Say You Will Poll: Stevie's Best Work Since. . .?

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by Glittermoondust

Better than Gypsy?? That's Alright?? Seven Wonders?? Juliet?? If You Ever Did Believe?? Fireflies?? Sorcerer??? Nope!!!

NO!!!!!!! absolutely not!!

[mylittledemon]

SYW is Stevie's best work since TISL.

[daniellaaarisen]

Originally Posted by holidayroad

At least her best Fleetwood Mac album since Tusk. Some of her solo in between was better than her songs on SYW.

Agreed. I like certain songs ("Trouble in Shangri-La", "Planets of the Universe", "It's Only Love", "Love Is", "Fall From Grace", etc.) from TISL more than I like anything on SYW. I think there are many many songs, especially on Bella Donna and Wild Heart, that blow anything she's done on SYW out of the water. I really think the only great tracks by Stevie on that album are "Thrown Down", "Destiny Rules" and "Goodbye Baby" (although GB was written forever ago and I like the demos better).

I donno, I don't see why anyone would think that SYW is some huge artistic breakthrough for Stevie.

[TrueFaith77]

Well, again, I think that Heijira(?) defined it best by establishing that SYW should be compared to collections of songs. Even then, if I listed my TEN favorite post-tusk Stevie tracks, I don't know that they would rival SYW as a whole -- though NOTHING ever in the history of man beats Gypsy and Edge of Seventeen. . .

I took the listening challenge twice today: Bella Donna vs. Say You Will. Sorry, for me, it's not even a contest.

Make no mistake: Bella Donna is a beautiful thing. And while the vocal production is topnotch and the harmonies are delicate and the songwriting is lovely, the arrangements are... dull. I don't hear any adventure (EO17 excepted, of course). And the songs are a step down after FM, R, and T. (Now, for those who feel my preference is absurd, the country twang of BD might not be to everyone's taste.)

I might be in the minority in that I actually prefer Stevie's contributions to the mighty SYW to Lindsey's.

NOTES

My playlist of her SYW tracks begins with Not Make Believe. Wow!! The tumbling drums (Mick and John are not on Bella Donna!)! The vocals and guitars!! It's sonic bliss. Then, beginning proper, Illume 9/11 really rivals the gravity of Eo17: both songs deal with death and catastrophe by charting how they change her consciousness. What other post-9/11 song has done this better? This establishes the meaning for the rest of the album (what unites her songs with Lindsey's):

Thrown Down -- "Faith is a hard thing to hold onto / Something inside you says I don't have to"
Say You Will -- an invitiation and a social contract
Smile At You -- heartbreak; gesture (understanding)
Running Through The Garden -- how we deal with pain; how we mourn
Silver Girl -- a minor song that predates Mary Gaitskill's triumphant short story ("Mirror Ball"): "You cannot see her soul unless she lets you see her soul"!!!
EFO -- The strings!
Destiny Rules -- Tracks back to Illume to show how 9/11 has impacted her view of ... everything! ... especially Lindsey who graces the song with the loveliest guitar playing this side of Johnny Marr (i cribbed that from somewhere else... but it's so true)
Goodbye Baby -- Tears. Hard-won catharsis at last. Or deep reflection.

It's a full cycle. Adventurous. New insights. Art that addresses a great communal need. For the first time since Tusk, her work achieves (in conjunction with Lindsey's) and mystical imagery serves the purpose of a real social vision.

BD just doesn't offer that kind of spectacle (outside of Eo17).

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by TrueFaith77

Well, again, I think that Heijira(?) defined it best by establishing that SYW should be compared to collections of songs. Even then, if I listed my TEN favorite post-tusk Stevie tracks, I don't know that they would rival SYW as a whole -- though NOTHING ever in the history of man beats Gypsy and Edge of Seventeen. . .

I took the listening challenge twice today: Bella Donna vs. Say You Will. Sorry, for me, it's not even a contest.

Make no mistake: Bella Donna is a beautiful thing. And while the vocal production is topnotch and the harmonies are delicate and the songwriting is lovely, the arrangements are... dull. I don't hear any adventure (EO17 excepted, of course). And the songs are a step down after FM, R, and T. (Now, for those who feel my preference is absurd, the country twang of BD might not be to everyone's taste.)

