Then Play On revisited

[becca]

I just got this on CD today but we had the album around when I was young. I think it sounded better on vinyl, had a fuller sound and bass, just can't get full bass on CDs usually, but the vinyl is pretty worn now and the jacket has that kind of musty old cardboard smell. Oh Well.

On CD I like My Dream and Like Crying by Kirwan best. Maybe it is because on CD he sounds better hitting the higher notes, maybe it needs that crackle-less antispetic laser beam to make sense, I really don't remember his stuff from the LP. Slippery smooth while Peter Green was more rangey and punchy.

Well am glad I got this on CD, am curious how others rate the tracks now. I think the Oh Wells were better sounding on the winyl record, plus there were two of them and here they are mixed together.

[chiliD]

I'm intrigued by your comment about two "Oh Well"s...

Every version of "Then Play On" (that has included it, that is) I've seen has ALWAYS had both parts of "Oh Well" blended together.

"My Dream" was on the original US version (no "Oh Well") of TPO (as was "When You Say") Both songs were dropped in favor of "Oh Well" on subsequent pressings.

In the UK, the original pressing of TPO included Danny's "Without You" & "One Sunny Day" which were the ones dropped for "Oh Well"...since those were included in the US on the "English Rose" album, "My Dream" & "When You Say" were used here instead.

The only thing that put a damper on "Then Play On", for me, was when they released the "Vaudeville Years" sets...getting the full 16+ minute version of "Underway" (which they only used the first 2-1/2 or so minutes of); the entire 18+ minute "Madge" jam, that they cut & pasted into "Searching for..." & "Fighting for...". And, also including "When You Say" on the TPO CD...not real fond of that one, at ALL. That said, I still listen to TPO more than any other Mac album...still holds up after all these years.

One of the things that surprised me about "Then Play On" in subsequent years...1) a lot of the solos I attributed to Peter Green were actually Danny Kirwan. For example, all the solos on "Oh Well" are Danny; Peter just plays the opening riff and all of Part 2 (the classical part); and the aggressive solos on the two "Madges" are Danny; Peter plays the subdued riffs...and, B) even though it's considered "Oh Well, Part TWO", it was actually recorded BEFORE "Part ONE".

[macfan 57]

I only have Then Play On on CD, so I can't compare it to the vinyl. I like this album alot, especially Coming Your Way, Closing My Eyes, Like Crying & Before the Beginning. I was a little bit surprised that I liked it since I don't really care for the first 2 Fleetwood Mac albums. It doesn't appear that Jeremy Spencer is on this album. If he's not on the album, does anyone know why he is pictured in the CD booklet? Also, in the liner notes it mentions that Christine was involved in the recording sessions for this album. I can't hear her anywhere. Does anyone know if she played on any of these songs?

[chiliD]

At the same time that Fleetwood Mac was recording "Then Play On", they were also recording what was SUPPOSED to be the "companion" album to TPO, an album of all of Jeremy's rock & roll parodies, etc. Instead of being released simultaneously to TPO, it was delayed a few months, making it pretty much Jeremy's first solo album, even though it's all Fleetwood Mac (plus Christine Perfect).

Christine sings harmonies on "When You Say". (the "la-la-la"'s)

[becca]

It was Oh Well Parts one and two, on the album they are listed individually. Yeah, didn't know that was Danny so much, interesting, some of it has that Peter Green bite to it I think.

I tried Kiln House again and I guess I can kind of get into Spencer's stuff a bit, if just in a rare mood. This Is The Rock anyway, the rest I am still estranged from i think.

[goweropolis]

chiliD:

One of the things that surprised me about "Then Play On" in subsequent years...1) a lot of the solos I attributed to Peter Green were actually Danny Kirwan. For example, all the solos on "Oh Well" are Danny; Peter just plays the opening riff and all of Part 2 (the classical part); and the aggressive solos on the two "Madges" are Danny; Peter plays the subdued riffs...

Are you sure about this? Is there a source for this comment? I highly doubt that Kirwan would be playing lead guitar on Green's compositions. I know they were collaborative, but Kirwan had plenty of room for his own songs and soloing on TPO. The liner notes to The Vaudeville Years say that for "Underway", Kirwan played the choppy rhythm guitar, while Green played the lead line. I would wager that on Green's songs, they followed this same basic template. I'm not trying to be contradictory, I'm just surprised.

macfan 57:

It doesn't appear that Jeremy Spencer is on this album.

Actually Jeremy plays piano on "Oh Well part 2", and I think somewhere else too, but I don't have the liner notes to The Vaudeville Years in front of me, so I don't know for sure. The FM EP with Spencer's parodies can be found on The Vaudeville Years. A good comp with the aforementioned full versions of "Underway" & "The Madge Sessions", and a killer studio take of "Like It This Way".

