It is no mystery that by 1979 or earlier, he was beginning to show a desire to quit. Just maybe (and this is another wild suggestion that shouldn't be taken seriously) he stayed on as a gesture of chivalry. Knowing that the success of the band with the white album and rumours was due largely to him, he might have stayed on for the sake of the band or for Stevie's sake.

From what I've read, it's true that both Lindsey and Stevie were hesitant about joining FM, but Lindsey much more than Stevie. Stevie's initial presence was ultimately superfluous; the band already had a lyricist and vocalist with Chris and they really only needed a guitarist. For this reason, she was the one who worked the hardest to try to fit in with the rest of the band, both musically and personally. Another nod to Bob Welch... it was Bob who helped bridge the gap between the newcomers and the rest of the band by befriending them and sticking around until they were settled. Mick's book claims that Bob and Lindsey did not get along, but Bob says in his Q&A that it wasn't true.

I agree that it was luck that allowed Stevie and Lindsey to join, but it was their (mostly Stevie's) hard work that made the whole thing actually work out.

[chiliD]

Me: But, to say that they ARE Fleetwood Mac and that any other incarnation is invalid is wrong...just wrong.

Les: Maybe this comment isn't directed to me, but since you quoted my post, let me just say -- Didn't say it. I don't regard any incarnation as invalid. But certainly, based on my own tastes, I regard certain incarnations as less interesting.

No, that wasn't aimed at anyone in particular...it was a "scattershot" to make those who DO have those types of feelings about Lindsey & Stevie sting a bit...they know who they are!

"Less interesting"? Ok, I can accept that, but for those who just downright say that a certain incarnation of the band just outright "sucks" because either Lindsey or Stevie (or both) aren't in it (and then go on to say that they've never heard any albums by those incarnations) lose validity of being legitimate "Fleetwood Mac" fans, in my mind...I would consider those folks to be Buckingham Nicks fans and nothing more. For those who've actually given other incarnations a valid listen and THEN say that they're not their cup of tea, fine...but, I'd still wonder by what standard they use to judge those other incarnations. To me, like Stevie pointed out, there's a common thread that runs all the way through Fleetwood Mac. I'll even say from Peter Green all the way to Bekka Bramlett; I'd say there is actually a WEB rather than one straight thread. Jeremy, Billy & Lindsey were all influenced heavily by 50's rock & roll & rockabilly. Obviously, the original roots of the band were the blues; which lived on through Christine, the short-lived Dave Walker, Rick Vito, & Bekka. Lindsey & Stevie, Billy & Bekka also had folk & country influences as well. Bob Welch had R&B roots (as did Dave Mason, Bekka, and, again, the well rounded Billy Burnette, too)...as well as the mystical content of his lyrics which obviously was carried on by Stevie. There are SO MANY ways that the different members throughout the years are so similar...but, the REAL "thread" from Peter Green to Bekka Bramlett?? As Carole Ann so correctly pointed out...it's the ever consistent, ever versatile Mick Fleetwood/John McVie rhythm section...they're the heartbeat, the engine, the drive, of every incarnation.

mynpeace: But the fact that the Rumours lineup is critically, popularly, and commercially the most successful can only mean that Lindsey and Stevie did indeed have the talent and flair that the band needed to go from a mildly successful band to a history-making, record-breaking superband.

I'm NOT saying that they don't have talent...of course, they do, or they wouldn't have been in Fleetwood Mac in the first place. But, "Superband"?? That would mean they could repeat the feat they accomplished with Rumours...they've been EXISTING SOLELY on the success of Rumours (and despite the perceived failure of "Tusk") ever since. "Mirage" sold because the purposely tried to recapture the Rumours "sound" after the left-turn with "Tusk" (which to me sounds more like "Rumours" than "Mirage")...by "Tango", the media had already counted them as a non-entity that was "reuniting"...so, the interest in "Fleetwood Mac's back together" (which I found odd since they'd not officially broken up nor had a personnel change in the meantime) was the soundbyte. Even AFTER a couple of personnel changes the concert set was still bogged down with Rumours tunes in lieu of the current personnel's own material...giving the impression to some (myself EXcluded) they were their own "Tribute band".

myndpeace: So the luck arguement cuts both ways -- Lindsey and Stevie owe their success to Fleetwood Mac, but at the same time, FM would probably not be around today, or at least as big as they are today, without them.

