Tango In The Night Song Survivor!

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by 77Rumours77

Just a litle off topic here but...

How much you wanna bet we surpass Rumours Song Survivor on post? Were only on rond 3 and with over 215 Post and In the whole game of Rumours we had 455. Hummm...?

I think it's due to the fact that most people have some very strong opinions of 'Tango.'
Whether it be pro or con in regards to Stevie's songs, or whether it be pro or con in regards to Lindsey's songs and/or production.

There's a lot more to debate about when it comes to 'Tango,' than there is for 'Rumours.'
For every song on 'Tango' that someone passionately loves, there's someone else who passionately hates it. 'Rumours' doesn't tend to elicit such polar-opposite opinions.

We'll try to cool it from here on out though.
Well, at least I will.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by David

I remember hearing Hold Me on KMET & being ridiculously excited about the upcoming release of Mirage. I thought they were singing "haunt me." I bought the 45 (with Eyes of the World on the back) & played it all the time (on something called a record-player). But you're right -- there was a sense of hesitation in the air; it wasn't an all-out Fleetwood Mac juggernaut, reconquering the world. It was nothing like the hoopla that preceded the release of Tusk (when even the nightly news broadcasts reported it). Fleetwood Mac's days as the biggest mainstream band in the world were already over . . . you could tell.

In 1979, it was a pop culture Event. In 1982, it was just "the next Fleetwood Mac album."

I agree. Plus, I don't think the singles themselves were very representative of the album as a whole.

[wondergirl9847]

A separate thread for a heated Tango discussion so this can remain Survivor? LOL

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by dissention

I also never said Seven Wonders didn't chart. It did, at #19, to be exact. And it didn't last as long on the charts as the others.

One last shot... *hehehe*

It did better than your beloved "Family Man" though.
By 71 notches on the chart.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

One last shot... *hehehe*

It did better than your beloved "Family Man" though.
By 71 notches on the chart.

That's alright, it did worse than Family Man in the UK and that's all the satisfaction I need. Personally, I think they should've released Isn't It Midnight as a single instead of Family Man. But I think they saw the writing on the wall when Seven Wonders didn't perform as well as they probably thought it would.

[darklinensuit]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Oh, so you were including non-Tango songs in the discussion. No Questions Asked wasn't produced by Lindsey. And Come is produced with buried vocals deliberately.



Fair enough. You don't love it, but it doesn't mean the album isn't extremely well produced.

If the goal of production is stiflingly glossy uniformity, then yeah, it's done well.

And as for Come, what does deliberate have to do with anything? When did I debate that? You asked me if I thought instruments overpower a vocal, and I pointed to that song. For all we know No Questions Asked was going for a muffled sound as well.

- Jake

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by dissention

That's alright, it did worse than Family Man in the UK and that's all the satisfaction I need.

"Family Man" peaked at #54 in the UK and "Seven Wonders" peaked at #56... so I'm not sure how much satisfaction can be found in two chart positions.
Especially in comparison to a difference of 71 notches in the states.

Originally Posted by dissention

Personally, I think they should've released Isn't It Midnight as a single instead of Family Man. But I think they saw the writing on the wall when Seven Wonders didn't perform as well as they probably thought it would.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the writing on the wall."
"Seven Wonders" was the second single in the states, and there were three additional singles after it.
It was also the second single in the UK, and there were four singles after it (including "Isn't It Midnight").

[77Rumours77]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I think it's due to the fact that most people have some very strong opinions of 'Tango.'
Whether it be pro or con in regards to Stevie's songs, or whether it be pro or con in regards to Lindsey's songs and/or production.

There's a lot more to debate about when it comes to 'Tango,' than there is for 'Rumours.'
For every song on 'Tango' that someone passionately loves, there's someone else who passionately hates it. 'Rumours' doesn't tend to elicit such polar-opposite opinions.

We'll try to cool it from here on out though.
Well, at least I will.

