so, lindsey or stevie? who owns this album more?

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I follow the music industry quite a bit, and in the average situation, a producer receives a writing credit if he completely overhauls the original music, thus creating a new melody.
But not because he decided that a guitar lick would sound good during the bridge, or that the third verse should replace the first, and the chorus should be shortened.

Not so, Johnny. A producer does NOT have to overhaul the song completely to get writing credit. From Charlie Craig, who has written more than 300 songs recorded by people like Reba McIntyre and Alan Jackson:

Whenever an artist, or producer changes a few words, or/and especially a few lines, normally the writer has been contacted and given their approval. Not many artists or producers will ask for writers credits for somethig like that. Normally, when a writer gives up a portion of the writing it is something that has taken place prior to the artist going into the studio. Sometimes the artist or producer gets with the writer and co-writes the changes, or makes the changes without the writer being present, but has agreed to those changes, and giving up a writer's percentage of the song. And it does help if you can co-write with an artist or producer.

Read between the lines there too. He says normally the writer is contacted, implying that doesn't always happen. In this case we are talking about a somewhat more complex scenario, involving a writer, a recording artist and a producer. But there are cases in which the producer and artist/songwriter share writing credit.

In more straight-forward cases, producers often get songwriting credit for minor tweaks. For instance, Glen Ballard got co-writing credit for every single song on Alanis Morisette's Jagged Little Pill. Do you think he sat with her from the songs' inception through the creation of the chord structure and melody for every song? I doubt it. Most likely she brought him songs at different stages of completion and he grabbed some songwriting credit for himself. This scenario is quite common actually, so I'm a little surprised you're not familiar with it.

If she brings in something simple and basic, then Lindsey gets most (if not all) of the credit for making it wonderful.
If she brings in something that's already arranged and fleshed-out, then she's holding Lindsey back.

Always puzzling to me.

I have to call unfair on this, Johnny. You always seem to want to generalize. You seem to have trouble distinguishing from folks who plain hate Stevie and others, like me, who like some of her work but are not crazy about a good deal of it. It's almost like you can't accept that it's OK to only like some of her work. I merely suggested that bringing a near-finished song to Lindsey to produce might prevent him from being as creative with it as he otherwise would. Maybe, maybe not. Besides, I have no problem with Stevie giving him piano demos that he arranges into beautiful songs. It worked beautifully in the old days. Interestingly, those are the songs that I find a lot more appealing than her more current stuff. I don't see why that is a "damned if you do/damned if you don't" situation.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I follow the music industry quite a bit

Considering the state of the biz these days, poor you.



PS: Catch Divas Live last night? My gal Cyndi brought the house down.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I'm still not sure why people assume Stevie must have threatened Lindsey with a truncated tour, to somehow strong-arm him into releasing 'Say You Will' as a single album.

I don't even think Lindsey implied that at all. For all we know, he was concerned that she wouldn't do more than 40 dates because of her health. There's no way to know what he meant exactly, or to extrapolate from that comment that she threatened to cut the tour short. She might have, but we just don't know.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

interestingly, Stevie is not closed to the idea of LB's brilliant guitar in lieu of what she has done in a demo. A good example of this is the opening riff of SYW's Thrown Down as opposed to the sensational WOS version. LB's version is far more subtle. So, I think I come back again to they are a creative team when in FM, esp. now, and giving one all of the credit is incorrect IMO.

I thought that it was said in quite a few interviews last year before the album came out that Lindsey was pretty much completely responsible for TD. I remember him saying that it was one of his faves because he got to do what he wanted with it and had free reign. He said there was something like three versions he had worked on.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Also, there is the situation of the outside producer wanting a writing or musical credit so they get paid more $$$$$ than just for producing. This is done all of the time for big name producers with minor acts. Stevie clearly would be beyond that and LB is part of her band, etc. Yet, Stevie clearly has shared credit before. I believe she shared with Rupert Hines and she has given FM things before as mentioned earlier

Yes, some producers (like Simon Cowell) insist on an additional credit, so that they make more money over and above what they'd earn as a producer.

Many in the industry have balked at that arrangement, and have complained that it's an unfair practice (for both the artists and the struggling songwriters).
And I've read that Celine Dion even once dropped a couple songs from one of her albums at the last minute, because a producer was making that demand.