I might be in the minority in that I actually prefer Stevie's contributions to the mighty SYW to Lindsey's.

NOTES

My playlist of her SYW tracks begins with Not Make Believe. Wow!! The tumbling drums (Mick and John are not on Bella Donna!)! The vocals and guitars!! It's sonic bliss. Then, beginning proper, Illume 9/11 really rivals the gravity of Eo17: both songs deal with death and catastrophe by charting how they change her consciousness. What other post-9/11 song has done this better? This establishes the meaning for the rest of the album (what unites her songs with Lindsey's):

Thrown Down -- "Faith is a hard thing to hold onto / Something inside you says I don't have to"
Say You Will -- an invitiation and a social contract
Smile At You -- heartbreak; gesture (understanding)
Running Through The Garden -- how we deal with pain; how we mourn
Silver Girl -- a minor song that predates Mary Gaitskill's triumphant short story ("Mirror Ball"): "You cannot see her soul unless she lets you see her soul"!!!
EFO -- The strings!
Destiny Rules -- Tracks back to Illume to show how 9/11 has impacted her view of ... everything! ... especially Lindsey who graces the song with the loveliest guitar playing this side of Johnny Marr (i cribbed that from somewhere else... but it's so true)
Goodbye Baby -- Tears. Hard-won catharsis at last. Or deep reflection.

It's a full cycle. Adventurous. New insights. Art that addresses a great communal need. For the first time since Tusk, her work achieves (in conjunction with Lindsey's) and mystical imagery serves the purpose of a real social vision.

BD just doesn't offer that kind of spectacle (outside of Eo17).

Considering BD's vintage, I would be hard pressed to think of an album by a contemporary rock act of its time that I would consider "adventurous." I guess you could say it was a simpler time- when guitars sounded like guitars and pianos sounded like pianos. The beauty about BD was that it didn't try to be something that it wasn't. It didn't employ the latest fad sounds and effects. And it was timeless in a way- lacking any references to "a high tech world." The focus here was the song and the arrangements. Every "ooh" and every scream of the guitar. Every instrument had its place and every note existed to complement the voice, which was often used as an instrument as well. Rather than flooding our ears with noise, the sparseness lent the songs an emotional honesty- the urgent solo guitar riff of Eo17, the haunting unadorned piano/high-hat intro to "Kind of Woman," the sexy piano/guitar/percussion intro to "How Still My Love," etc. The music conveyed urgency, anger, joy, pain, drama... all of these emotions that I think were kind of blunted on Stevie's SYW songs by production. And I love how the songs on BD had a beginning, middle and end to them. They built up to an uncertain emotional climax and then ebbed into a sober new understanding of the truth. On "Bella Donna," the woman moves on after her epiphany, i.e., coming "out of the darkness." On E017, at the end she finally reveals the symbolism of the dove's song. At the end of "The Highwayman," she reveals that her love lives on only in her dreams. Indeed, there are hints of this kind of writing in songs like RTTG and "Destiny Rules," and "Thrown Down," but for the most part, I don't feel that same kind of connection emotionally to her songs on SYW.

[Glittermoondust]

Originally Posted by mylittledemon

SYW is Stevie's best work since TISL.

Now that was funny!!

[vivfox]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Considering BD's vintage, I would be hard pressed to think of an album by a contemporary rock act of its time that I would consider "adventurous." I guess you could say it was a simpler time- when guitars sounded like guitars and pianos sounded like pianos. The beauty about BD was that it didn't try to be something that it wasn't. It didn't employ the latest fad sounds and effects. And it was timeless in a way- lacking any references to "a high tech world." The focus here was the song and the arrangements. Every "ooh" and every scream of the guitar. Every instrument had its place and every note existed to complement the voice, which was often used as an instrument as well. Rather than flooding our ears with noise, the sparseness lent the songs an emotional honesty- the urgent solo guitar riff of Eo17, the haunting unadorned piano/high-hat intro to "Kind of Woman," the sexy piano/guitar/percussion intro to "How Still My Love," etc. The music conveyed urgency, anger, joy, pain, drama... all of these emotions that I think were kind of blunted on Stevie's SYW songs by production. And I love how the songs on BD had a beginning, middle and end to them. They built up to an uncertain emotional climax and then ebbed into a sober new understanding of the truth. On "Bella Donna," the woman moves on after her epiphany, i.e., coming "out of the darkness." On E017, at the end she finally reveals the symbolism of the dove's song. At the end of "The Highwayman," she reveals that her love lives on only in her dreams. Indeed, there are hints of this kind of writing in songs like RTTG and "Destiny Rules," and "Thrown Down," but for the most part, I don't feel that same kind of connection emotionally to her songs on SYW.