No No You dont have to stop, I find this very interesting, I wish I could of been a bigger part of this but I wasnt here . Oh well. Kepit coming this is very interesting

[darklinensuit]

Originally Posted by dissention

I never refused to admit that, the topic never came up. Go read one of my initial posts about this topic in this thread. I said that Stevie's presence had an impact on the sales, but not nearly as great of an impact as Lindsey's and Chris's songs did.

I also never said Seven Wonders didn't chart. It did, at #19, to be exact. And it didn't last as long on the charts as the others.

The topic did come up. You questioned how Stevie could justify taking money for Tango, and I responded that by bringing fans to the album she had helped sell it. You won't even concede that the tour helped sell that album - the tour that Lindsey skipped out on.

- Jake

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by darklinensuit

And as for Come, what does deliberate have to do with anything? When did I debate that? You asked me if I thought instruments overpower a vocal, and I pointed to that song. For all we know No Questions Asked was going for a muffled sound as well.

No way, dude, only Lindsey does things intentionally.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

"Family Man" peaked at #54 in the UK and "Seven Wonders" peaked at #56... so I'm not sure how much satisfaction can be found in two chart positions.
Especially in comparison to a difference of 71 notches in the states.

It still did better, that's all I need.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I'm not sure what you mean by "the writing on the wall."
"Seven Wonders" was the second single in the states, and there were three additional singles after it.
It was also the second single in the UK, and there were four singles after it (including "Isn't It Midnight").

I thought it was the fourth single, my mistake. But it must say something that the second single, a Stevie song, didn't do so hot and the others released after it did significantly better (save Family Man).

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by 77Rumours77

No No You dont have to stop, I find this very interesting, I wish I could of been a bigger part of this but I wasnt here . Oh well. Kepit coming this is very interesting

Thanks, Jacob!
Feel free to jump in at any time.

Especially if you agree with me. (That was just a joke.)

[face of glass]

Only related to pages 5&6 of the thread.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Tell me, tell me, tell me... oh, Ricky, won't you come out tonight? Uptown."

Johnny, if you're speaking of the incessant repetition here then why does it not bother you in the Tango In The Night songs that eventually made it to the album?
Type down the lyrics and of course they may seem idiotic. That's what can happen to many-a-Rumours line-up song, actually. But this is once again you separating the lyrical content from the musical, otherwise you wouldn't bother in writing/copy-pasteing those down.
I don't take the vocals in "Ricky" as your usual lead vocals. I take the track as an interplay between Chris' singing and Lindsey's arrangement. So yes, I take it as an instrumental, I think the vocal there is an instrument (just like some of them are in "Family Man", for instance. IMO, there's obvious percussive effect attempted when Lindsey occasionally uses repetition). But then again, you said you didn't care much for those so I understand.
So if the vocals on the track are there because of an instrumental effect then is there any need for the piece to have more lyrical lines to it, instead of the repetition?

See, Gaius, what you don't realize is that I don't think EVERY song has to have deep lyrics or some substantive meaning. The ones that do, definitely have more meaning and appeal to me, but that's never stopped me from enjoying the others.

I apologize to you Johnny if it seems like I keep on hammering this certain point to your head. I just rarely see you speaking positively of songs with less "substantive meaning" in the lyrics, but then again maybe it's because they don't move you as much as the others.

It's just that, compared with Christine & Lindsey's other songs on 'Tango' (and even elsewhere), "Ricky" and "Down Endless Street" seem anemic.

It's your opinion and I appreciate it. I think there's about five tracks on Tango that I could replace with these and "You And I Part 1". Mind you, only two of these replaceable ones are Stevie's songs.

They didn't just abandon it at some point and move on, as they apparently did with their other non-LP b-sides.

