The Death Of Fleetwood Mac...Time

[elle]

Originally Posted by MacShadowsBall

As far as the "Battle of the Songs" goes, Christine is doing very well in the Pre-Rumours era and won the Behind the Mask battle. So she is providing good competition. Actually she might end up with more winners that Stevie! Poor Lindsey though - he'll have at least 1 song maybe 2, if he wins the Say You Will battle.

Yeah, however my understanding is that the statistics you provided of Christine having the most huge chart hits in the US was for the Rumours-era songs, not overall Mac Christine's songs (which I think you are talking about when listing how Christine may end up with more winners than Stevie in the battle of the songs). So far, all the Rumours-era albums (except for the Chain, which has Stevie as a co-writer of course) have Stevie's song as a winner - which does not really reflect the chart statistics you provided. And it's even more skewed when you look how big these Stevie songs have won over the runner-up.

Please don't get me wrong, I love your polls, they are one of the reasons I joined the Ledge, I'm just trying to provide some constructive discussion about over-interpreting the data (I deal a lot with statisticians in my real life, what can I say - I hear a lot of bias-calling!).

As far as potential Lindsey wins, sorry I don't see that happening. Which of his songs would you predict might win SYW poll? Yes, Peacekeeper was the only radio hit from SYW, but I'm not sure it will even win Lindsey's songs there (he has too many good songs on SYW...). I would sooner expect maybe Thrown Down winning, or even Everybody Finds Out... but we'll see maybe I'm completely off!

[Street_Dreamer]

Originally Posted by tilthefirefades

If the Behind The Mask and Time lineups were so progressive, unique, or even great, why didn't they last? Because the fans wanted Stevie, Lindsey, and Christine, hence The Dance's success.

Which is why Fleetwood Mac is in the quagmire it's in. Same old same old.

Originally Posted by tilthefirefades

No matter what anyone says, without Stevie, there is no Fleetwood Mac.

Wrong. Fleetwood Mac starts with Mick Fleetwood and ends with John McVie. Without either, Fleetwood Mac does not exist.

Originally Posted by tilthefirefades

Also, I would say Oh Well is much more tired than Rumours.

Not by a long shot. It took the band almost 20+ years to cave in and perform this classic. Meanwhile all incarnations of the band between continued to play songs from Rumours. The same tired old songs.

Matt

[tilthefirefades]

Originally Posted by elle

Uhmm - can it be b/c of Dixie Chicks version? If you check youtube comments it seems that many people were saying "oh, I didn't know this was FM song!"

That was my point

Originally Posted by Street_Dreamer

Wrong. Fleetwood Mac starts with Mick Fleetwood and ends with John McVie. Without either, Fleetwood Mac does not exist.
Matt

Wrong? I want you to go out and poll people on which Fleetwood Mac member they recognize. It won't be either of them.

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by tilthefirefades

If the Behind The Mask and Time lineups were so progressive, unique, or even great, why didn't they last? Because the fans wanted Stevie, Lindsey, and Christine, hence The Dance's success. No matter what anyone says, without Stevie, there is no Fleetwood Mac. In the real world, outside of The Ledge, and outside of hardcore fans, the only song that people will always know is Landslide. Then you have some people that know Dreams, Gold Dust Woman, and Go Your Own Way. Then you have even less people that know Don't Stop and maybe Gypsy or Hold Me. I know this because at my job, Gypsy or Don't Stop will play and I'm all "omg!!!" and they give me blank stares. I say "Fleetwood Mac?", and their response is "Oh..". I am in no way saying that Stevie is the most important, most talented, or most anything other than that she has become Fleetwood Mac.

Also, I would say Oh Well is much more tired than Rumours.

I don't think anyone would disagree that Stevie has the most fanatical fans, and therefore she has the biggest fan presence. Yes, those fans just want Stevie, which is why Fleetwood Mac are what they are today - their own tribute band.

Frankly nothing is more tired than Rumours. That album has been worked to death, regardless of its undeniable quality.

I can't speak for the US, but here in the UK, Stevie really isn't a well-known figure these days. Very few people under 30 would have a clue who she is. Fleetwood Mac were well-known as a band, without any individual standing out. Probably because Christine had the most hits, as many as Lindsey, with Stevie having very few. I'd take a stab and say that either "Albatross", "Everywhere" or "Little Lies" are the best-known Mac songs here, then "Don't Stop" and "Go Your Own Way". I'd be surprised if many people knew "Landslide" at all. The end of "The Chain" is very well-known thanks to TV, but I doubt many people know it's Fleetwood Mac.

