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  #751  
Old 11-08-2018, 02:13 PM
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Either way, I will always say Stevie got really screwed here personally even if she somehow did write it, she had so much better material from this era. Silver Springs is the most famous example, but that might not even be the best other fit. Think About It would’ve been a great compromise.

It's a great song. One of the songs that got me into them. That and Second Hand News.
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  #752  
Old 11-08-2018, 04:05 PM
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If Stevie didn't write I Don't Want to Know, then how would Mick and Lindsey putting it on Rumours in lieu of Silver Springs have made her feel better? Putting a Lindsey-penned song on in place of one written by Stevie would have made her angrier, actually, even if Lindsey agreed to let Stevie get credit for writing it. Stevie wanted songs actually written by her on the album.
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  #753  
Old 11-13-2018, 12:04 AM
NurseDJackson NurseDJackson is offline
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Originally Posted by bwboy View Post
If Stevie didn't write I Don't Want to Know, then how would Mick and Lindsey putting it on Rumours in lieu of Silver Springs have made her feel better? Putting a Lindsey-penned song on in place of one written by Stevie would have made her angrier, actually, even if Lindsey agreed to let Stevie get credit for writing it. Stevie wanted songs actually written by her on the album.
Yeah, it's not foolproof at all as a theory (and DownOnRodeo made some great counter points, too) but if MF is telling the truth, then when he told her that Silver Springs wasn't going to be on the album he also told her that IDWK was ready and waiting for her to put vocals on. That would imply that someone (LB?) was tasked with finding a SN composition that was short AND finished. From BN, other than Sorceror, she only had You Won't Forget Me/Telephone in a post-demo state....and...IDWK, but that song's never circulated in any forms other than 1/29/75 in Alabama and with LB singing/working out the arrangement with/for FM (I think I've heard 2 Rumours-era versions, the that's just LB and another that's the two of them and it sounds more finished than the LB only one).

So it could possibly have been a situation where "the boss" was like "we don't have the time/money/length on the LP to work on another one of your songs" and/or it could mean that Dealer and Planets were ruled out/refused (and perhaps others from that period, too).

So I imagine the only concession would be a guarantee of any royalty money from that song, which we know has always been important to her (and would be for anyone who's only getting 3 chances for $ per record—and it also depends on whether they had limits overall; she wasn't going to give up songwriting royalties opportunities*. I also imagine that any FM album that had publishing limits ("filler" songs) LB would be the one 'stuck' with those—as he also had his producer's fee and liked to experiment so those might have even been a chance to try out stuff (and he's on record in Destiny Rules talking about giving up royalty opportunities to make SYW)...

It's conceivable that she really didn't have a choice. And it's just odd that MF says it was recorded and ready for her vs. the TV doc line of "I pulled out this old song to replace it" (which is the extent to which I've seen it discussed).

*As per SN and royalties....it was Silver Springs that she donated the royalties to her mother? Maybe? And did I read once that Beautiful Child's royalties were gifted elsewhere, too?

And after Prince died we found out that he get 50% of Stand Back but he's not listed as a songwriter on it.

And this one I feel sort of proves both points. Edge of Seventeen, which was essentially built on/off/written over/inspired by The Police's Bring On The Night, only exists in working in-studio versions. Stand Back is the same, which she's said from day one was written over Little Red Corvette. (And just to be clear that I'm not trying to say she plagiarizes; it seems that she, like plenty of other musicians, are inspired by songs they hear, as in, those songs spark another song in their head, sometimes/often similar at some point or the sound is "lifted" in some way because it's the "I'm gonna take this part and do something else with it"...)

So the only songs of hers that don't seem to exist in demo form (rambling piano version, rambling drum machine version, the half-dozen or so two-chord strummers) are ones she has spoken about being written differently than her usual process (this would include I Can't Wait, which she says she was given the track and sang her topline and they recorded it really fast, and any of her Campbell etc. co-writes).