I will concede that there was (past tense, WAS) a certain "magic" of chemistry that happened with Mick, John, Chris, Lindsey & Stevie...and there was still a faint GLIMMER of it (comparatively) in '97 for "The Dance", but it wasn't anywhere NEAR what it was from 1975-1980. But, I defy anyone to tell me that there wasn't a chemistry between Mick, John, Christine & Bob Welch, either...now those four were TIGHT (as musicians, maybe not as people, but how can you really be one without the other?)...it's really a shame how the relationship between Mick, John & Chris and Bob Welch has deteriorated to the point it has.

myndpeace: But Lindsey's joining was also sheer luck; it had just so happened that Mick had heard a recording of Buckingham Nicks when he was looking for a studio to record the next album. Unfortunately for many struggling musicians, the music business is such that luck often plays a larger part in determining success that does actual talent.

EXACTLY my point! Albeit a more genteel way of putting it than my "go for the jugular". Just a "what if"...what if Mick hadn't heard "Frozen Love"?? Any guesses as to who would've replaced Bob Welch? WOULD Welch have left had Mick not already mentioned that he'd been knocked out by Buckingham & Nicks?

Les: Buzz? I'll take your word for it

Ok, little background here...in 1973, I was working in a record store when "Mystery To Me" was released, it was selling pretty darn well at the store I worked (Wherehouse, Lakewood, Ca), they appear on Midnight Special, which gave the record a bit MORE of a boost the next couple of days, tour's announced, a few gigs under their belt, then the tour's cancelled (nothing was ever mentioned THEN about the Weston/Mrs Fleetwood affair)...confusion reigns supreme when it's announced, seemingly immediately, that Fleetwood Mac will be opening for Deep Purple at the Long Beach Arena...alas comes the phony Mac in concert, local DJ's warn concert goers of the deception, blammo...reputation ruined, record stiffs.

Fast forward to summer of '74, after 8 months of news blips about the pending litigation, restraining orders, etc, FINALLY news that "Heroes Are Hard To Find" is going to be released...record company IS behind this album...our WB A&R rep brings promo posters galore...our store window was painted (at WB expense) like Christmas with "NEW FLEETWOOD MAC ALBUM HERE NEXT TUESDAY"...album is released, band does the syndicated radio show that ends up being the "Will The Real Fleetwood Mac Please Stand Up?" bootleg, they're on Don Kirshner's Rock Concert...articles in Billboard, Cashbox, RS, etc...big buzz...title cut released as single, gets FM radio airplay along with album cuts "Bermuda Triangle", "Come A Little Bit Closer" & "Angel"; but AM radio doesn't touch the single. Meantime, tour ends, Bob leaves, the typical scenario of "another album another personnel change" definitely ISN'T going to be looked upon with great feelings by their record company considering the band's recent past. But, to say (and I'm directing that at the general Ledge population, not at anyone in particular, unless you, again, feel a little tinge of guilt {poke, again} ) that the band was relatively unknown before Stevie & Lindsey joined isn't quite accurate. They had a consistent, loyal, AND growing following. And, really, let's face it, not even the Beatles & Stones at their peak put up "Rumours" sales figures...and even Fleetwood Mac themselves have not been able to repeat that feat...only a couple of movie soundtracks, a greatest hits album and a then still viable (read: more normal, less odd) Michael Jackson, has been able to top those numbers.

[Les]

But, to say (and I'm directing that at the general Ledge population, not at anyone in particular, unless you, again, feel a little tinge of guilt {poke, again} ) that the band was relatively unknown before Stevie & Lindsey joined isn't quite accurate.

Hehe...now you're putting words in my mouth. I feel no guilt whatsoever. Again, as far as I'm concerned, we're talking Fleetwood Mac as it really was in 1974 vs. your original characterization of Fleetwood Mac as "WILDLY popular" that Stevie and Lindsey just lucked into.

Trying to define the "legitimate fan" is an impossible task because everyone has their own standard of measure, consistency or inconsistency in applying that standard, and plain old personal tastes. For all of the similar threads you can identify, there are also a million things that make each member of the band unique...and often times it can be the more unique nuances that catch the eye and make someone (or an incarnation or an album) shine a little brighter than another. Knowing the historical facts of the band is a good thing to have a grip on, but the interpretation of all of the different personalities, and how it all played out, and how affecting one album compared to another is always going to vary greatly depending upon one's own circumstances, personality and allegiances.

