new Dashut blog - Truth & Consequences (My Times with FM)

[secret love]

Originally Posted by secret love

The most offensive thing you can say to someone is to tell them how to think. My opinion is my business, not yours!

When people post things on the Ledge that I disagree with, I try to refrain from saying their opinion is wrong. Instead I like to tell them my different view and explain why I feel that way.

I completely agree with Elle about "thought police". There is a proliferation of them here on the Ledge. The thought police seem unaware how rude it is to tell someone to change their way of thinking. That is the job of psychiatrists only! It is not the job of Ledgies!

Originally Posted by nicole21290

Yes, that's completely what CAD meant...

MAYBE it could've been worded better but I do agree that it's a little strange that there is much debating as to his identity and whether his nose is quite the same or whatever. It is VERY cool to have a new photo from this time period so yeah, it was odd to come here and Facebook and just see people going 'oh, well, really doesn't look like him...'. That's all. No, there's no need to tell people how to react but surprise at how people HAVE reacted is something I do understand, and I felt it myself.

I mean, it's no big deal, but I think the comment CAD made doesn't seem to exactly warrant all this blathering about 'thought police' and so on. IMO.

My post about thought police (see above) was not directed towards you Nicole. It was a general statement that I felt needed to be said about the attitude of some (not all) Ledgies that if you do not agree with them, then your opinion is invalid.

There are people who have replied to my thread "There will never be another Fleetwood Mac album" and "This is the best performance of Stand Back" flaming me for using a shorthand. I'm supposedly the world's worst because I left out the words "In my opinion" when I wrote my thread titles. How I express myself in writing is my business and the Ledge does not exist for members to criticise other members' poor written expression.

It is not just directed at me. I see other Ledgies heavily criticised by people regularly. Why? Person B disagrees with Person A, so Person A says you're wrong I'm right please change your opinion. This has to stop.

It stifles freedom of expression and it stifles debate.

It is a problem endemic to The Ledge.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by nicole21290

MAYBE it could've been worded better but I do agree that it's a little strange that there is much debating as to his identity and whether his nose is quite the same or whatever. It is VERY cool to have a new photo from this time period so yeah, it was odd to come here and Facebook and just see people going 'oh, well, really doesn't look like him...'.

I'll get excited over early pictures that actually look like him.

Michele

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by nicole21290

Yes, that's completely what CAD meant...

MAYBE it could've been worded better but I do agree that it's a little strange that there is much debating as to his identity and whether his nose is quite the same or whatever. It is VERY cool to have a new photo from this time period so yeah, it was odd to come here and Facebook and just see people going 'oh, well, really doesn't look like him...'. That's all. No, there's no need to tell people how to react but surprise at how people HAVE reacted is something I do understand, and I felt it myself.

I mean, it's no big deal, but I think the comment CAD made doesn't seem to exactly warrant all this blathering about 'thought police' and so on. IMO.

I didn't see the FB stuff.. but obviously I was being completely sarcastic(trying to make Elle laugh) I think it really does look like him, to be honest.

[elle]

Originally Posted by jbrownsjr

I don't think it looks like Lindsey = You are saying that they aren't in love!! Why can't you just believe they are still secretly together! You hate Stevie!!

yup, definitely!

Originally Posted by secret love

It stifles freedom of expression and it stifles debate.

It is a problem endemic to The Ledge.

i agree with it stiffing debate and freedom of expression, but it is not really endemic to TL.... although yeah certain groups of fans seem to be more *protective* of their beliefs than others. many people are just like that, in general - you know, "group think" and all.

Originally Posted by jbrownsjr

I didn't see the FB stuff.. but obviously I was being completely sarcastic(trying to make Elle laugh) I think it really does look like him, to be honest.

you were successful, and i'm sure i was not the only one!

[bombaysaffires]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Yes, posture, looks, weight all foreign. The only similarity between him and the "known" Lindsey is the hair color. Michele

^yup.

[michelej1]

Ok. Step right up, people. Bring us your boyhood Lincoln photos and we'll tell you if it looks like Abe. I have tools to measure the angle of his jawline and the distance between his eyes to compare to later photos of the president.