And to add to that, there's the issue of her stealing the Petty/Campbell track and recording the early Ooh My Love with FM before they told her to give it back (as many have pointed out, it's Runaway Trains)... AND THE ISSUE OF SAY YOU WILL, which is tough to untangle. The words/lyrics for Illume were written within a few days of 9/11, but the finished version is almost identical to Richard Ashcroft's New York (which could have been one of the above-mentioned situations, like one can see her chanting her Illume lyrics over that song, and the place its about is the same, so the song could have sparked hers)...WHY IS IT PRODUCED/ARRANGED LIKE THAT THOUGH? One would think they'd want to hide the similarities rather than risk plagiarism accusations—SN would be sensitive about that vis a vis Sara, which she clearly did write and did so before the woman who sued her said it was written— the question has always lingered as to whether that was SN's doing or LB's (and Say You Will is nearly identical to another track on Ashcroft's album).

Lots of sort of random points, but they are to bolster that a "slipperiness" (for lack of a better word) exists around songwriting credit with these people, but most specifically Nicks. Perhaps the long history of SN and LB using songs against each other goes beyond lyrics? Maybe IDWK is one of the roots of that LOL.

It would look bad for her to admit this in any way, but the idea that the others prepared one of her songs behind her back is more damning. It could be as simple as never wanting to talk about it because it really was the shortest/sweetest/easiest of her existing songs (and the one LB could prep with the band quickly) and they just said "this is the one. Sing over it." and that was that. So they don't talk about it because it's a really artless, business-y story.

It's just weird that it's so peppy for her. She herself has said that Angel was (one of) the only "happy" songs she wrote and even that only worked for part of the song.

I'm totally rambling; I didn't know I thought about this that much—LOL! I am somewhat convinced of a more "Occam's Razor" situation with the point about the lyrics/sound skewing towards early Nicks writing, but...

Last edited by NurseDJackson : 11-13-2018 at 12:07 AM.
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  #754  
Old 11-13-2018, 07:21 AM
bwboy bwboy is offline
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Great post, NurseDJjackson. You made a lot of interesting points. You could be right about the song writing credit, but I'm just not convinced. I tend to take things at face value, so if the credits say "written by Stevie Nicks," then that's how I take it. But then again, you made some compelling points. The only other thing I might add to the debate is, while other people have said the lyrics seem more like Lindsey, I think they're more like Stevie. Go Your Own Way is a bit of an angry song, and blames the other person for their break up. Never Going Back Again and Second Hand News are more of a pessimistic view ("someone has taken my place," and "I'm just second hand news.") IDWTK is more optimistic, like Dreams- "I don't want to stand between you and love, honey, I just want you to feel fine." As far as the point brought up by others as to why FM hasn't made the song a staple of their set list, I've often wondered that myself. But songwriting credit has never been a factor in my eyes.
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  #755  
Old 11-13-2018, 11:05 AM
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Can someone please explain how 'royalties' were generated for "Silver Springs" and "Beautiful Child" when both were album cuts and neither were radio singles?
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  #756  
Old 11-13-2018, 07:32 PM
NurseDJackson NurseDJackson is offline
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Originally Posted by petep9000 View Post
Can someone please explain how 'royalties' were generated for "Silver Springs" and "Beautiful Child" when both were album cuts and neither were radio singles?
Royalties would be generated if songs were issued as singles, used in commercials/movie, another artist covered them, etc. So there's earning potential even if a song isn't released. I think in the cases of the songs mentioned, that Nicks designated any potential money they would generate to whomever else. I have no idea how that'd work, like if there's registration with various entities (label, her own publishing, etc) and/or if payment comes from those places, etc...