[elle]

Originally Posted by tilthefirefades

That was my point .

Ah - I was jumping to the conclusions obviously, after just glancing over "... without Stevie, there is no Fleetwood Mac. ... the only song that people will always know is Landslide. ... I am in no way saying that Stevie is the most ... anything other than that she has become Fleetwood Mac. "

[elle]

Originally Posted by bretonbanquet

I can't speak for the US, but here in the UK, Stevie really isn't a well-known figure these days. ... Fleetwood Mac were well-known as a band, without any individual standing out. Probably because Christine had the most hits, as many as Lindsey, with Stevie having very few. I'd take a stab and say that either "Albatross", "Everywhere" or "Little Lies" are the best-known Mac songs here, then "Don't Stop" and "Go Your Own Way". I'd be surprised if many people knew "Landslide" at all. The end of "The Chain" is very well-known thanks to TV, but I doubt many people know it's Fleetwood Mac.

I have to absolutely agree with that, being originally from the European side of the pond. And, I'd probably extend your statement beyond just <30 crowd. Most people there know/knew FM band, not the individual members. I'd suspect if Stevie would ever tour solo in Europe, that tour wouldn't fill any more seats that if Lindsey toured solo - but I may be overstreching...
Still can't get over how almost nobody in the US knows Albatross - from what I could remember it was as huge as something like "Smoke on the water" all around Europe at its time, and it's still played on every summer terrace...

[tilthefirefades]

Originally Posted by bretonbanquet

I don't think anyone would disagree that Stevie has the most fanatical fans, and therefore she has the biggest fan presence. Yes, those fans just want Stevie, which is why Fleetwood Mac are what they are today - their own tribute band.

Frankly nothing is more tired than Rumours. That album has been worked to death, regardless of its undeniable quality.

I can't speak for the US, but here in the UK, Stevie really isn't a well-known figure these days. Very few people under 30 would have a clue who she is. Fleetwood Mac were well-known as a band, without any individual standing out. Probably because Christine had the most hits, as many as Lindsey, with Stevie having very few. I'd take a stab and say that either "Albatross", "Everywhere" or "Little Lies" are the best-known Mac songs here, then "Don't Stop" and "Go Your Own Way". I'd be surprised if many people knew "Landslide" at all. The end of "The Chain" is very well-known thanks to TV, but I doubt many people know it's Fleetwood Mac.

I'll admit that I no nothing about Fleetwood Mac's impact and influence in other countries, so I apologize for my post's ignorance in that respect. I still can't imagine Fleetwood Mac being half as successful in the past decade without Stevie. At this point, unfortunately, she is what Fleetwood Mac is remembered for.

[Street_Dreamer]

Originally Posted by tilthefirefades

Wrong? I want you to go out and poll people on which Fleetwood Mac member they recognize. It won't be either of them.

It doesn't matter how many people recognize them in comparison to Stevie or any other member for that matter. It's THEIR band. They are the ones who've kept it going more than four decades. Stevie and every other member of the band after 1969 not named Mick Fleetwood or John McVie are beneficiaries of their tenacity (or in Mick's case hunger for money.)

Matt

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by elle

I have to absolutely agree with that, being originally from the European side of the pond. And, I'd probably extend your statement beyond just <30 crowd. Most people there know/knew FM band, not the individual members. I'd suspect if Stevie would ever tour solo in Europe, that tour wouldn't fill any more seats that if Lindsey toured solo - but I may be overstreching...
Still can't get over how almost nobody in the US knows Albatross - from what I could remember it was as huge as something like "Smoke on the water" all around Europe at its time, and it's still played on every summer terrace...

I think you might be right. Neither Stevie nor Lindsey would ever sell out big venues over here, and if anything, Lindsey might fare better. I agree about "Albatross" - it went Top 5 here twice in about three years, and it was the same in Germany, Scandinavia etc, and you still hear it all the time.

Originally Posted by tilthefirefades

I'll admit that I no nothing about Fleetwood Mac's impact and influence in other countries, so I apologize for my post's ignorance in that respect. I still can't imagine Fleetwood Mac being half as successful in the past decade without Stevie. At this point, unfortunately, she is what Fleetwood Mac is remembered for.

That's okay And yes, she is what Fleetwood Mac is known for. In the States.

[vivfox]

Originally Posted by bretonbanquet

"Albatross" - it went Top 5 here twice in about three years, and it was the same in Germany, Scandinavia etc, and you still hear it all the time.