Michele

[secret love]

Originally Posted by elle

yup, definitely!

i agree with it stiffing debate and freedom of expression, but it is not really endemic to TL.... although yeah certain groups of fans seem to be more *protective* of their beliefs than others. many people are just like that, in general - you know, "group think" and all.


you were successful, and i'm sure i was not the only one!

You're right. It's not a problem endemic to The Ledge. In fact, where I live (Sydney, Australia) the media is dominated by two competing companies: News Corporation owned by Rupert Murdoch and Fairfax Media.

News Corp's newspapers and news websites are aggressively conservative, almost right-wing. We had a centre-left Labor government, last year before the federal election The Daily Telegraph ran the headline Finally You Can...KICK THIS MOB OUT.

Fairfax Media is moving towards being more of an online business. Their websites and newspapers tend to showcase the views of mainly left-wing opinion columnists.

The group think is all too familiar to me...

Myself, I am a card-carrying member of the Australian Labor Party. But that doesn't mean I always, no questions asked agree with my party's policies. Maybe 67% of time I do agree, but when in government the ALP have done some things I certainly wouldn't have done.

[BaronVonBielski]

Originally Posted by bombaysaffires

exactly.

will it be piling on or is it an attempt to counterbalance a lot of the stuff that's been put out there in recent years about LB (ref. Carol Harris, Ken Caillat, even Mick's book)? Calling LB his "mentor" and owing him "everything" certainly seems like it would be the latter.

I think it's about time someone give Lindsey a little more praise, especially now that he's a better person. Not saying that he was ever a bad person, but drugs can make you do things you might not ordinarily do. I'm about 3/4 through Caillat's book and he seems to enjoy bad mouthing LB more than anyone else. It seems to be that he hates having to give him any credit for Rumours even though we know it wouldn't have been possible without him. Not even close. I think Caillat is one lucky dick that practically fell into a river of gold and doesn't give enough credit to all of the people that made it possible. Seems to pick and choose. He even has hinted a lot so far in the book on how Stevie was so nice and sweet.... back then. So I'm waiting to hear about what he thinks now or what. This is just my opinion. We're all entitled to one. I think Lindsey is a genius. One of the absolute best guitar players as far as ability, but mostly creativity. Superb vision and crafting. I think Stevie is an excellent lyricist and unique vocalist. They are a top notch band in all areas. John is truly one of the best bassists of all time. FM is not FM without Christine and her voice, keys and Mick is a powerful, intense and impressive drummer. I love this band. I think Dashut deserves more credit for his contributions as well. It'd be cool if they worked with him again. Caillat can ride someone else's coat tails. Sorry, I think he's an ass. Plus, I could really give a **** about his personal life or his dog stories. The title of the book is on the making of Rumours and not an autobiography.

[PenguinHead]

Originally Posted by jbrownsjr

Holy crap! Good catch. I never made the connection, either.

Ricky fell off my radar years ago. I completely forgot that odd obscure gem.

Wasn't this thread initially about Richard Dashut's blog? It seems it derailed and devolved into a Ledgie squabble. But anyway...I finally was able to figure out how to post a question to Richard. (I'm social media disabled).

I thanked and praised him for what he was doing, and then asked him a question about another artist he has produced - Matthew Sweet. He is sort of flies under the radar but he's great singer/songwriter/guitar player who has been around since the late eighties.

He and the fantastic and seemingly ageless Suzanna Hoffs (of the Bangles) have, thus far, released three volumes of "Under the Covers." Each volume features songs from a particular decade- the 60s, 70s and 80s. Their musical references are impeccable. The 70s album covers Second Hand News, and the 80s album covers Lindsey's solo song Trouble.

Richard produced some of his earlier albums, but had no involvement with these cover albums. Cover albums can be cringe-worth and uneven. But these albums have a lot of integrity in honoring the artists. They sound amazing.