I do not believe that in emotional involvement, or in the amount of work put in, the Tango In The Night b-sides (save for "Book Of Miracles", which still needs a vocal but should be included into this poll because of ideological reasons) are any less 'lacking' than "Silver Springs".
"You And I Part 1" has the same polish and detailed work in it as the album tracks themselves; I believe you would agree with me on this one.
"Ricky" itself, while seemingly unfinished lyrically, does not need a rewriting because the emphasis is not on the lyrical side. And it is surprisingly polished for something that's just supposed to be a toss-off, or a demo. You don't put such production polish to a sparse lyric like that if you're not going to put it on the album with that very lyric.
"Down Endless Street" is the one you have the strongest case for, but then again it's interesting to note its similarity to the likes of "Holiday Road", where those cheap tone colours are used all over the place. "Holiday Road" is another of those Lindsey songs where the polish and the cheaper sounds from the instruments are combined (in "DES" I'm obviously referring to the keyboard vamp when I'm speaking of the 'cheaper' sound). So it could be that this was another attempt to do a song similar to that ideologically, although the same emotional effect wasn't being sought after.
Note also, that TITN already includes a song that has cheap tone colours all over it; "You And I Part 2". This one differs from "Down Endless Street" only in its mix, in order to give the album the 'precious homogeneity'. Maybe "Down Endless Street" then was meant to be included on the album as is, it only would have been mixed in to give the album the cohesive sound.

They didn't just abandon it at some point and move on, as they apparently did with their other non-LP b-sides.

I don't think they would have spent so much time on a song that they didn't feel strongly about including.

One thing I would like to point out here is that no one knows for sure was "Silver Springs" totally finished when the band chose not to include it to the album. For sure, it was given a mix for the b-side version, but it was never given an album mix, to make it fit in, like they didn't do it with the TITN b-sides. Now doesn't that make it unfinished then, unfinished until the remix for the reissue? May it seem like nitpicking for some but for Fleetwood Mac that wouldn't be nitpicking.
So, who here can honestly state that the TITN b-sides weren't intended for the album? Stevie has three songs in there and "Ricky", "Down Endless Street" and "You And I Part 1" fit to those exact slots, when mixed with the rest of the album. For me any speculation on their finished state isn't anything more than speculation, and it might also be reflective of the person's opinion on these songs.

(Mick and Lindsey have both said that the band was NOT willing to compromise the sound quality, by increasing the running time)

It is very difficult for me to believe that the band couldn't have worked with a cutting engineer with the skills to put "Silver Springs" on the album. So it's very likely that it wasn't intended for inclusion back in 1977.

But the band feels that "Silver Springs" should have "always been a part of 'Rumours'," and I've never heard them say that about "Ricky" or "Down Endless Street" or "Cool Water."

Again, is there anything surprising in this? This is coming from a band who still essentially promotes Rumours MORE than their most recent release; just look at the setlist.
Certainly there has been a lot of discussion on "Silver Springs", but that's also because of the aura and pull of Rumours, in addition to the non-musical package (=the drama) that comes with the songs. Doesn't Stevie storming out of the parking lot after hearing about "Silver Springs" not making the album fit into this like a glove? It's a fascinating story for many, for sure. Similar to the voices in Dark Side Of The Moon, or the supposed backwards messages in "Stairway To Heaven".
You're never going to hear Lindsey mourning over the relegation of "Cool Water", You And I Part 1", "Down Endless Street" or "Ricky" to a b-side status. Why would he need to do it anyway, because he's rarely been asked about those albums since the obligatory promotion?

The band had a lot of years to correct their 'mistake'. When CD was made available in the '80s and Ken Caillat was spending his time preparing the Rumours for it (he pulled the first issue from stores because he hated the sound quality) the band chose not to include the song on the album as a bonus, even though such things were becoming common practice. They didn't give a damn about it until after 1997, when the track received the public recognition that it deserves.

What I'd like to know, though, is how well "Silver Springs" would do in a Survivor-type setting, if it HAD been included on 'Rumours' all along. And I have a feeling it might end up being the number one song, or the runner-up (behind "The Chain").