You are very lucky to hear that as a radio staple. It's been a regularly listened to song every 2 weeks when I get a massage( I program the music).
If the radio stations played that in America it would be so much nicer than hearing the usual staple songs we get. It is a beautiful song!

[iamnotafraid]

Originally Posted by MacShadowsBall

I appreciate your opinion iamnotafraid, but what exactly do you feel was the death of Fleetwood Mac - the Behind the Mask and Time albums themselves, or the new members. What in your opinion makes the albums so bad or individual new members so bad? Should the band had called it quits when Peter or even Lindsey left?

If Fleetwood Mac would have ended with either Behind The Mask or
Time how do you think they would be remembered? Or even worse,
conitinued on with the line-ups of either of those two albums?

If I joined Mick and John would it still be Fleetwood Mac?

The only positive things to come from those two albums were the songs:
Skies The Limit - Hard Feelings - Winds of Change

And to answer your question, "should they have called it quits after Peter
left?". Well the only reason I'm glad they didn't is obvious, it lead to Lindsey
and Stevie joining.

"Quit after Lindsey left?" YES.

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by iamnotafraid

If Fleetwood Mac would have ended with either Behind The Mask or
Time how do you think they would be remembered? Or even worse,
conitinued on with the line-ups of either of those two albums?

In terms of musical output? They'd be remembered in the same way. In terms of touring and thrashing the same songs to death for years and years - yeah, probably they have a higher profile.

Originally Posted by iamnotafraid

If I joined Mick and John would it still be Fleetwood Mac?

Yes.

Originally Posted by iamnotafraid

The only positive things to come from those two albums were the songs:
Skies The Limit - Hard Feelings - Winds of Change

And to answer your question, "should they have called it quits after Peter
left?". Well the only reason I'm glad they didn't is obvious, it lead to Lindsey
and Stevie joining.

"Quit after Lindsey left?" YES.

Just your opinion

[MacShadowsBall]

Originally Posted by iamnotafraid

If Fleetwood Mac would have ended with either Behind The Mask or
Time how do you think they would be remembered? Or even worse,
conitinued on with the line-ups of either of those two albums?

Originally Posted by iamnotafraid

If I joined Mick and John would it still be Fleetwood Mac?

The only positive things to come from those two albums were the songs:
Skies The Limit - Hard Feelings - Winds of Change

And to answer your question, "should they have called it quits after Peter
left?". Well the only reason I'm glad they didn't is obvious, it lead to Lindsey
and Stevie joining.

"Quit after Lindsey left?" YES.

If Fleetwood Mac would've ended after Behind the Mask or Time, Fleetwood Mac would be remembered for their Rumours era albums, Oh Wait!!! That's what their remembered for now!!

Personally I glad FM never called it quits, look at what great music the world would have missed out on if they quit when Peter and others along the way left the band. FM could have easily ended when Welch quit. I'm sure Mick, John, Christine were fed up with the revolving door of guitarists, and could have just as easily "pick up their pieces and go home".

As far as the Dance reunion two years after Time goes ,while people wanted the Fab 5 back together, people didn't want Stevie and Lindsey to quit to begin with. The "failure" of Time, does not mean fans wanted Stevie and Lindsey back. It just means that fans didn't like the Time album. One thing doesn't always mean or relate to some bigger thing.

[iamnotafraid]

Originally Posted by MacShadowsBall

The "failure" of Time, does not mean fans wanted Stevie and Lindsey back. It just means that fans didn't like the Time album. One thing doesn't always mean or relate to some bigger thing.

The fans who don't keep up with the line-up changes like some of us rabid
fans, would have bought that album and wondered what in the world happened
to the great Fleetwood Mac. "No Lindsey, no Stevie...you've got to be kidding",
I can just hear them saying.

Since we've all been talking about Time and Behind The Mask, I've been suffering
through listening to these albums again. And while looking through BTM booklet
I found an old review from an audio magazine. I'll post it later.

[sjpdg]

With some different song choices and better promotion, "BTM" probably would have done better and been more widely accepted by the public and perhaps even some of the Buckingham/Nicks-ites out there.

Had that line up lasted, then theoretically "Time" would have been a much better album with or without Stevie due to her solo career and back and forth issues with Mick. Rick and Billy could have further stretched their creative muscles (which are considerable both as a duo and as solo artists), and if Stevie had not stuck around for "Time", then (again theoretically) perhaps that would have been the change over to Bekka joining the band or some other female personnel change.

But this is all theoretical/hypothesis/"what if" stuff.