[bombaysaffires]

Originally Posted by BaronVonBielski

I think it's about time someone give Lindsey a little more praise, especially now that he's a better person. Not saying that he was ever a bad person, but drugs can make you do things you might not ordinarily do. I'm about 3/4 through Caillat's book and he seems to enjoy bad mouthing LB more than anyone else. It seems to be that he hates having to give him any credit for Rumours even though we know it wouldn't have been possible without him. Not even close. I think Caillat is one lucky dick that practically fell into a river of gold and doesn't give enough credit to all of the people that made it possible. Seems to pick and choose. He even has hinted a lot so far in the book on how Stevie was so nice and sweet.... back then. So I'm waiting to hear about what he thinks now or what. This is just my opinion. We're all entitled to one. I think Lindsey is a genius. One of the absolute best guitar players as far as ability, but mostly creativity. Superb vision and crafting. I think Stevie is an excellent lyricist and unique vocalist. They are a top notch band in all areas. John is truly one of the best bassists of all time. FM is not FM without Christine and her voice, keys and Mick is a powerful, intense and impressive drummer. I love this band. I think Dashut deserves more credit for his contributions as well. It'd be cool if they worked with him again. Caillat can ride someone else's coat tails. Sorry, I think he's an ass. Plus, I could really give a **** about his personal life or his dog stories. The title of the book is on the making of Rumours and not an autobiography.

I actually think both Ken and Richard contributed a lot to Rumours, especially technically. Lindsey wasn't the engineering master in the studio that he eventually became, and Ken was.(Richard refers to Ken's technical prowess a lot). Lindsey had the ideas, but still needed input of others more experienced to get those ideas on tape. Also, if you believe Richard, he himself championed Dreams when the rest of the band didn't quite see its potential. And Ken talks about contributing the idea of creating a pre-chorus on the what you had/what you lost part of the song before going into the actual chorus. My point is, Lindsey didn't come up with everything, and Rumours wouldn't necessarily be the Rumours we have if he'd been solely in charge. There's nothing wrong with either Ken or Richard pointing this out.

I love Lindsey, but sometimes I think he's given (or claims) a little too much credit on those earlier albums. I recall Keith Olsen saying one of the things he did in the early years with Buckingham Nicks was work with Lindsey to try and get him to understand how to work with other musicians and folks in the studio….not his strong suit, at least not then. I think LB is a genius, but I think he can also get too insular, too self-referential and just like Stevie benefits from having an editor (but won't see it) Lindsey benefits from having another production opinion in the studio to keep him balanced (but doesn't see it).

When I read Ken's book that was what I thought he was getting at-- that Lindsey was sooo into his own opinions that it was challenging to work with him. Also, like Stevie, I think fame did go to Lindsey's head for a few years…..with everyone telling you how brilliant you are how could it not go to your head? I think he, like Stevie, got a bit hard to handle with the ego for a time. None of that bothers me as a fan, though, because I don't think any of them are perfect, and I am kind of fascinated to know what really went on behind the public facade and what it really took for these people to keep this band going all these years. Despite what they may say at times it was definitely a hot mess and totally dysfunctional.

As for Stevie being sweet and nice 'back then' implying that changed, Richard has said the exact same thing. Early in his blog he was pretty honest about how fame went to all their heads and how hard it was to go from being someone's best buddy to having to make an appointment with all the entourage just to get to talk to her. He's tempered that a little over time saying that when someone gets huge and famous and all these people start wanting things from you, you do develop a shell just to protect yourself but that deep down if she trusts you she opens up and that same sweet person is there.

[michelej1]

Since Christine is the most disinterested party, I tend to believe what she says about Lindsey and Dreams. Of course, he worked on it with the other producers, but I believe his initial reaction was probably along the lines of what Christine said it was. I think that's why the band has given him credit for its sound. Of course, I'm sure he thinks he's amazing himself, but in this case, he wasn't even the first one giving himself credit.

Before we recorded Dreams, Stevie played it on the piano and Stevie is a self confessed non-musical person. She knows four chords on the piano, I think and as Lindsey always says, rightly, “yes, but they’re the right four chords” and she played the song for us and I thought to myself, 'I don’t know this sounds a little bit tedious to me it’s just going “ting, ding, ting ding” all the way through the song' and Lindsey, I suppose, in his great hindsight said, “no this is going to be wonderful. We’ll record it and build each section differently so that those four chords run all the way through.” Actually I think she only used three chords for this one but although they are the same three chords it doesn’t sound like it. It was actually our first number one, our only number one single in Fleetwood Mac history.

