What's so wrong with writing in the third person?

[Johnny Stew]

Perhaps this is better-suited to the Chit Chat Forum, but since there has been a lot of discussion and debating in regards to "Thrown Down" being written in the third-person, I thought I'd post this here.

I have to admit that it kind of surprises me that it seems to matter so much to quite a few people, that the song was written this way, and that these people feel that fact lends a certain blandness to it.

I venture to say that the vast majority of novelists write in the third-person, and any number of songwriters too.
Granted, writing in the first-person is most effective in regards to songwriting, because it makes it all the more personal... but if one is trying to tell a story, and doesn't necessarily want the listener/reader to know it's about your own experiences, then third-person point of view is ideal.

I borrowed this comment from a site on writing styles....

Third-person viewpoint is the most popular method used today. As with first-person viewpoint, the writer becomes the viewpoint character and sees, hears, touches, wants, and remembers only what that character sees, hears, touches, wants and remembers. The only information readers are given is the information the viewpoint character has (except for things that can be demonstrated in dialogue or body language or innuendo).

In "Thrown Down," Stevie is telling the story of two former lovers, who are at a turning point in their relationship.
Past hurts have been dealt with, and they can once again remember why it is that they ever loved each other in the first place.

Given the soap opera-like history of Stevie & Lindsey, it's easy to assume that the song is written about them, which could be exactly why Stevie chose not to write it in the first-person.

Perhaps she wanted to leave the listener with some level of ambiguity in regards to whom exactly it is that she's singing about.

She's telling a story here... perhaps a little parable of sorts.
So, in my opinion, the third-person viewpoint is perfect in this situation. The song can now be applied to any number of people and their relationships, and doesn't *have* to be about Stevie Nicks and Lindsey Buckingham.

Any thoughts?



Johnny Stew

[ricohv]

Doesn't Stevie write in 3rd person a lot? All of her He saids/she saids seem like 3rd person to me!

[sulamith]

Very good points, Johnny.

I think Stevie does choose to write in third person alot because it allows her to deflect some of those heavy feelings away from herself. I believe I have even read some articles where she implies that that is exactly why she writes it that way.

While writing her prose is very therapuetic for her, helping her work through her own issues, she wants others to be able to read their own meanings into her words.

She also has stated numerous times that it is important to her that each person be able to interpret her songs in way that speaks to the individual. She doesn't necessarily want the listener to know exactly what she is talking about. (for me, that's the fun part!)

It is no small feat to take feelings and situations as unique as Stevie's and be able to turn it into something that others can take and apply to their own situation.

She's been touching numerous people a long time with her writing style, and it's definitely not for everyone.

If Stevie isn't your cup of tea, then just go listen to whoever you do like, BUT you'll probably just find more third person!
lol!
-Sharon

[CarneVaca]

Well, Johnny, since you asked. For starters, that excerpt you've got there doesn't sound like it's in reference to songwriting. If it is, I would say whoever wrote it is wrong. The most compelling songs are written in the "I" and "you" voice.

Don't mix apples with oranges. Writing isn't just writing. A brochure is quite different from a record review, and a newsbreaking story is not a business plan. I edit reams of copy week in, week out. I've had my hands on some compelling copy in my day, and unfortunately too often I've had to salvage writing that really wasn't worth salvaging. In some cases, the writers simply didn't understand the format. For instance, I got articles that are written as chapters of a book. And that simply won't do for my readers.

But I digress. How to explain this? Third-person songwriting can be compelling, but usually the first- or second-person songs are more interesting. They are more personal and the listener tends to relate to it way more. That is the difference between Go Your Own Way and Thrown Down. For instance, if I say in a song:

"He said he hated her guts."

Well, that's a pretty clear statement, but all it does is report on something. However, if I say:

"I hate your guts."

Now you have a more powerful statement because it's more direct and conveys emotion more effectively. Those words pack a hell of a wallop.

I hope you can see the distinction. It's about the power of the word.

Having said that, I will admit that some third-person songs are quite engaging. Here's an example:

Just a girl who can't say no
And her sweetheart on parole
Parents named her Jupiter
To bless her with a lucky soul
He's a boy who never cried
When they locked him up inside
And she nicknamed him her teardrop
For the tattoo by his eye

That's from "Jupiter and Teardrop" by Grant Lee Buffalo. Right off the bat, you have an unbelievably powerful statement. You know exactly what the writer means. Then cleverly the writer tells a huge story in a few lines, wrapping up the verse with the wonderful teardrop tattoo image. I get goosebumps when I hear this.