Wow. That was so beautifully written. This should be in a magazine. Thank you!

[Musicman408]

I was really on the fence with this one. SYW is what got me into FM and I absolutely adore it!!! That being said, I can't say that SYW is necessarily her best work since Tusk!

[David]

What was so great about her work on Tusk? The White Album & Rumours are where she really shined as a songwriter. Them's her apex. Since then, everything's been dependent on a great vocal or a great, catchy orchestration (putting aside her greatness as a live singer for many years).

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by David

What was so great about her work on Tusk? The White Album & Rumours are where she really shined as a songwriter. Them's her apex. Since then, everything's been dependent on a great vocal or a great, catchy orchestration (putting aside her greatness as a live singer for many years).

I love the the simplicity and beauty of Beautiful Child
I love the intensity and drive of Sisters of the Moon
I love the poppy crispness of Angel
I do like Sara... but I always thought it was too long by about a minute
Storms quaint beauty speaks for itself... (studio that is) This last tour live.. no no no no no....

[Black_Moon]

Originally Posted by David

What was so great about her work on Tusk? The White Album & Rumours are where she really shined as a songwriter. Them's her apex. Since then, everything's been dependent on a great vocal or a great, catchy orchestration (putting aside her greatness as a live singer for many years).

I think all five of her songs on Tusk have beautifully written lyrics. It's like every word serves its purpose which I think she's been quite "hit and miss" with in later years -- thus, the excessive amount of 'wells', which is lazy writing as much as I love hearing her different vocal inflections on them.

Say You Will is her best work since Trouble in Shangri-La, make no mistake. The latter was a breakthrough, probably the most consistent set of songs she'd put forward to an album since The Wild Heart (if I'm being objective, because I love all of her songs on Rock A Little and Tango in the Night). Say You Will, while for the most part her songs in my opinion are better than Lindsey's, there are only a couple that make me get that knotted feeling in my chest of a great song. It's one of those albums which I played to death when I first became a Fleetwood Mac fan, and now I'm a bit indifferent with and I haven't listened all the way through since last year.

[daniellaaarisen]

Originally Posted by David

What was so great about her work on Tusk? The White Album & Rumours are where she really shined as a songwriter. Them's her apex. Since then, everything's been dependent on a great vocal or a great, catchy orchestration (putting aside her greatness as a live singer for many years).

Her stuff on Rumours (I'm going to count "Silver Springs" in this) is all very precise, both lyrically and musically. All of her words make perfect sense and follow a fundamental flow of (poetic) logic. They are concise, carefully worded and, in my opinion, absolutely perfect.

Her Tusk songs are much more fairy-like, if you will. Lyrically, she isn't anywhere close to that type of precision. She's just looser and more poetic but without as clear of an objective with her images. Take "Dreams" versus "Angel" and "Sara." In "Dreams", she stays conventional in her imagery... "thunder only happens when its raining" and the like. With "Angel" and "Sara", you have great dark wings and charmed hours and haunted songs and undone laces and ghosts in fog and basically, just a ton of crazy ****. I LOVE Stevie's stuff on Tusk because of it, but its just a very different side of her as a writer. She got looser, she experimented a little more, she took things less literally. And I think her later work is definitely a combination of Rumours Stevie and Tusk Stevie. And guess what? I'm in love with them both.

[Dodfather]

Originally Posted by TrueFaith77

Well, again, I think that Heijira(?) defined it best by establishing that SYW should be compared to collections of songs. Even then, if I listed my TEN favorite post-tusk Stevie tracks, I don't know that they would rival SYW as a whole -- though NOTHING ever in the history of man beats Gypsy and Edge of Seventeen. . .

I took the listening challenge twice today: Bella Donna vs. Say You Will. Sorry, for me, it's not even a contest.