If there's ever an album that needed remastering it's TPO. It's one of my fav FM albums. Very unique and different from any of the other albums. It could benefit from some bonus tracks too, of which I'm sure Reprise has (like "The Green Manalishi" b/w "World In Harmony" single for instance. I don't know what Reprise is waiting for.

Anyways, first post too. Good to be here. Cheers,

Andy

[Johnny Stew]

Hello, Andy... welcome to The Ledge.

I'm kind of ashamed, because it was only the other day that I actually remembered that 'The Vaudeville Years' even existed.
I didn't have the cash for it when it was first released, and it eventually slipped from my memory.
From what you've mentioned, it sounds like a must-have.

I also don't have the 2-disc 'Show-biz Blues' yet... I need to set aside some money for these.


Johnny Stew

[chiliD]

Actually Jeremy plays piano on "Oh Well part 2",

I've read conflicting reports on this...some I've read said that Peter Green plays ALL the instruments (excluding full orchestra, that is) on Oh Well, Part 2. That he taught himself to play both recorder & cello so he could accomplish that feat.

Are you sure about this? Is there a source for this comment?

Absolutely, with not a doubt in my mind...the source? My own eyes & ears.

1) watching live (not the studio lipsyncs) versions on video...I was shocked when Danny played the "Oh Well" solos...same guitar tone as on the album.

then,
2) once I got a grasp of Danny's aggressive guitar tone, I could more easily distinguish HIS sound to Peter's...therefore being able to distinguish Danny from Peter on the rest of the album...and on other live recordings as well. Once I knew that the tone of the guitar on the "Oh Well" solos was Danny, the rest came easily.

It could benefit from some bonus tracks too

I'd say, "Bonus DISC"...with the companion Jeremy Spencer album as it was supposed to be.

John "wetcamelfood" Fitzgerald has done some calling to WB/Reprise and they apparently divert any questions regarding updating/remastering of back catalogue to Rhino...John has contacted Rhino, got the runaround from them, too.

I'll re-post (for the umteenth time) my "remaster plan" for the Fleetwood Mac catalogue and see if anyone has any additions that I may have left out...I'll post it as a separate thread in a day or two.

[wetcamelfood]

Yup, ChiliD is right, I got the runaround at Rhino. In a nutshell they DO say that they will be the first one to remaster the FM back catalog on CD ONCE FM is no longer with WB/Reprise. They say they can't touch the WB stuff until such time and we DON'T want WB to do it themselves as they have remastered such artists back catalog as Van Halen, Dire Straits etc. with NO bonus tracks.

I found Ken Caillat's Penguin Q & A most helpful in learning about how things work and compromises that can be made to apice the labels and get what we want at the same time. In this learning process, I've learned that as much as we would ALL like there to be CD's released including "entirely previously unreleased material", he did point out (rightly so) that we would be more likely to get unreleased stuff out on CD by way of bonus tracks on already released CD titles (as opossed to a whole CD devoted to unreleased stuff for fear of it "not selling" (in the way the labels think about it) in a "remastered" form and as labels can't "weasel out of" the fact that they know the back catalog sells to the public as that's why they've "allowed" that to be out there (it may not sell to the figures they would like but enough so that it is acceptable to them to be on the market).

In addition, as the Mac CD's have yet to be remastered, we need to "beat them to it" as if they remastering them with no bonus tracks, if we go to them THEN and say "please remaster the FM CD's" they will pawn us off by saying something to us like "we've already done it and we're not going to go and do it again if we've just done it". Us saying we want bonus tracks on there gives them "no excuse" as these are discs they would have on the market anyways, we would just be filling up the blank space on them and as most of the older albums are about half the length of time a CD can hold, we could possibly get out much material on them.

Someone in another thread posed the question as to why this GH thing is coming out at the end of the year to be followed shortly by the new album in the spring as it does seem strange that Reprise would want to "cut in to their own sales" of the GH thing IF both discs are on Reprise and I have heard some rumors floating around that FM may be with/looking for another label now so, with this in mind, it would seem logical that the GH could be on Reprise to finish off their contract there and then the new album would be with another label (as naturally another label would LOVE to cut into sales of a competitor with FM stuff).

IF this IS the case then I would propose that once the new FM album hits the streets in Spring 2003 (or whenever it is) IF it's on a different label to any label associated with the WB/Reprise family, that we inundate Rhino with our UNITED feelings on the subject. It IS VERY IMPORTANT that we do all say the same things in our letters to them and at the same time. Otherwise, we will not get what we want if anything at all. They may not put bonus tracks on them at all if they even bother to remaster them but at least if we ask for it UNANIMOUSLY then at least we can say that we tried and not see the years go by thinking "if only we tried (this)". However, we muct wait to see what label the new album is on, for DEFINATE. We must wait until the new album is litterally released BEFORE we do this. We can't go by people saying "I heard from a close source that they changed lables" . Thant's not good enough, If we've waited this long for the new album surely we can wait a few months before sending in our letters. Besides, if they do agree, it will take them a while to get them together so we would have to wait anyways and we can use these few months to come to the most unanimous decision we can on this.

