Interesting numbers...

[sulamith]

Les, I understand what you are saying about Lindsey's directions and even about him directing alot of his words to his own self, but really, even Christine called Tusk the "bitch at Stevie" album, and as far as his emotional lowpoint, wasn't that the Tour during which he walked over and kicked Stevie on stage in New Zealand? He seems pretty overstimulated and and on the verge of coming unglued in alot of the footage, shaking all over and gesturing wildly.
He was strung out and emotionally raw, and even though I buy all the stuff about him trying to be pared down and anti-pop, I will always believe he was dealing with Stevie with most of that verbal bomb-tossing he was doing during that time.
Even he has said he couldn't get over her, and even though alot of folks don't believe that, I do, and that's the way I'll stay. There are also alot of poeple who DO believe it (WINK, WINK)!
I feel that was his motivation for alot of his actions.
I don't expect to change anyone's opinions, and I won't change mine, but I'll agree to disagree on it, and I love discussing it!

[Les]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sulamith
Les, I understand what you are saying about Lindsey's directions and even about him directing alot of his words to his own self, but really, even Christine called Tusk the "bitch at Stevie" album..

Hi ,

Christine may have, but I don't think she liked several of Lindsey's "Tusk" songs until years later, so I don't actually imagine that she put a lot of thought into what he was trying to do. Neither Stevie nor Chris were shy about saying they didn't understand or even especially like some of his material.

In that same vein -- and touching on some earlier points in this thread -- that they would express such an opinion isn't something that I think proves they wanted him to fail. But if Lindsey were to reject a Stevie song for an album or say something in public about not liking one of her songs, it seems to be regarded, by some, as an act of great cruelty and a sign that he wanted her to go down the drain. He had mixed feelings from time to time for sure, but I don't think that one can, without a doubt, point to his Tusk songs as proof of bloodlust. What if sometimes he just didn't like her songs, no matter what they were about?

...and as far as his emotional lowpoint, wasn't that the Tour during which he walked over and kicked Stevie on stage in New Zealand?

The tour was a different thing than the making of the album. By the time they were on tour, Lindsey was having fingers pointed at him telling him the album's "failure" was all on him. Certainly heavy drinking and hard feelings don't mix well for anyone. But Lindsey speaks, to this day, of the making of Tusk as his ultimate high point in the band.

He seems pretty overstimulated and and on the verge of coming unglued in alot of the footage, shaking all over and gesturing wildly.

There again, I see some of that as an extension of the statement of Tusk generally. His stage presence, his movements on that whole tour were very much about embodying those songs, right down to the way he dressed, the eyeshadow, etc. Plus, I think even today, to a slightly lesser degree, Lindsey is still a spaz on stage.

I will always believe he was dealing with Stevie with most of that verbal bomb-tossing he was doing during that time.

Fair enough. I think I just see a lot of people, and I'm not saying you're one of them, but I've seen a lot of people dismiss Lindsey's Tusk material, not because they don't like the sound, but because they think it's "mean to Stevie." All I'm trying to say is that seeing those songs as "mean to Stevie" isn't the only way to view why he created them the way he did. It's good to remember that he did a few things in the band because they were important ambitions of his own that Stevie had nothing to do with.

Even he has said he couldn't get over her, and even though alot of folks don't believe that, I do, and that's the way I'll stay. There are also alot of poeple who DO believe it (WINK, WINK)!

Hehe. You're certainly right there. I don't believe that and won't try to change the minds of those who do. I didn't really think that was playing a big part in this discussion, but maybe I was naive in that belief.

[The Tower]

I thought Lindsey was much more "mean" to Stevie with the Rumours material than with Tusk.

With the exception of "I Know I'm Not Wrong" and "Not That Funny", I think Lindsey's Tusk material is the best he has ever done- though it probably ties with Out of the Cradle's material. "Save Me a Place" and "Walk a Thin Line" are INCREDIBLE!

