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#181
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Lindsey would be the last person to try and make a song more appealing to the masses, don't you think? Aren't we all so proud of him for his "artistic integrity" in doing his thing against the mainstream? Do we think he disregards Stevie's own right to use a song she has written to convey an emotion that perhaps everyone might not like? I find this hard to believe. It would be amazingly disrespectful to Stevie. Quote:
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And I know some people who will be surprised to hear that "Family Man" is Lindsey satirizing his inability to write lyrics! The song's lyrics suck, but that seems completely unintentional to me. Or are Stevie's insipid lines in the song that started this thread also "self-ridicule"? Nah, couldn't be. Stevie is not capable of such deep thought. Let's call in Lindsey to do it for her, shall we? Quote:
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Well, if Lindsey wants to do this kind of philosophizing to make sure everyone mourns more "intellectually," then I repeat that he can write his own song about it. Perhaps the reason why Stevie's song is so personal is that she doesn't believe she has the right to tell people what they should be feeling after 911. But she DOES have the right to express her OWN ideas and she DID SO. Lindsey has enough integrity to respect her right! Quote:
I actually agree with this overall sentiment! Lindsey is not afraid to express criticism of such things IN HIS OWN SONGS. But why would he presume to hijack Stevie's to do so? How selfish would that be? Quote:
Again, I agree with this sentiment in general. But I refuse to believe Lindsey would use Stevie's song as a format for conveying his own message (and, really, mocking voices wouldn't effectively convey this anyway.) Quote:
I hope by now you understand why I would find it impossible to believe Lindsey would superimpose his own agenda on Stevie's songs that way. Quote:
Well, perhaps he isn't just trying to be "different," but he certainly isn't trying to improve Stevie's meaning somehow, because he deems it inadequate to express a true range of emotions. Quote:
So you think I am underestimating his talent as a producer by not agreeing that he is changing Stevie's meaning for her? Whatever. Quote:
If you want to twist Stevie's lyrics into a meaning you prefer by using some supposed "meaning" Lindsey added, that's your right. It WOULD make about as much sense as a few of the things that some people have sent me. But I for one think that going beyond the lyrics to find meaning FROM ANOTHER PERSON is totally unfair to Stevie. "Stevie feels this, but we can tell from how Lindsey treated her song that he believes her feelings are inadequate. Luckily he has taken it upon himself to make her song more appropriate. Aren't we fortunate he was around to 'improve' Stevie's meaning and express what other people feel? Isn't that what music production's all about - changing the songwriter's meaning to fit the producer's agenda? Lindsey sure is a good meaning producer, isn't he?" Quote:
Last edited by sodascouts; 01-21-2004 at 11:56 PM.. |
#182
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Good lord.
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#183
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#184
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#185
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Wish I could contribute more to this tome of a thread, but alas, I am fresh out.
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#186
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12 full screens of text for one post does tend to wear one out, no?
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#187
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ha and it still makes no sense to me
Lorraine |
01-21-2004, 03:58 PM |
trackaghost |
This message has been deleted by trackaghost.
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#188
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We have political threads that run over 50 pages over on the Chit Chat board!