[Les]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I'm still not sure why people assume Stevie must have threatened Lindsey with a truncated tour, to somehow strong-arm him into releasing 'Say You Will' as a single album.

I think it's because of a few things:

1. There was some sort of final argument over the album that we aren't privvy to that was apparently more unpleasant than any other argument they had.

2. Mick says that during that final argument over the album, there was something that happened that threatened to make their touring schedule far shorter than originally planned.

3. Lindsey specifically sites his concern that Stevie, not Mick or John, might pull out of the tour after 40 dates as a reason to not put out the double album.

If one begins speculating upon those three things, it's not a big leap to consider what Gaius mentioned as a possibility. Obviously, we can't know for sure because we don't get to see the final argument and Lindsey's and Mick's comments seem sort of pointedly vague and ambiguous, and there is no comment from Stevie about the topic at all, which some may find a little odd. So it's just up for guesses and speculation, like so much else.

I haven't watched it again recently, but I don't remember any mention that Warner Bros. was doing anything to keep the album's cost down. It seemed it was Lindsey who was offering to absorb costs to keep the album's price down, not them. I also don't really recall seeing Stevie ever say that she was happy with the double idea. But that may just be my memory.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by dissention

I thought that it was said in quite a few interviews last year before the album came out that Lindsey was pretty much completely responsible for TD. I remember him saying that it was one of his faves because he got to do what he wanted with it and had free reign. He said there was something like three versions he had worked on.

I don't remember Lindsey commenting on "Thrown Down," but I know that Stevie was the one who said that it was recorded three different times and three different ways, and that "the third time was the charm."

[strandinthewind]

I think they are still touring to pay for the advance WB gave, pay for the recording of the record, and to make money for themselves. Clearly, SYW did not sell near what WB paid in expectance of and/or WB has lost money on it. I mean no one in their right minds spends at least a million and most likely over two million (LB recorded for well over five years ) to make a record that sells only 800,000 copies. Then, the alleged $750,000 (?) per concert guarantee for the principles. So, I think that was the 40 date deal. In other words, WB wants to make their money and can only do so via the touring and Stevie may have not wanted to tour for over 40 dates - but she has wound up doing so. But, I have no proof of that. It is just a feeling.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I don't remember Lindsey commenting on "Thrown Down," but I know that Stevie was the one who said that it was recorded three different times and three different ways, and that "the third time was the charm."

and that third time was LB's version. In fact, she specifically commented on it as did LB - he said something like he immediately thought of that simple opening riff. I love it when they work together

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by Les

I think it's because of a few things:

1. There was some sort of final argument over the album that we aren't privvy to that was apparently more unpleasant than any other argument they had.

2. Mick says that during that final argument over the album, there was something that happened that threatened to make their touring schedule far shorter than originally planned.

3. Lindsey specifically sites his concern that Stevie, not Mick or John, might pull out of the tour after 40 dates as a reason to not put out the double album.

... and there is no comment from Stevie about the topic at all, which some may find a little odd.

Very good points, Leslie. This is my feeling also. In my last post on this, I was merely pointing out that it's hard to extrapolate from Lindsey's almost-throwaway comment that there was a threat. Yet, if there wasn't, it's a very odd comment indeed. I tend to lean toward believing there was. But I can't prove it.

[Les]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I think they are still touring to pay for the advance WB gave, pay for the recording of the record, and to make money for themselves. Clearly, SYW did not sell near what WB paid in expectance of and/or WB has lost money on it. I mean no one in their right minds spends at least a million and most likely over two million....

You've got me scratching my head. Where are you getting these numbers from?

From what I've been reading by those who work in the industry and post on these boards -- SYW exceeded WB's expectations. (I have no personal knowledge of this, just going by posts of those with some professional background in this.)

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Les

. . .There was some sort of final argument over the album that we aren't privvy to that was apparently more unpleasant than any other argument they had . . . .

For what it is worth, I remember someone said it was about the "running order," which could mean the sequencing, which is horrible IMO, and/or the songs that made it on as opposed to the four that got "left off."