[Hawkeye]

WHY did you just pick THOSE quptes. I said PLENTY of NICE thing about the great stevie. But you concentrated on the negative. i wanted to show my flexibility. I LOVE most of the stuff, but the quoted you pulled up are true too. It was a bad time in her life.

[tommer]

simply because those quotes were the CORE of all the 'strange' ideas you presented, i could have picked the 'Street Angel was going back to form' remark too.
i strongly believe that stevie's Tango tracks are PURE NICKS CLASSICS. Welcome To The Room...Sara & When I See You Again are two of her biggest masterpieces, those were the 2 songs that made me interested in stevie's art.
her voice on Behind The Mask was perfectly fine, i think her songs there are the album's saviors, have another listen to Love Is Dangerous and get the point.
When I See You Again ain't exactly her best track ever (and very badly mixed i must say) but it's far from being one of her worst songs, and is NOT 'toxic waste' by any means and not 'something someone threw up', and while we're on the subject, barfing is exactly what your posts made me wanna do.

[Sorceress]

[i]I've seen a lot of people dismiss Lindsey's Tusk material, not because they don't like the sound, but because they think it's "mean to Stevie." All I'm trying to say is that seeing those songs as "mean to Stevie" isn't the only way to view why he created them the way he did. It's good to remember that he did a few things in the band because they were important ambitions of his own that Stevie had nothing to do with.

I also continue to believe that there's plenty of nastiness in Lindsey's Tusk lyrics directed at Stevie, AND I also love the sound of his Tusk work!
People have been talking about listening to Stevie's solo stuff with the context of the era of the album in mind. In that same vein, I think Tusk is amazing emotional portrait of where each of the members were during that era. I don't mean to detract from the musical merit of the album, but the pain and anger in many of Lindsey's and Stevie's songs is so moving.

[CarneVaca]

Hmmm... is it possible that I can stay out of the line of fire for a while? I see hostilities flaring up elsewhere. Well, I need the break.

Les, you have made great points. I salute you. I think the "Lindsey was too mean to Stevie" notion through the years has crossed the boundaries of fairness. While he may have been more outspoken through his words and actions about the hostility between them, I believe that Stevie was far meaner. She probably tortured him psychologically in a major way. Of course, I don't excuse his physical actions.

And I'm probably going to get creamed for this, but here's what I think: When Lindsey talks these days, you can see that he has usually put a lot of thought into what he says and that is pretty sincere. He seems genuinely embarrassed and contrite about some of his past actions. However, when Stevie talks, which is a lot more often, no matter how hard she has worked at creating this motherly persona of loving everyone and everything, she still lets out enough nastiness to show what she really is about. I can't specifically recall any comments, but in the VH1 shows of recent years, whenever she talks about the old days you sense a real bitterness and anti-Lindsey vibe. She strikes me as a bitter person, while Lindsey comes across to me as a guy who realizes he's pulled some boners but has tried very hard to grow up, though not entirely successfully.

[Sorceress]

...whenever she talks about the old days you sense a real bitterness and anti-Lindsey vibe. She strikes me as a bitter person, while Lindsey comes across to me as a guy who realizes he's pulled some boners but has tried very hard to grow up, though not entirely successfully.

Here's a different way of looking at it: I read what you see as bitterness as regret mixed with a good dose of drama and self-centeredness. I don't think that means she's being anti-Lindsey. She does seem to have some unfinished business with him though. And while the overwhelming vibe Lindsey gives off is that he is regretful, he seems to have his own issues to work through--Stevie-related or not, I don't know.
At any rate, our interpretations are our own and will continue to be.

[sulamith]

Ok, Carne, I think I can roll up my sleeves and discuss this with you without any creaminess, although I may get slayed in the process, but here goes..........

