Let's show some love for Penguin and Heroes!

[dino]

Originally Posted by chriskisn

Arrrggggh...I can't take all this anti-Dave Walker stuff...I swear that if the boys in his current band can get him on the net I'm going to try to drag him into this forum to defend himself.

The man is brilliant, he oozes talent, raw, rockin' smokin' talent!

now if only there was an emoticon for sitting in the corner crying uncontrollably I'd use it.

I'm definitely pro-Walker - he is obviously a fine singer. Can see why he wouldn't appeal to Rumours-era fans though - he's too bluesy, too authentic .

[HomerMcvie]

I started to type that these were both my least favorite Welch forward FM albums. But when I really thought about it, one reason I never listen to these two, is that these are the only ones I have on vinyl only, not on CD. And I just never break out the turntable(it's a POS) anymore. But, now that I really think about it, while I like HAHTF soso, Penguin just never grew on me.

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by holidayroad

Maybe it's just me Not everyone is going to like the same voice.

Hence, not everyone being blindly enamoured with Stevie Nicks.

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by sjpdg

I agree wholeheartedly slipkid. Mick is pursuing the MFBB because of a love for that era of the band and a desire to recapture that time. Mick loves Peter and would probably cut off his right arm if he thought it would bring Peter back to play with him. At least that's how I see it. My personal dream is to have Peter play with Rick, and get John to sit in on bass, but that dream I'm afraid will remain so always, just a dream.

Thanks for the support sjpdg, I thought I was stuck in Bob Welch era-fan purgatory for my blasphemous words . I like your idea of Peter Green with Rick Vito, since Rick Vito saw FM in 1968 in Philly at the Electric Factory. I think Mike Dodd is doing wonders to bring back the old Peter Green. I doubt it will happen, but I'm glad that Peter Green today is in a much better place than he was with Splinter Group.

Since Mick Fleetwood took over as de-facto leader after Peter Green left 5/70, he has realized for a very long time what that band lost. I've heard Mick Fleetwood's drumming for Eddie Boyd's sessions with Blue Horizon records. He had blues drumming down to a science. Yet today most of the fans from the '75, and beyond FM see him as the crazy eyed coked out maniac drummer during the late 70's. That's why the MFBB exists.

[aleuzzi]

Originally Posted by jaycee

I'm surprised Heroes Are Hard To Find isn't well respected! I mean, that's really surprising to me! With the exception of "She's Changing Me", this is a very creative album, much like... well, all of the FM albums I've heard so far, actually!
As for Penguin... well, I haven't heard it yet! But I ordered it at JB Hi-Fi, so it should arrive soon... anyway, I love "Did You Ever Love Me" (I own SF25YTC)! If most of the other songs on Penguin are of that quality, I'd be hard pressed not to love it!

At the time of its release, Heroes got very good notices in the press. Since then, reviewers have either loved it or thought it the band's worst. I am quite mixed on the record myself. It has all the potential to be amazing--the songs in themselves are very strong. But there's a curious lack of energy in the studio performances and the arrangements are occasionally too thick with simulated strings, that damned arp string ensemble. None of these problems surface on the two 74 bootlegs I've heard of the Heroes tour, where all the Heroes songs performed in the sets sound vital and rocking.

I would kill to hear Bad Loser performed live on a bootleg with a decent sound level (my only bootleg performance of this song is so bad, I can hardly hear it.)

...........

Penguin did not get good notices in the press--and was even often ignored by the press. Rolling Stone failed to review it, despite reviewing all other studio Mac albums from Then Play On to Heroes. I imagine the reason for its initially weak critical reception was NOT David Walker--though he might not have helped. It was the absence of Kirwan, whom many felt finally put the band's glory days to rest.

Despite all of this, Penguin remains for me the most immediately pleasurable of Mac's 71-74-era albums. It's not always consistent, and it's conspicuously short on material (could use two or three more songs), but what is good here is REALLY good. All of Christine's songs sparkle here with a genuine energy she had not yet revealed on either of the two previous Mac albums. And Remember Me is so similar in attitude and style to her later hits. I think Welch's material here is also fine. I love the mellow, Pink Floyd-like dreaminess of Bright Fire, the fiery Revelation and especially the CSNY-influenced Night Watch. Weston's Caught in the Rain is quite lovely in an understated way.