I actually disagree with your theory. If "Silver Springs" had been on the album since the beginning it might have been even more popular than "Dreams", and that would make it another song that suffers from the overplaying factor as well.

The reason why I'm still going on in here is because I identify with those three TITN b-sides on an emotional level. "You And I Part 1" to me, is equal to "Silver Springs" in emotional impact and that's a pretty high compliment in my book.
Would I complain to this extent if I did not like the tracks? Probably not, but I still would complain to an extent. Ideologically "Silver Springs" isn't in any better position than the TITN b-sides, and that's something that one should take into account. I don't care if they were all voted off in the first rounds, but they have as much right to be here as "Silver Springs" had in the Rumours poll. But let Jacob have his poll as it is, I've been enjoying it in spite of my nitpicking and I can always enjoy those songs in my land of Esoterica while blocking my ears from critique.

[face of glass]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Folks are bound and determined to vote off all of Stevie's songs first. Not just "When I See You Again" and "Welcome To The Room... Sara," but votes against "Seven Wonders," too???

Sad state of affairs.

While I realize that you would wish for Stevie songs to stay in longer, in order to keep up the precious balance in between the Rumours line-up writers, I think it's generally reflective of the esoteric (yes, I'm going to use that word to the end of the world, thanks Lindsey) quality in the two songs involved. You know which ones I'm talking about. That's what tends to happen, the material that is generally more esoteric and acquired taste is usually dropped first. That's what happened to "Family Man" too, and obviously a few other Lindsey songs are in similar 'danger'.
Of course, you and I could always start grumbling and say that people should learn to tolerate these more, listen to these more so that they would 'get them' or be 'emotionally moved by them' or whatever. But really, can you ask for such a thing from fans who have obviously spent years with these songs and once in a while tried to listen to them, and still have failed to like them? A song that takes numerous listens in order to be appreciated is, in my mind, not preferable to those that grab the interest in an instant.
So yes, Lindsey and Stevie have material on Tango In The Night (and elsewhere in their careers) that is more esoteric and less universal than the rest of their music. It certainly doesn't mean that the tracks are 'bad' (which I do not wish to use for these, because I know it can raise some emotions in everyone) but their appeal is less than of other songs. And when the songs tend to raise such diverse reactions on a board that's supposed to be full of fans, you'd think that would give some proof to my theory.

Of course it would be interesting to see what would happen if people stopped protecting the songs they want to keep in polls but then it wouldn't be as much perverse fun, now would it?

Seems like the old cat's out of the bag again. We just still love these old arguments, don't we?

Um, don't mind me. Poll & blabber on.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by darklinensuit

If the goal of production is stiflingly glossy uniformity, then yeah, it's done well.

For the time, it sounded great. Still sounds great to my ear, and I have a very discriminating ear. The other one is a little more tolerant, though.

And as for Come, what does deliberate have to do with anything? When did I debate that?

Dude, you're not going to put me in a position to defend Come.

You asked me if I thought instruments overpower a vocal, and I pointed to that song. For all we know No Questions Asked was going for a muffled sound as well.

- Jake

I think I may have lost the thread on this one, but as I recall: You said Seven Wonders is better than Family Man and mentioned production issues. I disagreed, and said that the Spanish guitar work alone on Family Man blows Seven Wonders away. You brought up keyboards almost overpowering vocals as a production issue on Seven Wonders. I wondered if you were implying that other songs in Tango had the same problem, adding that I think Tango has great, uniform production. Then you brought up two non-Tango songs, which has brought us to a murky twist in the road. No Questions Asked, by the way, is a song I haven't heard in probably 10 years. It's one of those I forgot existed and actually had to stop and think when and how it was released. GH, right? So, I couldn't tell you if the vocals are buried or too loud, or whatever.

Don't care. :shrugh: The point is, Tango is greatness!