I agree the stage show did rely too much on Rumours after 1978, and certain members (read Lindsey) weren't overjoyed with that either. Lindsey did push to not have to play older material he didn't write after '77 (while Stevie had been given more freedom to be her own person from the get go). But for that, he's apparently "childish" and "whiney," in your words. I don't know, Rick and Billy and Bekka might have benefited from some childishness and whine of their own to get some of their more current material played. The implications have been made that Lindsey did continue to push for change in the stage set after Rumours, but based on the relatively static nature of the set, one might presume that chances are also great that that pushing was again met with the same accusations about not being a team player and threats of "maybe you don't want to be in a band."

Might have contributed to Lindsey's reluctance to tour and his enjoyment of the studio, where, in my esitmation, he (and they) accomplished a lot more than living off of Rumours (despite the media's laser fixation on the Rumours-saga that continues to this day). None of what that incarnation accomplished invalidates any other incarnation, which seems to be at the heart of your concerns. Total agreement there. But it is the spirit and chemistry of this incarnation that's kept me loyal because that's just how it works for me.

[Ghosty]

"...it's the ever consistent, ever versatile Mick Fleetwood/John McVie rhythm section...they're the heartbeat, the engine, the drive, of every incarnation...."

Well ChiliD, they may be the heartbeat, and the two consistant players throughout all the line ups, but without songs to play, there would be no albums. And I think Stevie and Lindsey have given them some gems. I love Mick and John. But I listen mostly to the "Rumours" Fleetwood Mac albums. I do have a few pre-Buckingham Nicks albums. And I absolultely *love* a few of the pre-B/N songs (Sentimental Lady, Morning Rain, Oh Well, Hypnotized, Man of the World, etc.). So I do consider myself a FM fan - and legit at that. I like Bob. But I hate to say, there are a lot of people out there that would say "Bob who? Who's that?" But not as many people would say that about Stevie. I like old FM, so I know. But there are a lot who don't.

But - - - I am also a Stevie fan. I'll say it - I'M A STEVIE FAN! I'M A STEVIE FAN! I'M A STEVIE FAN! And I love it! (heh!) So sue me - lol! She has a stage personality that can't be denied. (But for me, it's her music and lyrics. I just love it!) But no one was dressing up like Bob, or Christine, or anyone else. They dressed up like Stevie. And she got showered with gifts (still does), and the media went crazy, and the fans went crazy. I don't think she "made Fleetwood Mac." As I said, I love a lot of the FM songs, pre-Stevie. But I think she did aid in their *huge* popularity. Again, this doesn't make her any better than anyone. I love her WITH Christine, Lindsey, John, and Mick (and yes, John - I adore him! And I love his bass!). And I love Stevie solo. But it's different, for sure. I much prefer her doing her FM songs live with FM. When she does Gold Dust Woman and Rhiannon solo, of course I like it. But it is kick-ass awesome when she does them with Fleetwood Mac. So to me anyways, there is obviously something with the five of them that is just amazing. I love it!

We seem to all agree - that we love FM. Some prefer certain line ups better. But that's normal. We are just lucky that Mick and John never give up. So ya, they are the heartbeat. I'm thankful for that! But a heart needs blood to keep pumping...

[CarneVaca]

I like Fleetwood Mac well enough, but I am a Lindsey fan foremost. Therefore, a Fleetwood Mac without him does not interest me much, with the exception of the Peter Green incarnation.

I read all this stuff about Bob Welch here, but come on, he's just a blip. You can't begin to compare him to Lindsey.

And Chilli, regardless of what you say, you know you're a huge Lindsey fan. Not many people get a $3,000 custom-made guitar that is so closely associated with one man unless they are big fans of that man.

[Carole Ann]

I'd think it'd be more likely, being a GUITAR PLAYER, that he would be more a fan of the instrument than the player. But I couldn't say for sure.

Maybe if chili is a fan of Baldwin pianos, might this mean he is a "huge fan" of Liberace?

[tommer]

sorry chili, but your theory doesn't make much sense to me,
i find it to be much more simple,
listen to the '75 white album, it sounds more like an organic continuation to
a- heroes are hard to find
b- buckingham-nicks
i rather look at the facts than play 'could have been's.