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Les

You've got me scratching my head. Where are you getting these numbers from?

From what I've been reading by those who work in the industry and post on these boards -- SYW exceeded WB's expectations. (I have no personal knowledge of this, just going by posts of those with some professional background in this.)

Well, I think it is easy to assume the rent on that house on Bel Air was at least $25,000 a month, which brings us to $600,000 right there. Then, Mick specifically talked about selling in the millions, not the hundreds of thousands. Finally, common sense suggests that 800,000 or so sold is a let down of mammoth proportions after the over 4 million sold for The Dance and the similar success of TITN. So, I think it is safe to assume they thought SYW would sell at least a million and it did not. So, how is Warner's going to make their money from the favorable advance back? There is only one way and that is touring, which has been successful as far as I can see.

[teedee]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Not so, Johnny. A producer does NOT have to overhaul the song completely to get writing credit. From Charlie Craig, who has written more than 300 songs recorded by people like Reba McIntyre and Alan Jackson:



Read between the lines there too. He says normally the writer is contacted, implying that doesn't always happen. In this case we are talking about a somewhat more complex scenario, involving a writer, a recording artist and a producer. But there are cases in which the producer and artist/songwriter share writing credit.

In more straight-forward cases, producers often get songwriting credit for minor tweaks. For instance, Glen Ballard got co-writing credit for every single song on Alanis Morisette's Jagged Little Pill. Do you think he sat with her from the songs' inception through the creation of the chord structure and melody for every song? I doubt it. Most likely she brought him songs at different stages of completion and he grabbed some songwriting credit for himself. This scenario is quite common actually, so I'm a little surprised you're not familiar with it.



I have to call unfair on this, Johnny. You always seem to want to generalize. You seem to have trouble distinguishing from folks who plain hate Stevie and others, like me, who like some of her work but are not crazy about a good deal of it. It's almost like you can't accept that it's OK to only like some of her work. I merely suggested that bringing a near-finished song to Lindsey to produce might prevent him from being as creative with it as he otherwise would. Maybe, maybe not. Besides, I have no problem with Stevie giving him piano demos that he arranges into beautiful songs. It worked beautifully in the old days. Interestingly, those are the songs that I find a lot more appealing than her more current stuff. I don't see why that is a "damned if you do/damned if you don't" situation.

you have no problem with stevie bringing in a piano demo, but if she brings in a near finished demo, Houston there is a problem. I think we can accept that ppl like some of her songs,maybe even none of her songs , and some ppl like some of his songs... it just seems that you( Carne) cant accept when ever someone states something about lindsey , its one thing to state your opinion, but its another to always try to justify the matter in a one way situation. These are two individuals that compliment one another whether you want to accept that or not. i myself think lindsey is a great producer of her work, but that doesnt make me think less of her solo work one bit. you can go on and on about how the guitar riffs influenced you to appreciate a stevie song, but its kind of TEEDious as you would say, lol..to always have to remark that thats the only reason you like a song.. All i know if i was a fan of FM and I had such a problem with listening to half the songs on an album by the other writer in a group,as do you do, i cant help but feel what a waste of time it must be for you to sit thru a 2.5 hour concert and only hear an hour or so of what you want to hear or to have to skip half the songs on a cd....

[Les]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Well, I think it is easy to assume the rent on that house on Bel Air was at least $25,000 a month, which brings us to $600,000 right there.

Yes, Bel Air is expensive, but pulling these numbers out of the air isn't really a terribly concrete way to figure their expenses.

Then, Mick specifically talked about selling in the millions, not the hundreds of thousands.

Perhaps Mick is disappointed then.

Finally, common sense suggests that 800,000 or so sold is a let down of mammoth proportions after the over 4 million sold for The Dance and the similar success of TITN.

I personally would tend to doubt highly that WB was under the impression that SYW would sell anything like the Dance. The Dance was selling the hits by the reunited-for-the-first-time-in-10-years fireflies, with a built-in PR machine called VH1 that played the concert constantly. MTV even played it. SYW was 5 years later, less one member, selling new material, with nothing like the welcome on VH1 or anywhere that the Dance received. I believe WB had in fact already dropped the band, which is why they were then negotiating a new contract for this album.