Now here's a bit of "Thrown Down:"

Thrown down
Like a barricade
Maybe now he could prove to her
(So overwhelming, baby; there's nothing left to say)
That he could be good for her
(Don't say you're sorry, baby; think you should walk away)
They should be together.

OK, "thrown down like a barricade" is not bad, though not brilliant either. But then she goes into "maybe now he could prove to her." I would say that "maybe," "now" and "could" are superfluous words. Stevie should have pushed herself and come up with a more elegant way to convey the message. "So overwhelming..." Hey, if it's overwhelming, don't tell me, show me. How about something like, "She tried to tell him, but the words fled," or something like that. Now you're planting the image in the mind of the listener. You can actually see this person struggling to come up with words that just aren't there. "That he could be good for her." Again, I'm sure there are more elegant and engaging ways to convey that thought.

Frankly, I think Stevie has gotten kind of lazy about her writing. I would say to her: Write less and rewrite more. It's a pain, but the end result will be superior.

I hope that helps.

[CarneVaca]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sulamith
Very good points, Johnny.

I think Stevie does choose to write in third person alot because it allows her to deflect some of those heavy feelings away from herself. I believe I have even read some articles where she implies that that is exactly why she writes it that way.

BINGO! There you have it. If I can tell the actor is just acting, the actor loses me. If the actor becomes the character, I'm in.

She also has stated numerous times that it is important to her that each person be able to interpret her songs in way that speaks to the individual. She doesn't necessarily want the listener to know exactly what she is talking about. (for me, that's the fun part!)

That may be fun to some, but frankly, that is a cop-out. It's OK to write some lyrics that are intentionally cryptic, but if you're doing it all the time, the issue may well be that you simply aren't skillful enough to do it better.

She's been touching numerous people a long time with her writing style, and it's definitely not for everyone.

Excellent point. There's always a group of people that is going to like something. This is a good place to point out that Stevie has written some tremendous songs in her career. No doubt.

If Stevie isn't your cup of tea, then just go listen to whoever you do like,

Forget tea. Give me bourbon!

[Johnny Stew]

CarneVaca, you make some excellent points.
Like I said in my first post, I agree with the opinion that, when it comes to songwriting, first-person perspective IS preferable, because it makes the song more personal, and often more engaging.

However, in the case of "Thrown Down," I think the third-person narrative is far more suited to the song than if Stevie were singing, "You fell for me again, I watched it happen," or "You held my hand, I listened to what you had to say."
I think this song comes off a tad self-centered when sung in the first-person.

I mean, really, how can you sing about someone wanting you back *without* sounding full of yourself?

First-person works in a song such as "Enchanted," where she sings, "you thought you saw something in my eyes... it's a shame that you wanted me, you didn't try," because she's talking about someone being into her, but not taking a chance on pursuing her.

But to sing about someone throwing themselves at your feet, and asking for you to give them another chance, would be the epitome of narcissism.

By the way, you asked me to not compare apples to oranges (writing novels vs. writing songs), and yet you edited these song lyrics in a very journalistic fashion.
In journalism it's a necessity to be succinct, but in song-writing, without some of those "superfluous" words, you'd be changing the melody of the lyric left and right.

Really, try to sing "she tried to tell him, but the words fled," to the melody of "Thrown Down."
It simply doesn't work.
On paper it may be effective, but it's terribly dry if you try to sing it.

While "Thrown Down" may not be a brilliant song that's lyrically on par with "Silver Springs," or "Gypsy," it's still quite engaging, and evocative in its own right.

With any music, your level of enjoyment has a lot to do with what you bring to the song.
Every song touches some people, while leaving others out in the cold.
And when a writer has a style as distinctive as Stevie's, the line between the former and the latter is all the more pronounced.

But I definitely appreciate your opinion. I was curious as to what exactly it is about the perspective in this song that you don't care for, so I'm glad I asked.



Johnny Stew

[sulamith]

Cop out! Arrrgghh!

Aw, c'mon Carne......don't be such a curmudgeon......

You know you put on your chiffon bathrobe and dance around to "Dreams" everynight!

hee hee!

Meanwhile I'll just put on a little Seven Wonders or something.