I'm not at all sure, though, just a vague memory of reading that those songs were special to Nicks because she wanted others to get the money from them. I specifically remember reading once that Nicks was in part upset about Silver Springs because she called it her mother's song and said any $ from it would go to her. I could be misremembering...absolutely I could.
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  #757  
Old 11-13-2018, 09:08 PM
NurseDJackson NurseDJackson is offline
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Originally Posted by bwboy View Post
Great post, NurseDJjackson. You made a lot of interesting points. You could be right about the song writing credit, but I'm just not convinced. I tend to take things at face value, so if the credits say "written by Stevie Nicks," then that's how I take it. But then again, you made some compelling points. The only other thing I might add to the debate is, while other people have said the lyrics seem more like Lindsey, I think they're more like Stevie. Go Your Own Way is a bit of an angry song, and blames the other person for their break up. Never Going Back Again and Second Hand News are more of a pessimistic view ("someone has taken my place," and "I'm just second hand news.") IDWTK is more optimistic, like Dreams- "I don't want to stand between you and love, honey, I just want you to feel fine." As far as the point brought up by others as to why FM hasn't made the song a staple of their set list, I've often wondered that myself. But songwriting credit has never been a factor in my eyes.
100% agreed. Your comments and DownOnRodeo's had me thinking about the song more and it really is kind of split "down the line" in terms of seeming Nicks-like and Buckingham-esque, which makes total sense given that the song was written when they were a duo (beyond the obvious "so together all the time they're practically the same person" LOL)...I think it was DownOnRodeo who said "spiral-like" and, yeah, that opening riff is not unlike GDW in that way. it's a very The Mamas and The Papas vibe (which also makes sense), and I do think your take on the nuance and/or optimism is totally a SN quality.

It really just kind of hit me one day, I think the LB in-studio run through came on my itunes shuffle and I was like, "she didn't write this"...like just a "lightbulb" moment because that song is a total mystery. Never mentioned, perhaps the most conventional song she's written (even though at that point her songs tended more towards traditional in song structure)...

And if it were by some chance true I wouldn't see it as a negative mark on SN at all. Being screwed out of a song on an album, potential lost income, the hurt over the removal of Silver Springs—I'd say take that credit! Plus, even if it's as simple as being an SN/LB co-write, removing him from that helps with the whole "we never wrote together and I was jealous that CMcV and LB were writing together"... bc we all know they certainly did co-write Frozen Love.

Ultimately just an "unpopular opinion"...
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  #758  
Old 11-13-2018, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by NurseDJackson View Post
Plus, even if it's as simple as being an SN/LB co-write, removing him from that helps with the whole "we never wrote together and I was jealous that CMcV and LB were writing together"... bc we all know they certainly did co-write Frozen Love.
Another great post! Regarding your comment about Stevie's jealousy regarding Lindsey and Christine co-writing World Turning- at least I think that was the song, I'm going by memory here- even though she and Lindsey had co-written Frozen Love. I always assumed her jealousy may have stemmed from the fact that any song she and Lindsey might have written together was more of a give and take type, where maybe she wrote something, then he gave it back to her with a verse, and back and forth, whereas maybe with Lindsey and Christine, since they both played musical instruments, they were actually able to collaborate together on a song. Does that make sense? That would explain why Stevie expressed jealousy, because the process she and Lindsey used to co-write would therefore have inherently been different from the process Lindsey and Christine used. Just a thought.
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  #759  
Old 11-14-2018, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by petep9000 View Post
Can someone please explain how 'royalties' were generated for "Silver Springs" and "Beautiful Child" when both were album cuts and neither were radio singles?
Wouldn't there be royalties for the songs per the album sales as well? If Rumours is made up of 10 songs then part of the album sales money goes to the people who sang those 10 songs & part of the album sales money goes to the people who wrote those 10 songs. If a song is released as a single then the writer of that song has even more potential to make more money because now they are 1/10th of the album PLUS the extra sales from it being a single.
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  #760  
Old 11-14-2018, 08:17 AM
NurseDJackson NurseDJackson is offline
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Another great post! Regarding your comment about Stevie's jealousy regarding Lindsey and Christine co-writing World Turning- at least I think that was the song, I'm going by memory here- even though she and Lindsey had co-written Frozen Love. I always assumed her jealousy may have stemmed from the fact that any song she and Lindsey might have written together was more of a give and take type, where maybe she wrote something, then he gave it back to her with a verse, and back and forth, whereas maybe with Lindsey and Christine, since they both played musical instruments, they were actually able to collaborate together on a song. Does that make sense? That would explain why Stevie expressed jealousy, because the process she and Lindsey used to co-write would therefore have inherently been different from the process Lindsey and Christine used. Just a thought.
Yes, it makes total sense. In the IYD documentary she mentions that writing those songs with Dave Stewart was the first time she ever wrote with another person in that way. It's kind of hard to imagine, though, that all those years, all that time alone in the coffee plant, that they never sat down and wrote a song together like that. I guess she really would just hand something over for him to work on while she went out to her various jobs!
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  #761  
Old 11-14-2018, 01:52 PM
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Yes, it makes total sense. In the IYD documentary she mentions that writing those songs with Dave Stewart was the first time she ever wrote with another person in that way. It's kind of hard to imagine, though, that all those years, all that time alone in the coffee plant, that they never sat down and wrote a song together like that. I guess she really would just hand something over for him to work on while she went out to her various jobs!
You made me laugh so hard! Don't forget, besides working several jobs at one time so Lindsey could sleep in or play with his guitar, Stevie also volunteered at soup kitchens and worked on dismantling land mines!
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  #762  
Old 11-14-2018, 03:59 PM
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She went out and worked while he stayed home and practiced his guitar, so the story goes.