I will reiterate this in ChiliD's new post when he lists what we have discussed in great detail as to how we think the FM CD's SHOULD be remastered as with which bonus tracks THAT WE KNOW OF THAT EXSIST. Of course we could do our best persuasions to Rhino nearer the time that ANY other material in the vaults yet to be released from the relevant albums should go on the appropriate disc regardless of what titles bootleggers have given the taped that have "leaked out" as that will only confuse the issue in hand at this juncture. I have made the point of "if it's in the vaults, we want it" most clear to Mr. David McLees, Vice President of A & R at Rhino which is who would be dealing with this. You can all think it over and join us on ChiliD's thread in a few days or whenever it is up in this forum.

John

[goweropolis]

Johnny Stew:

Hello, Andy... welcome to The Ledge.

Thanks Johnny. It's great to be here. The Vaudeville Years & Show-Biz Blues are indeed good collections. Occasionally the sound quality is spotty, and the song selection less than inspiring, but there are many tracks that are great. They probably could have trimmed the four discs down to two spectacular ones, but it's nice to have everything as is anyways. The liner notes by Jet Celmins are good too.

ChiliD: thanks for the clarification. I'll have to listen a little closer myself sometime and see if I hear the same thing. Also, I'd love to see that "master plan" for TPO Deluxe Edition!

Andy

[becca]

It's funny though, rarities and B sides have done well with other groups, like the Doors (released seperate from their box set). FM seems to have a long run of non album singles and B sides and things performed live differently from album, or which never made it out of the studio. I think all the rarities would sell for even more casual followers like myself but I expect maybe the Buckingham Nicks fans would not want the earlier material like Green Manalishi and Dragonfly which would be my main reason for buying something like that. I mean if they can't sell FM/Peter Green rarities what can they sell?

[wetcamelfood]

i know what you mean and "I" would get a "rarities only" as would MANY others on the ledge but the LABEL doesn't see it this way and as you say BN only fans are only going to want outtakes from that era so I think this is why they would prefer to put "Rumours" outtakes on the proposed "Rumours" remastered CD (and so on) and for fans of the Peter Green era, they would put "Then Play on" outtakes on the proposed "Then play on" remastered CD.

We may be able to approach them if AFTER they remaster all of the CD's with bonus tracks there are still some rarities left, THEN they might be willing to do a "rarities only" CD but UNTIL then this is the way Rhino would do it (if at all) going by my discussions with Mr. McLees.

Maybe because the Doors stuff is under the Elektra division of WEA that they may feel differently about being more willing to do such a compilation of this sort "upfront" but the WB/Reprise division we are dealing with at Rhino unfortunately does not see it that way and the "putting the rarities on the end of the albums" is our way of "compromising", there way (as we see it) would be for them to fill up the rest of those discs with rarities.

This would seem a fair "trade" to us as, OK, we don't want to have to rebuy the albums but there is a lot of empty space on the discs we have currently and we could fill those up with all the B-sides and unreleased stuff they've got and at least we know Rhino does a good job at remastering albums so discs that need a SERIOUIS overhaul ("Mirage", etc.) could be MUCH improved upon which is a plus for us but we make it out to them like it's something we are "giving in to".

I hope this made some sense.

John

[chiliD]

I posted the "remaster plan" over on the "RUMOURS" board...(just for maximum exposure)

[LesPaul7]

Originally Posted by chiliD

I'm intrigued by your comment about two "Oh Well"s...
One of the things that surprised me about "Then Play On" in subsequent years...1) a lot of the solos I attributed to Peter Green were actually Danny Kirwan. For example, all the solos on "Oh Well" are Danny; Peter just plays the opening riff and all of Part 2 (the classical part); and the aggressive solos on the two "Madges" are Danny; Peter plays the subdued riffs...and, B) even though it's considered "Oh Well, Part TWO", it was actually recorded BEFORE "Part ONE".

You're right Kirwan does the solos on Oh Well while Green plays the rhythm underneath. You are definitely wrong about the Madge jams though. Green plays the flowing, endless solos and Kirwan plays the staccato lines. All you have to do is listen to the Boston Rattlesnake Shake medley (in stereo) to know this, even if you can't tell by their phrasing. Or better yet watch the video of them jamming it on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0SglPDyhZU

Yeah, I know this is an OLD thread, but I am always seeing people attribute Green's solos to Kirwan.

[becca]

Thanks for helping straighten that out, I've spent a long time with the roles transposed on these cuts it seems! Also I think we had a slightly different Then Play On in Canada than released elsewhere, I've found this to be the case with Yardbirds albums, and Canadian Epic and Capitol LPs in general, but also a lot of my Dad's records were radio station promos. Sometimes the cover graphics are very different too.