That leaves us with Dave Walker's contributions. I do like (not love) The Derelict, though it sounds as if it should have been recorded in another context. There is no excuse for Road Runner, where the band players can't seem to sound soulful enough to back up Walker's ballsy delivery. Walker is a great singer in his own context. There's no way his approach meshes with the rest of the band's reserved musicianship. Weston is an extroverted guitarist, but his energy sounds right layed over the tight, concise rhythms of Fleetwood and the McVies. Walker's belting, however, is just too big for that kind of trio.

[sjpdg]

Originally Posted by slipkid

Thanks for the support sjpdg, I thought I was stuck in Bob Welch era-fan purgatory for my blasphemous words . I like your idea of Peter Green with Rick Vito, since Rick Vito saw FM in 1968 in Philly at the Electric Factory. I think Mike Dodd is doing wonders to bring back the old Peter Green. I doubt it will happen, but I'm glad that Peter Green today is in a much better place than he was with Splinter Group.

Since Mick Fleetwood took over as de-facto leader after Peter Green left 5/70, he has realized for a very long time what that band lost. I've heard Mick Fleetwood's drumming for Eddie Boyd's sessions with Blue Horizon records. He had blues drumming down to a science. Yet today most of the fans from the '75, and beyond FM see him as the crazy eyed coked out maniac drummer during the late 70's. That's why the MFBB exists.

My pleasure!!

[sjpdg]

Originally Posted by aleuzzi

That leaves us with Dave Walker's contributions. I do like (not love) The Derelict, though it sounds as if it should have been recorded in another context. There is no excuse for Road Runner, where the band players can't seem to sound soulful enough to back up Walker's ballsy delivery. Walker is a great singer in his own context. There's no way his approach meshes with the rest of the band's reserved musicianship. Weston is an extroverted guitarist, but his energy sounds right layed over the tight, concise rhythms of Fleetwood and the McVies. Walker's belting, however, is just too big for that kind of trio.

I think you may be on to something here. I honestly had not thought of this in this kind of context before. Perhaps in a different band, Walker's delivery might have come off well, but for me, it just didn't fit FM at this time in it's history. Had the band still been doing straight blues, these tracks might have been recorded differently and Walker's performance might have been more widely accepted, or might have fit better within the context of a straight blues record. His voice isn't bad, it just doesn't fit with the rest of the material on the album, at least in my opinion.

Thanks for putting it in those terms. It gave me something to think about I hadn't before.

[holidayroad]

Originally Posted by chiliD

Hence, not everyone being blindly enamoured with Stevie Nicks.

Which explains why I'm not blindly enamoured with Stevie Nicks I like her, but I am mostly a Buckingham fan (obvious, right?!) As for the other members of FM, My other top 3 are Christine, Bob Welch, and Danny Kirwan.

[louielouie2000]

Originally Posted by dino

I'm definitely pro-Walker - he is obviously a fine singer. Can see why he wouldn't appeal to Rumours-era fans though - he's too bluesy, too authentic .

I'm a bit of an odd bird when it comes to blues and blues singers... but a white dude from England is NOT an authentic blues singer . About the furthest thing you can get from authentic, in my book. When I hear white English dudes like Walker, Joe Cocker, and others trying to emulate gritty Delta blues men, it just puts a sandy pinecone up my orifice of choice. Those type dudes don't know anything about being a black man in the Southern US, where you couldn't drink from the white man's water fountain, and had to go to separate schools, etc. White English dudes who try to sing gritty blues are just a caricature emulating the real thing, in my book. And they always end up profiting from the sound they're aping, while the original folks never get rich off their craft. I think that's why I at least respect Peter Green's approach to the blues a bit more... he made it his own. He didn't try to sing like anybody else. He didn't try to carbon copy his pacing and tone on his guitar.

But alas, that's not the big reason why I don't care for songs like I'm A Roadrunner and The Derelict. To me, they're just sorely, sorely out of place on Penguin. They have nothing to do with the rest of the album. They're a wart. If the entire album had that sound, it'd be a different story. These tunes could have worked on Bare Trees, perhaps... but not Penguin. To me, the '73-'74 Mac albums were starting to get a quite progressive sound to them... and I'm A Roadrunner and The Derelict just seem like two steps back. Just my humble opinion tho, folks!