I do agree that Lindsey has grown trmendously, and I have become a bigger fan of his in the process. As a young high school and college girl in the late seventies and early eighties I was not really a fan of Lindsey's at the time because i was all caught up in the whole Stevie persona. She was, and is, very appealing to young females, spreaking frm that point of view. I recall hearing about some of the stuff, like the infamous kicking incident, and seeing Linds on the Tusk tour, and even though I thought he was a cutie-pa-tootie, I thought his attitude stank. It was amplified when he left in 87, and not much was changed for me by OOTC, but that did cause me to respect him more as a musician. Now, I stayed that way, really until the Dance. Something in his eyes was so much softer, but still intense. I think you are right about him realizing his mistakes. Read my sig line, for instance. He gave alot of interviews during that time expressing sentiments that seemed he was sorry and taking responsibilty for his actions during the hating years. And, he's still a cutie-pa-tootie, to boot, so.... what's not to love?

Now, on to Stevie. This one is alot tougher to explain. I will agree that Stevie still says some pretty biting things these days. On Lindsey's BTM, she said things that.....how shall I put this....sort of alluded that Lindsey's current situation wasn't pure, and that hers and his was. She said, "I loved him before he was rich and famous, before the money. I loved him for all the right reasons." Then there was that comment about, "he's in love with his kids...." Now I realize VH1 can edit those things any way they want, and maybe they were just trying to play up the whole S&L drama, I don't know, but I do feel that Stevie is unhappy with her life these days. I know it is hard for her to see Lindsey married with children. That has helped him grow up alot, even she said so, and in her InStyle interview earlier this year, she said alot about having no regrets about never marrying and having children, and how she can't do both, be a rock star and be in a relationship. Because she never has had children, she said her songwriting has stayed, in a way, like that of a young girl, so it sounded like even SHE was admitting she hasn't matured beyond a certian point. I just think that where the rubber meets the road Stevie IS lonely, and she has said so much that she's not, that now she can't recant it. There's no back-pedaling at this point, because she is now too old to have children, so she says these things because she is trying to convince herself it really IS ok, because ar this point she has no choice. Music is her husband, you know....she made this bed, and she's gotta lay in it!
Now basic psychology will tell you people can only repress things for so long before little things start creeping out. God love her, she can't help it.
She does, however have a kind of quiet wisdom about her that has just come from living such an interesting life, full of many different experiences and struggles.
For me, it just makes me love her more!

[chiliD]

and how she can't do both, be a rock star and be in a relationship.

It's worked for a lot of other rock stars. I just think Stevie is too cynical & immature to HAVE a relationship, period. Even if she'd spent the last 30 years waiting tables as Clementine's, she probably wouldn't have had a long-term relationship either. She just doesn't seem the type (from hearing the way she's talked about her relationships) to want to WORK at keeping a relationship going...as soon as there's the slightest bit of trouble, she ends the relationship.

[sulamith]

Chili, Yes it has and is working for alot of people, and maybe seeing them making it work is pretty painful, but like I said, I think she feel she can't eat those words now.

Stevie and Lindsey are both well-known for their stubborness, hard-headedness, and overall inability to compromise on certain things.
Sometimes that's been an asset for them, sometimes a liability.
I just think that that's her story and she's gonna stick to it because she can't change it now anyway.

I was listening to this Eagles song "Victim of Love" which I think is about Stevie (and Lindsey, he's "that man"). I'm sure someone will tell me if they know it is not, but the part in it I love is

Victim of love, I see a broken heart
You got your stories to tell
Victim of love, It's such and easy part
And you know how to play it so well

Later on, he says

Victim of love, I see a broken heart
I could be wrong but I'm not
You're walking a wire of pain and desire
Looking for love in between

It sounds like 70's Stevie to me!
There's some other stuff in this song that I won't get into here, but even though I'm not a huge fan of Don, I have to give him credit for knowing the score.

I don't know that I would call her purely cynical and immature, but I do find it ironic that she has become a bit of a tragic and sad figure, just like she sang about when she was young and didn't have to end up this way.