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#189
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Would she go for that kind of reaction? I do get the feeling that she probably wouldn’t. Quote:
If the voices were intended as sarcastic and were added without Stevie’s approval then that would suggest that LB would still have some ire towards SN, or that his relationship with her isn’t all that they’ve made us believe now. I wouldn’t want to say so though. Ok, I do believe that if someone’s a real friend to you then he/she will also shake you up once in a while when you’re all self-centred by deflating your self-importance. But I do not wish to suggest that. Instead I do believe that Stevie approved of the voices fully. But I also believe that those voices can’t be subjugated to represent one particular, obvious thing. Lindsey very rarely hits us on the head anyway; he can be very vague. That’s what those voices are too; they’re open to all kinds of interpretations. They’ve screamed “sarcasm!” at me since day one of listening to SYW but I guess that tells more of me than of anything else. Besides, if someone was to ask Lindsey what those voices are doing in there we probably wouldn’t get a straight answer from the man. He’s so vague in interviews too nowadays. I’m sure it’s mainly because he doesn’t want to ruin other people’s interpretations. But then again it could be because he’s too scared to discuss his songs and contributions in more detail, unlike Stevie. Quote:
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Alright, everyone wouldn’t like what Stevie’s expressing in “Illume”. But this song wasn’t intended as a single. In some songs LB’s emphasis is to approach the mainstream (although with the possible “alienation” factor), with the rest he can do pretty much what he likes. If Stevie would have wanted to cash in on “Illume” she would have called in another producer or told Lindsey that he can’t do everything he wants with it. Then the song wouldn’t have the hellish guitars or goofy voices. No way do I think those goofy voices are trying to “seduce the masses”. The masses would rather listen to a song that can be more easily interpreted as being about grief (I mean “Illume” without the voices) than something that has those voices which change the mood completely for a while. Lindsey may be using a thing that was fashionable once but he’s using it in a very unlikely context. Quote:
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And to be honest, I don’t think Stevie has ever let out a weak lyric in an official release. Of course, as someone who doesn’t “get lyrics” like the native speakers of the English language do, I don’t think I’m that capable of seeing what makes a certain Stevie lyric a masterpiece and why some other piece of is supposed to be below par. But there’s no way I think the lyrics of “When I See You Again” are bad, especially when that voice is singing them. “Family Man”, on the other hand, but then again the arrangement covers most of that up. OK. Do you want to know why I write this “pseudo-intellectual rubbish”? Because I hate to see the usual assumption of “Stevie being deeper than Lindsey”. That Stevie’s songs have more depth, that they’re more emotional and personal etc. I’m not denying her more intimate approach at all but I still think the whole assumption is selling Lindsey a bit short. Just because he doesn’t write like Stevie does and doesn’t have the same voice are some dismissing him? It’s unfair in my opinion. Sure, Lindsey’s more self-conscious. Sure, his lyrics were mainly poor in the early days. Sure, he likes the unusual dashes, large dramatic shifts. But that’s the way he expresses himself, in everything he puts into his songs. You need to take his songs as the final products with all these various streams of emotions coming in. He isn’t any less deep than Stevie is, he just achieves a different kind of depth. Nancy, I don’t think Stevie really philosophises over her songs, or at least not as much as Lindsey does over his. She has one very powerful tool, her voice. It’s always been capable of expressing different emotions and with her getting “older and wiser” it has reached this mature point where it can present very subtle variants of those. I’ve never thought Lindsey’s voice has such potential, if it does it’s just a fraction of Stevie’s. Lindsey covers this up with his musical skills while Stevie doesn’t really need those. I don’t think either is deeper than the other, they just express different things. Together or alone. Quote:
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But why do I feel it’s a different message that I get from the song during those 23 seconds? I think “Illume” has an approach somewhat similar to very many classic progressive rock pieces; you state a theme and later repeat it in a different context and evoking different emotions; often it can seem like they’re playing an entirely new thing altogether. In early ‘70s prog rock you usually played a particular theme with acoustic instruments and then later on it transformed into a fiery electric showcase. In this format the same theme can mean an entirely different thing when it’s played with different tone colours. “Illume” doesn’t work entirely like that, it’s a five-minute song by a band that’s supposed to be doing “pop”. Instead they use the lyrical repetition: the “what I saw on this journey” stanza gives a totally different impression when done by those goofy voices as does Stevie’s furious vocal when it repeats the chorus after that. Now if that approach suggests different things in prog, why can’t it do so here? Quote:
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Of course I’m not asking you to do this because it can be difficult. It’s harder to analyse music along with lyrics than just purely lyrics; it can often be like “dancing about architecture”, as Frank Zappa put it. Yet I think that Lindsey communicates to us as much through his music as he does through his lyrics. And even Les, who seems to be the most vocal supporter of this theory along with me, hasn’t put anything like that on her site. And she most likely won’t. Quote:
If that’s what you got from my post then it really must have failed to represent what I think and feel. Quote:
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Gaius ^ - "a selfindulged, but funny butthead of a Fin" - Shackin'up |
#191
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