She should have sent him out to work while she stayed home and practiced her piano. With a little serious work, she may have been able to be a genuine instrumentalist in the studio on those early Fleetwood Mac albums—the others might not have dismissed her or joked at her expense, and the experience for her may have been a lot more positive. (The others were very cruel: you can see it in the video footage.)

I've been teaching young adult and adult piano basics since I went off to college in 1983. I've never encountered anyone except Stevie who made literally no progress at the keyboard across a span of forty years (from the 1978 piano demos like Rhiannon and Mistaken Love to the 2015 Rolling Stone video of Gypsy on piano). If I didn't have these Stevie Nicks recordings, I'd say such a complete lack of growth was physically impossible. I know she had no practical reason to acquire any proficiency on the piano (after all, her band already had a fine keyboardist), but the fact that she never did, despite playing for fifty years and writing many of her songs that way, is absolutely unbelievable. No student I have ever encountered made zero progress across such an expanse of time. Even the way she holds her hands and fingers is emblematic of rank beginner. She must deliberately do this . . . but why? Part of her mystique?
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  #763  
Old 11-14-2018, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by NurseDJackson View Post
Royalties would be generated if songs were issued as singles, used in commercials/movie, another artist covered them, etc. So there's earning potential even if a song isn't released. I think in the cases of the songs mentioned, that Nicks designated any potential money they would generate to whomever else. I have no idea how that'd work, like if there's registration with various entities (label, her own publishing, etc) and/or if payment comes from those places, etc...

I'm not at all sure, though, just a vague memory of reading that those songs were special to Nicks because she wanted others to get the money from them. I specifically remember reading once that Nicks was in part upset about Silver Springs because she called it her mother's song and said any $ from it would go to her. I could be misremembering...absolutely I could.
Royalties from SS were set up to go to her mother.
Royalties from Beautiful Child were to go to a UN child thing...

Here it is. It was for UNICEF, Year of the Child.

It was discussed on here in this thread:http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?t=40156
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  #764  
Old 11-14-2018, 05:06 PM
bombaysaffires bombaysaffires is offline
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You made me laugh so hard! Don't forget, besides working several jobs at one time so Lindsey could sleep in or play with his guitar, Stevie also volunteered at soup kitchens and worked on dismantling land mines!
He actually had a job doing telemarketing. I've got him on a radio interview on audio cassette somewhere in my archives talking about it. It was basically a scam-- he was selling people advertising space in some directory, and he talked about how he'd have to get to work really early in the morning because he was on the west coast and calling businesses back on the east coast. And he'd say "Do you want to renew your ad?" and people would say ok yeah if we did it last year we'll do it again. But, he said, the people he called had NOT run an ad the previous year and so they were scamming them. And this offended his sensibilities and he could only take it for like a few days or a week or something and had to quit.

So this is probably where Stevie's longstanding thing about "You can't expect Lindsey to do a real job"....which of course totally ignores the fact that she took a job as a dental assistant and quit after a day because she had to stand leaning forward.

Also, if you find interviews with Keith Olsen, he talks about how badly she cleaned his house. She of course will insist otherwise.
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Old 11-14-2018, 06:12 PM
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So this is probably where Stevie's longstanding thing about "You can't expect Lindsey to do a real job"....which of course totally ignores the fact that she took a job as a dental assistant and quit after a day because she had to stand leaning forward.
Well, in fairness to Stevie, it is hard to stand leaning forward while reading aloud to the blind AND knitting sweaters for cold children all at the same time
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