Now, I'm not saying she has some terrible life, because she doesn't, but I think there is a part of her that s just incredibly broken about ending up alone. Now she feels she has to save face and talk about how wonderful everything is. I can hear little things in her comments that lead me to think she isn't particularly content with herself, that's all.

Oh, and Sorceress, I get that same "unfinshed business" vibe from them both as well.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by sulamith
On Lindsey's BTM, she said things that.....how shall I put this....sort of alluded that Lindsey's current situation wasn't pure, and that hers and his was.

See, I know that's how a lot of people took that comment, but that's not how I took it at all.

I really didn't see it as being directed at Kristen and/or Lindsey's relationship with Kristen.... it seemed to me that it was more directed at the women and relationships that came directly after Lindsey and Stevie broke up. The women Lindsey dated right after the band had hit it really big, and had a lot of wealth and fame. Which is, as many famous people have said, a period where you really don't know if your new friends and relationships like you for YOU, or for your fame.

Stevie tended to date men who were also famous, so I'm sure she was probably spared those particular feelings of insecurity... whereas the women Lindsey dated weren't famous. Carol Ann and Cheri, at least, both seem to have had aspirations of being famous, so there were probably times when Lindsey wondered if his girlfriends had the purest of motivations.

Also, and maybe this is the "Nicks Fan" in me coming out, but I don't really sense any cynicism when Stevie talks now.
Yes, it was definitely there in full-force during "The Klonopin Years," but now I think she just simply speaks very honestly about how she felt during the early years of her time in Fleetwood Mac.
One *can* be over something that happened in their life, while still being capable of talking about it, and conveying how it made them feel at the time.

And yes, there are a lot of other rock stars who can and have made romances work, but there are also a lot of others who haven't had that luck.

The Wilson sisters are a good example (especially since they're in Stevie's direct group of peers).
Ann Wilson hasn't had a long-term relationship since she and Mike Fisher broke up back in the 70s. While Nancy has been married to Cameron Crowe since 1982.

Even Christine, who *has* had a couple of long-term relationships, is single again... and arguably, her career hasn't been nearly as demanding as Stevie's.
Or, at the very least, her commitment to it hasn't been nearly as acute as Stevie's.

There seems to have been a time in her life, when marriage and motherhood really were things that Stevie hoped to have at some point... but to me, it seems like she has now made peace with not having those things. It also seems to me that she takes full responsibility for not having them.
She has said that she's basically an all or nothing person, and she wouldn't have been happy letting someone else raise her children. She has also said that motherhood would have probably been too distracting to her, to concentrate properly on her music.

She's never said that it *can't* be done, just that she doesn't think *she* could do it.


Wow, this thread definitely morphed into something completely different than I'm sure Christy ever intended!
*lol*


Johnny Stew

*** A little correction: Nancy Wilson and Cameron Crowe haven't been married since 1982... they were married in 1986.
They did, however, begin dating in 1982.***

[becca]

I'll stick to 'judge not' about people and relatiuonships I know I don't really know. I just know what is in the vinyl grooves and how I choose to interpret that. If the musician's want to talk about influences on them and how it effected the music that is of interest. It's between them really, I can't imagine taking sides or any of that, and heck maybe we are lucky we don't know these people so we can enjoy their work without blemishing it too much with personality flaws and stuff.

[sulamith]

I don't feel I am "judging" them. Just dicussing a speculating. That is a big part of enjoying the music for me.

I'll let everyone else speak for themselves.
So much has been written and taped about the Mac, that you gotta take it all as one big package, tied up with a big ol' vinyl bow.

Hey, that would be a "package deal", wouldn't it? LMAO!
I made a funny, teehee!

[wondergirl9847]

HAHA, it is TOTALLY different than I had intended because I was up late one night just this side of insanity at almost 1AM (I think) and wanted to count songs! LMAO!! It's turned into this very interesting discussion, indeed!

In the words of MY MAN: "Isn't that wierd?"