Do we really want a new Fleetwood Mac album?

[Matt Lucas]

Hello all---

Originally Posted by michelej1

Stevie has been open about her displeasure with the SYW recording process for years. And I believe that she said that she couldn't understand why her demos sounded better than the finished product and that frustrated her.

Ah. Stevie has demo-itis. It’s a common affliction affecting songwriters and is diagnosed when the person becomes so attached to the sounds on a demo that he or she can’t ever really appreciate a proper studio recording of the same song because, “It just doesn’t sound as good as the demo.”

Sometimes a demo really captures that new energy that only comes when you’ve created a new song from essentially nothing, and it’s hard to reproduce that feeling when you’re in the studio doing 34 takes of a lead vocal. I’ve experienced it myself. So, I get that.

I’d like to hear some examples of Stevie demos that are better than the final, official studio recordings. The only one I’ve really heard is “Thrown Down,” and I have to say that the studio version sounds fantastic. The demos aren’t bad, but the studio version is just way better. I will be the first to admit that Stevie’s songs are very uneven on SAY YOU WILL. The good ones are VERY good…the bad ones are horrible. [In fact, the same could be said for Lindsey’s songs on that record.] Even though I’m a bigger fan of Lindsey, I have to admit that “Thrown Down” and “Say You Will” are probably my two favorite songs on that album [followed closely by “Steal Your Heart Away” and “Bleed to Love Her”]. They are just great song…very well-written and well-produced.

As for the change in the band’s sound and Lindsey’s production over the years…

I’m no expert on Stevie’s voice, so I don’t feel qualified to comment on that one.

Personally, I think part of the change in style over the years, particularly since RUMOURS, is the fact that Lindsey discovered the Rick Turner guitar and stopped using “real” guitars as much. I remember reading interviews with him around the time of OUT OF THE CRADLE, and he talked about how, in the studio, he still used other guitars like a Telecaster [I think one of those instrumental introductions was actually recorded on a Telecaster]. To my ears, that’s part of the reason that album sounded so good. Since then, I don’t think I’ve seen a single photo of him with anything other than the Turner guitar or one other acoustic guitar, and I haven’t read a single interview in which he talked about using a Fender or a Gibson.

Has he used a Gibson since the RUMOURS days? Those solos just burn, you know? I realize he loves the Turner guitar, presumably because it lets him switch back and forth between electric and acoustic sounds easily. But I don’t think the tone is great for studio recordings. That’s just me.

I think Lanois or Brion could make a fantastic-sounding FM record. The main point is that either guy has worked in a variety of settings and styles. Lanois is known for getting fantastic drum and bass sounds, and his vocal productions always have a really unusually clear, “in your face” quality to them, like the singer is sitting right there in the room with you as you listen.

Brion, on the other hand, gets great sounds, too. But less processed. For the record, he is a very gifted keyboardist, too.

Either of those guys---or Froom, should he get the call---is experienced enough to know what to do once the whole band is there. They will figure out quickly that Mick, John, and Christine are a three-headed rhythm monster.

matt

[BombaySapphire3]

Originally Posted by Matt Lucas

Hello all---





I will be the first to admit that Stevie’s songs are very uneven on SAY YOU WILL. The good ones are VERY good…the bad ones are horrible. [In fact, the same could be said for Lindsey’s songs on that record.] Even though I’m a bigger fan of Lindsey, I have to admit that “Thrown Down” and “Say You Will” are probably my two favorite songs on that album [followed closely by “Steal Your Heart Away” and “Bleed to Love Her”]. They are just great song…very well-written and well-produced.

Which is precisely where Christine comes in..If they had tossed those bad songs to make room for a few of her best from ITMT, SYW could have been their best overall album since Tusk.

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by Matt Lucas

Personally, I think part of the change in style over the years, particularly since RUMOURS, is the fact that Lindsey discovered the Rick Turner guitar and stopped using “real” guitars as much. I remember reading interviews with him around the time of OUT OF THE CRADLE, and he talked about how, in the studio, he still used other guitars like a Telecaster [I think one of those instrumental introductions was actually recorded on a Telecaster]. To my ears, that’s part of the reason that album sounded so good. Since then, I don’t think I’ve seen a single photo of him with anything other than the Turner guitar or one other acoustic guitar, and I haven’t read a single interview in which he talked about using a Fender or a Gibson.

Has he used a Gibson since the RUMOURS days? Those solos just burn, you know? I realize he loves the Turner guitar, presumably because it lets him switch back and forth between electric and acoustic sounds easily. But I don’t think the tone is great for studio recordings. That’s just me.

I've read in various places that he DOESN'T use the Turner Model 1 all that much in the studio (He used a National Reso-Lectric quite a bit on the SYW album). For the acoustic based tunes he seems to use the Turner Renaissance guitars more in the studio, but also Martins & Taylors.