Make no mistake: Bella Donna is a beautiful thing. And while the vocal production is topnotch and the harmonies are delicate and the songwriting is lovely, the arrangements are... dull. I don't hear any adventure (EO17 excepted, of course). And the songs are a step down after FM, R, and T. (Now, for those who feel my preference is absurd, the country twang of BD might not be to everyone's taste.)

I might be in the minority in that I actually prefer Stevie's contributions to the mighty SYW to Lindsey's.

NOTES

My playlist of her SYW tracks begins with Not Make Believe. Wow!! The tumbling drums (Mick and John are not on Bella Donna!)! The vocals and guitars!! It's sonic bliss. Then, beginning proper, Illume 9/11 really rivals the gravity of Eo17: both songs deal with death and catastrophe by charting how they change her consciousness. What other post-9/11 song has done this better? This establishes the meaning for the rest of the album (what unites her songs with Lindsey's):

Thrown Down -- "Faith is a hard thing to hold onto / Something inside you says I don't have to"
Say You Will -- an invitiation and a social contract
Smile At You -- heartbreak; gesture (understanding)
Running Through The Garden -- how we deal with pain; how we mourn
Silver Girl -- a minor song that predates Mary Gaitskill's triumphant short story ("Mirror Ball"): "You cannot see her soul unless she lets you see her soul"!!!
EFO -- The strings!
Destiny Rules -- Tracks back to Illume to show how 9/11 has impacted her view of ... everything! ... especially Lindsey who graces the song with the loveliest guitar playing this side of Johnny Marr (i cribbed that from somewhere else... but it's so true)
Goodbye Baby -- Tears. Hard-won catharsis at last. Or deep reflection.

It's a full cycle. Adventurous. New insights. Art that addresses a great communal need. For the first time since Tusk, her work achieves (in conjunction with Lindsey's) and mystical imagery serves the purpose of a real social vision.

BD just doesn't offer that kind of spectacle (outside of Eo17).

I agree with most of this although I'm not keen on Silver Girl. The strongs on Everybody Finds Out are by far the best thing on it, they're great! Anew sound for the band too.

I was wondering, does anyone have an mp3 of Not Make Believe? Not sure if it can be posted because it may still be commercially available but if so that would be great. I;ve been looking for it for AGES because I stupidly didn;t get the special edition of Say You Will and have been kiciking myself since! Thanks everyone.

[David]

Originally Posted by jbrownsjr

I love the the simplicity and beauty of Beautiful Child
I love the intensity and drive of Sisters of the Moon
I love the poppy crispness of Angel
I do like Sara... but I always thought it was too long by about a minute
Storms quaint beauty speaks for itself... (studio that is) This last tour live.. no no no no no....

Well, as usual when we're all talking about Stevie, we start conflating everything the whole band is doing & ascribing it solely to Stevie. Fans do that a lot on her solo albums, too. They talk about what an energetic track I Can't Wait is, for example -- but she didn't compose that! She didn't compose the cool guitar work on Edge of Seventeen. She didn't compose the trancelike club rhythms on Illume. She didn't compose the "poppy crispness" on Angel (Christine is more responsible than anyone for the style & sound you love on that track.). She didn't compose the earthy arrangements on Bella Donna.

She writes the chords & the lyrics, & does the vocal.

[TrueFaith77]

Originally Posted by David

Well, as usual when we're all talking about Stevie, we start conflating everything the whole band is doing & ascribing it solely to Stevie. Fans do that a lot on her solo albums, too. They talk about what an energetic track I Can't Wait is, for example -- but she didn't compose that! She didn't compose the cool guitar work on Edge of Seventeen. She didn't compose the trancelike club rhythms on Illume. She didn't compose the "poppy crispness" on Angel (Christine is more responsible than anyone for the style & sound you love on that track.). She didn't compose the earthy arrangements on Bella Donna.

She writes the chords & the lyrics, & does the vocal.

Well, that's the point of this thread. Not to judge just the chords, lyrics, and vocals but also whether or not the songs are served by the collaborations and the context.

---

Anyway, as a continuation of this fascinating thread, I thought it would be interesting to get more precise responses on the poll itself: What is Stevie's best collection of songs after TUSK?

http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?t=41935