[seteca]

IMO, a song written in the 1st/2nd person has an element of (even if its been written totally in the past tense) suspense to it, as though there is "unfinished business". In a love song particularly, its use usually conveys an image of confrontation between the two lovers, or ex-lovers. Think of the lyrics to "Big Love": "You said that you love me, and that you always will", or "The Chain": "I can still hear you saying you would never break the chain." This form of writing comes across (at least to me) as a lot more powerful than the 3rd person because it's as though you're witnessing a verbal fight or a confession, live.
Whereas, a song in the 3rd person is like a story book, so you know there's going to be an "ending", regardless of whether its happy or sad. This means that there is no "confrontation factor" involved i.e. the writer, if talking about himself/herself in the 3rd person, has accepted that "it is over", and is now telling his/her story. This method can still make a very good song, but I can't think of a single song written in the 3rd person that has moved me like one written in the 1st/2nd. My favourite songs are those where the writer is using the music to express feelings that he/she couldn't do by simply using words (on their own), so if I hear a song in which the singer is telling a story, it makes me wonder what drove the story-teller to write it in the first place (if anything.) Just makes it sound totally impersonal.
Now in the case of Stevie, we all know for a fact that her songs are about as personal and deep as you get, regardless of what person they are written in. However, so MANY of her songs would have moved and touched me more if she had written them in the 1st/2nd person. The fact that "Storms" is written in the 1st person, and is one of the most powerful and touching songs I have ever heard in my life, confirms this for me.



p.s. Equally as powerful (but in a very different way) as 1st person, is 1st person PLURAL.....a la so many Pink Floyd songs. It's a very rare form of writing, but pull it off properly (as they seemed to effortlessly do with every song that they used it in) and it sounds absolutely amazing.

[Steve]

I think Stevie does choose to write in third person alot because it allows her to deflect some of those heavy feelings away from herself.

Well, duy....now tell us something we don't already know.

[Steve]

I meant duh.

[CarneVaca]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Johnny Stew
First-person works in a song such as "Enchanted," where she sings, "you thought you saw something in my eyes... it's a shame that you wanted me, you didn't try,"

Now, there's a truly wonderful lyric. I remember singing that many times when I was, oh, about 14. I'm going to have to play that song now.

But to sing about someone throwing themselves at your feet, and asking for you to give them another chance, would be the epitome of narcissism.

True, yet to write something that you think anyone else is going to read takes a certain amount of narcissism, even if you're a bit insecure about it. And to write something that you are going to perform in front of an audience takes even more narcissism. I have yet to meet a writer that didn't have that bit of narcissism in him/her. Except for myself of course.

Really, try to sing "she tried to tell him, but the words fled," to the melody of "Thrown Down." It simply doesn't work. On paper it may be effective, but it's terribly dry if you try to sing it.

You're absolutely right, and I figured someone would make that point. I don't mean that literally the words I suggested would be the way to go; I was merely trying to convey the idea of show, don't tell.

In fairness, Stevie has written some wonderful stuff, especially when compared to a lot of the drivel that passes for lyrics these days. I do feel, and this happens to a lot of writers, that she has fallen back on what's comfortable. She is not a particularly good self-editor. We know that from anecdotal evidence about the length of certain songs she's written, such as Sara and Silver Springs, which had to be pared down. If she asked for my advice [how's that for narcissism], as I said before, I would tell her: Write less, rewrite more.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by sulamith
You know you put on your chiffon bathrobe and dance around to "Dreams" everynight!

Great! That's the last time I tell you anything in confidence.

[DownOnRodeo]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Great! That's the last time I tell you anything in confidence.

Aw come on Carne, we all know that's not true!

... It's Gypsy you dance to!

[DownOnRodeo]

Pronoun

They say that you said that I saw you say you know
But it’s so overwhelming all these pronouns in a row
You could sit outside the store and stay
I could dedicate this to you for him

Pronouns
Like a barricade
Maybe now you could see through them
To find if there’s any meaning
To find a real first person

(About just how difficult it had been to comprehend me
Pronouns…)

[Brad]

Originally posted by seteca
p.s. Equally as powerful (but in a very different way) as 1st person, is 1st person PLURAL.....a la so many Pink Floyd songs. It's a very rare form of writing, but pull it off properly (as they seemed to effortlessly do with every song that they used it in) and it sounds absolutely amazing.

Seteca,

Just out of curiosity, could you name a few of the Floyd songs you're talking about? I'm a huge fan, but I'm unfamiliar with what "first person plural" is, so I'm not sure which ones to think of!

Thanks,

Brad