On the last couple of tours he's used a regular ol' Fender Strat on "Tusk". But, his Turner Model 1 covers so much ground on stage, that he prefers that. However, he still changes Model 1s almost every song (from what I've seen from videos posted online, so what would be the difference between that & switching between Les Pauls, Strats & Teles? Maybe it's some sort of verbal agreement between he & Rick Turner (similar to that you rarely see photos or videos of Clapton playing any electric except a Fender Strat, even though he still plays Gibsons every so often...like his Byrdland or an ES-335. Haven't seen him play a Les Paul for a LONNNNG time)

Lindsey seems to stretch out more with acoustic guitars on stage.. the Renaissance RS-6 or RN-6, a Carruthers ACN6, a Gibson Chet Atkins CE, a Martin D-whatever or a Taylor.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by Matt Lucas

Ah. Stevie has demo-itis. It’s a common affliction affecting songwriters and is diagnosed when the person becomes so attached to the sounds on a demo that he or she can’t ever really appreciate a proper studio recording of the same song because, “It just doesn’t sound as good as the demo.”

Sometimes a demo really captures that new energy that only comes when you’ve created a new song from essentially nothing, and it’s hard to reproduce that feeling when you’re in the studio doing 34 takes of a lead vocal. I’ve experienced it myself. So, I get that.

I think it has to do more with the fact Lindsey developed a quirkier production style after the massive success of “Rumours” because he wanted to get as far away from that because he felt that was the only way the band could maintain any artistic credibility.

Stevie has always tried to be connected with the current hit-makers, be it working with Tom Petty and Don Henley in 1981, Bruce Hornsby and Kenny G in 1989, Sheryl Crow and Natalie Maines in 2001, or slobbering over Katy Perry and John Mayer in 2014.

So, they were already on two very different paths, but Stevie had been building up Lindsey’s importance to arranging her songs since 1997 or so that she was probably very offended at what she felt was sub-par/NOT mainstream, but Lindsey felt was artistic. She was expecting him to be the guy who arranged “Dreams,” “Angel,” and “Gypsy,” while Lindsey had since become the guy who made albums like “Go Insane” (and I think it’s easy to hear some of that in what he did on Stevie’s songs on SYW).

As Dave Mason once said “there’s only you and me, and we just disagree.”

Personally, I think part of the change in style over the years, particularly since RUMOURS, is the fact that Lindsey discovered the Rick Turner guitar and stopped using “real” guitars as much.

I don't think it had anything to do with the guitars. It started on the first day of the recordings for "Tusk" when they spent hours trying to get the right sound, and once they got it, Lindsey had them turn the knobs 180 degrees. That was they same day he shaved and cut all his hair off. The Turner wasn't around until the "Tusk" tour.

To my ears, that’s part of the reason that album sounded so good. Since then, I don’t think I’ve seen a single photo of him with anything other than the Turner guitar or one other acoustic guitar, and I haven’t read a single interview in which he talked about using a Fender or a Gibson.

He used a Bass VI on "The Dance" tour for "Farmer's Daughter." I've also seen him recently with another Fender.

Has he used a Gibson since the RUMOURS days?

They show him playing a cherry sunburst Les Paul in the "Tusk" documentary.

I think Lanois or Brion could make a fantastic-sounding FM record. The main point is that either guy has worked in a variety of settings and styles. Lanois is known for getting fantastic drum and bass sounds, and his vocal productions always have a really unusually clear, “in your face” quality to them, like the singer is sitting right there in the room with you as you listen.

Brion, on the other hand, gets great sounds, too. But less processed. For the record, he is a very gifted keyboardist, too.

Either of those guys---or Froom, should he get the call---is experienced enough to know what to do once the whole band is there. They will figure out quickly that Mick, John, and Christine are a three-headed rhythm monster.

Fleetwood Mac needs a producer who has produced a three-headed rhythm monster before, and those two guys, to my ears, would be a bit behind the curve with this particular incarnation of Fleetwood Mac. (Greg Ladanyi, anyone?)

Actually, one name that hasn't been mentioned is Jeff Lynne.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by chiliD

However, he still changes Model 1s almost every song (from what I've seen from videos posted online, so what would be the difference between that & switching between Les Pauls, Strats & Teles?

I think all of the guitars are tuned differently. I could be wrong.

[elle]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

I think all of the guitars are tuned differently. I could be wrong.

yes, they are.

he uses M1 much more on stage with the Mac than solo. i was actually surprised what a workhorse M1 is for him with Mac, being used to his solo shows. and he plays mostly chords with the mac, solo he is much more versatile and during OMS tour in 2012 he used M1 for maybe 3 or 4 songs max - ISA, Come, GYOW, i think that was it.

and he said that he actually rarely uses M1 in the studio, and that he often uses completely different guitars for recording a song than for playing it on stage.

about 2 years ago, he did 3 or 4 different songs on his old strat, at that SoCal music school thingy he did, and they sounded interesting / different from when he normally does them with "designated" guitars.

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

Fleetwood Mac needs a producer who has produced a three-headed rhythm monster before, and those two guys, to my ears, would be a bit behind the curve with this particular incarnation of Fleetwood Mac. (Greg Ladanyi, anyone?)

Well, Greg's gone to the great mixing board in the sky, so he's out.