[chriskisn]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

But alas, that's not the big reason why I don't care for songs like I'm A Roadrunner and The Derelict. To me, they're just sorely, sorely out of place on Penguin. They have nothing to do with the rest of the album.

Or to look at it another way, the rest of Penguin is sorely out of place...

Oh and to address the other point of your post that I didn't quote here - remember as Jeremy Spencer says - you don't have to be black to be blue...

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

I think that's why I at least respect Peter Green's approach to the blues a bit more... he made it his own. He didn't try to sing like anybody else. He didn't try to carbon copy his pacing and tone on his guitar.

You don't have to be of color, and born in the southeast U.S. to experience prejudice, and bigotry. Peter Green was born into a blue-collar family of a Jewish butcher in England. Compare that to Mike Bloomfield, who was Jewish from Chicago, who had a father that made a fortune from his invention patents. Especially living in England, Peter Green suffered more anti-semitic behavior than Mike Bloomfield. Yet both must've experienced that pain of rejection just because of their religion, and appearance. Of course they weren't poor enough to pick cotton for a living, but they experienced the same pain of rejection because of who they were. Is it any wonder why Peter Green, and Mike Bloomfield's work over forty years ago is still appreciated? Personally I hear more pain through Peter Green. It's very real.

[aleuzzi]

Originally Posted by chriskisn

Or to look at it another way, the rest of Penguin is sorely out of place...

As a critical premise, it doesn't work. Dave Walker joined to the band, the band did not join him. So as much as you love his work (and I can see why) and as much as you might think the rest of the album iffy the McVie/Welch material was "in place" given the band's direction at that time.

I think Walker as a singer is as good as any big-voiced hard-rocking front man in any number of 70's power bands. FM just wasn't that kind of band. Deep Purple should have hired him after Ian Gillan (sp?) left.

[dino]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

I'm a bit of an odd bird when it comes to blues and blues singers... but a white dude from England is NOT an authentic blues singer .

Stop waving, we're not on live television... Where did I write "authentic blues singer"? I did not, right. As for the rest, slipkid put it nicely. The old argument that a white man can't play/sing blues (look at Eric Clapton in Armani suits) is a kind of inverted racism. All pop music is African in origin anyway.

Yep, Walker would have fit better in Deep Purple, a less wimpy band .

[chriskisn]

Originally Posted by aleuzzi

As a critical premise, it doesn't work. Dave Walker joined to the band, the band did not join him. So as much as you love his work (and I can see why) and as much as you might think the rest of the album iffy the McVie/Welch material was "in place" given the band's direction at that time.

I think Walker as a singer is as good as any big-voiced hard-rocking front man in any number of 70's power bands. FM just wasn't that kind of band. Deep Purple should have hired him after Ian Gillan (sp?) left.

Perhaps.

I've never managed to see how Fleetwood Mac has ever managed to put together an album that sounds like it all belongs together, perhaps with a couple of exceptions - Heroes are Hard To Find and PG's Fleetwood Mac.

Plus, it wasn't as if Dave Walker changed in any way when he came into FM, he sounded the same as his Idle Race and Savoy Brown work. So, my argument is this:

FM hired Dave to do a particular job, give a particular sound. Then the rest of them went and did an album that wasn't going to fit with Dave. Surely at some point they sat down and said "Oh we want to go in this particular direction, Dave Walker will fit in well with that..." It really was the rest of the bands fault if he didn't.

If the band never intended to go in that direction then they would not have hired him... His introduction was designed to change the FM sound, sadly the rest of them didn't move on until at least Tusk...

[PenguinHead]

Originally Posted by chriskisn

If the band never intended to go in that direction then they would not have hired him... His introduction was designed to change the FM sound, sadly the rest of them didn't move on until at least Tusk...

The reason they hired Dave was not to change the sound of the band. Recalling comments from band members, they convinced themselves to believe that they needed a front man...at this point in time.

Yet they were very uncomfortable with that prospect -- hence his limited output on the album. They just didn't really know what to do with him - how to assimilate him into the group as the front man. Then it became very obvious to all that the chemistry was off and having an official designated "front man" was not the preferred format of a Fleetwood Mac band.