[elle]

Originally Posted by bombaysaffires

I love Lindsey, but sometimes I think he's given (or claims) a little too much credit on those earlier albums.

i don't really know what this means. he's given no written credit on those earlier albums - he is NOT listed as a producer there. he gets no money and no credit for all the producing work he did on those albums. he gets a tiny credit for his vision on Tusk liner notes, but no producer cut (is that correct?). the whole band is listed as producer together with other specific names on those 3 early albums.

after a while, it seems maybe in the 80s and certainly the 90s, after waiting for at least a decade to actually at least be given a nod by the rest of the band for what he actually did on those early albums, and not getting any, LB started talking about all that himself. it is sad that nobody else did, for so long - if what he, and Christine, and Richard say he was doing on those albums is true - and i don't see why especially Christine but i guess also Richard would be lying. and now Mick has finally been saying that too for the last few years, and also looks like he tried to make up for those early non-credits in his new book.

now, i'm just piecing all this together after the fact and there may be people here who have corrections on any and all of the above.

[bombaysaffires]

Originally Posted by elle

i don't really know what this means. he's given no written credit on those earlier albums - he is NOT listed as a producer there. he gets no money and no credit for all the producing work he did on those albums. he gets a tiny credit for his vision on Tusk liner notes, but no producer cut (is that correct?). the whole band is listed as producer together with other specific names on those 3 early albums.

after a while, it seems maybe in the 80s and certainly the 90s, after waiting for at least a decade to actually at least be given a nod by the rest of the band for what he actually did on those early albums, and not getting any, LB started talking about all that himself. it is sad that nobody else did, for so long - if what he, and Christine, and Richard say he was doing on those albums is true - and i don't see why especially Christine but i guess also Richard would be lying. and now Mick has finally been saying that too for the last few years, and also looks like he tried to make up for those early non-credits in his new book.

now, i'm just piecing all this together after the fact and there may be people here who have corrections on any and all of the above.

you're right, and I probably didn't express it as clearly as I should-- when I said credit I wasn't thinking of official credits or what was printed on an album sleeve, I was thinking in terms of taking/giving credit for the actual creative ideas that went into the production of the songs. Having 'the vision'. So by 'credit' I meant claiming or being acknowledged as having the vision of what the songs could become.

Maybe some of it is legitimate… that is, maybe at the time the band really didn't see or appreciate how big his influence on the sound was, and only in retrospect did they come to recognize it. I suspect the truth lies somewhere in the middle-- at the time he had a lot more vision and impact on the music than the others recognized, and at the same time maybe he is/was so focused on how much credit he *wasn't* getting and being hurt by that that he didn't see how much or how important the inputs were by other people. Both things surely have some validity.

[elle]

Originally Posted by BaronVonBielski

I think it's about time someone give Lindsey a little more praise, especially now that he's a better person. Not saying that he was ever a bad person, but drugs can make you do things you might not ordinarily do.

agree.

also, something that keeps being brought up by a few people lately and made me think - most of LB's character seems to be publicly defined by 2 of his ex-girlfriends. both of whom keep going back and forth on how horrible vs how gorgeous / great he was or is. while i tend to believe some of both the good and the bad they say, it does not look like the most objective picture of anybody could be painted by their exes.

something like recent description from Leo Sawyer (i think) of Lindsey back in the day always bailing his friends and going out of his way to pick them up and drive them wherever they needed to go cause they were too drunk to do it themselves paints a different side of his character.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by elle

i don't really know what this means. he's given no written credit on those earlier albums - he is NOT listed as a producer there. he gets no money and no credit for all the producing work he did on those albums.

I would expect that Lindsey did get some production money for Tusk, in addition to what the other band members made.

I think by the time Tusk came out and certainly while preparing for Mirage, the band, they were all crediting Lindsey a lot for their sound and their production decisions, be they good or bad.

In 1982, even John was saying to Billboard that "without Lindsey in the studio, it was difficult to continue work."

1982 was the same year that Christine said, "Dare I say this with him present? I have a lot of respect for this man; I don't really imagine anybody else being able to do what he does with my songs."


And Stevie did that whole thing about Lindsey putting the magic into her songs and she didn't know how to thank him other than going up to him and giving him 10% ... she said that in 1980. That was the same interview where she called him dragon boy.