George Harrison's big beef with Jeff Lynne was that he makes EVERYTHING sound like ELO. : lol: So, if we want to hear what the Fleetwood McLight Orchestra would sound like, sure, let's give him a call. Lindsey would have to get his "Guitar Army" reconvened, as well. Yo, Janet, Liza, Ross...(well, hmmm, that wouldn't leave any room for Carlos Rios, so, I'd be all for that!)

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by chiliD

Well, Greg's gone to the great mixing board in the sky, so he's out.

I was trying to say look what happened when the producer was behind the curve with understanding the Fleetwood Mac sound.

George Harrison's big beef with Jeff Lynne was that he makes EVERYTHING sound like ELO. : lol: So, if we want to hear what the Fleetwood McLight Orchestra would sound like, sure, let's give him a call. Lindsey would have to get his "Guitar Army" reconvened, as well. Yo, Janet, Liza, Ross...(well, hmmm, that wouldn't leave any room for Carlos Rios, so, I'd be all for that!)

Yeah, but then I hear what he did with the Wilburys and the Beatles, and at least that's in the ball park of the Fleetwood Mac sound.

[KarmaContestant]

Originally Posted by Matt Lucas

I’d like to hear some examples of Stevie demos that are better than the final, official studio recordings.

For me, Smile At You is a prime example - any of the demos are better than the dreck which was recorded for SYW.

Another would be Love Is Like A River. Fans who like that song generally agree that the RAL era demos are better than what was recorded for Street Angel; at least they have in the past.

Another from Street Angel where the demo is better is Destiny. Of course, the earlier versions are Wild Heart era recordings, when her vocals were at their peak.

Running Through The Garden is another one, that for me, is better in demo/outtake form. Again, the previous versions are RAL-era - they have more energy, more passion, and far more excitement instrumentally.

Lastly, another SYW track - The Tower (I refuse to call it Goodbye Baby). The SYW version is missing all of the grief and despair of her demo vocal.

The one thing these all have in common is cocaine. It is my opinion that cocaine made Stevie a better singer. The demos of these other songs were recorded prior to her 1986 rehabilitation.

I have to disagree with you on Thrown Down - the actual demo is bare-bones. The version you're (likely?) thinking of is a full studio recording produced by John Shanks for TISL. I like both versions.

Lastly, I want to add that just because I like the demos better (and think that they are, in fact, actually better) doesn't mean that Glynn Johns or Lindsey Buckingham are at fault. Only Stevie is at fault. She was there for the recording of the newer versions, she had final say over her product, she recorded the new vocals - any blame falls squarely on her if she did not like the released versions. For me, the real issue at hand is Stevie's inability to recognize when a track is already great - demo or otherwise. I would prefer she just release them the way they already are instead of trying to make them sound current.

Just my two cents.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Matt Lucas

I’d like to hear some examples of Stevie demos that are better than the final, official studio recordings.

Well, the fans sure have their opinions on which demos sound better. I don't know what Stevie thinks. I seem to recall when she said that, she didn't specify which song she was talking about and we were conjecturing here, trying to match what she said to clips from Destiny Rules and come to a conclusion as to whether she meant Thrown Down or Smile At You or some other song that she was disappointed in.

Michele

[BlueDenimLamp]

Originally Posted by chiliD

Well, Greg's gone to the great mixing board in the sky, so he's out.

George Harrison's big beef with Jeff Lynne was that he makes EVERYTHING sound like ELO. : lol: So, if we want to hear what the Fleetwood McLight Orchestra would sound like, sure, let's give him a call.

Jeff Lynne would fit in quite well with FM...
Lindsey...


Jeff...

Stevie & Lindsey...

Stevie & Jeff...


You could prob swap Bucky for Jeff and no one would be the wiser...

[BombaySapphire3]

I don't see all that much difference between the production styles of Jeff and Dave Stewart "Everybody Loves You" has a strong ELO vibe IMO.

[mitzo]

I wonder if Stevie's take on the production of her songs has more to do with her relationship with the producer, and the commercial success of the songs, than the actual merit of said production. Her solo career is littered with bad production.

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by mitzo

I wonder if Stevie's take on the production of her songs has more to do with her relationship with the producer, and the commercial success of the songs, than the actual merit of said production. Her solo career is littered with bad production.

Littered is putting it mildly.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by mitzo

I wonder if Stevie's take on the production of her songs has more to do with her relationship with the producer, and the commercial success of the songs, than the actual merit of said production. Her solo career is littered with bad production.

She mentioned in 1989, while promoting 'The Other Side of the Mirror,' that she's often more fond of her original demos than the finished product. She said that her friends have told her the same thing. So her expressing that sentiment regarding the 'Say You Will' tracks is really nothing new, and -- since she was including her solo career in those 1989 comments -- I would say it wasn't solely a reflection on her relationship with Lindsey.

In regards to her relationships with the various producers: it seems that Glyn Johns is the only one she truly didn't get along with. Whatever happened between her and Rupert Hine, happened after the recording of 'Mirror.' And despite that falling out, she's still spoken affectionately of it and has referred to it on more than one occasion as her "magic album." This, also, despite sales being considerably less than previous albums.