1992 Plight of Going Solo

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

So four million double records world wide is a flop. Are you actually arguing that?

To me, selling 2000 albums worldwide is not a flop. For Lindsey, who often laughed at the irony of Warner Bros. bonuses flying out the window, when the album had still sold millions, Tusk was not a flop. But for the industry and the expectations that were held for Fleetwood Mac in 1979, yes Tusk was certainly a flop. That's neither a shocking statement or a novel one. The "failure" of Tusk is a part of FM's history and it's a failure which Lindsey felt keenly when Law and Order was being made. Back then, he did not have the luxury or prescience of knowing that Tusk would someday be lauded as a critical success.

Back then, no one who was trying to recreate or further the experimental sound of Tusk was doing it because they thought it would make them money or get the album a slot on Casey Kasem's countdown. From his Tusk experiene, Lindsey knew that Law and Order was not likely to be a blockbuster. He could have made it more commercial if he wanted. He could have made more songs in the Trouble mode, but he decided not to.


Michele

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by michelej1

. . . But for the industry and the expectations that were held for Fleetwood Mac in 1979, yes Tusk was certainly a flop. That's neither a shocking statement or a novel one . . . .

I specifically was not not talking about the industry standard. I specifically mentioned a "rational standard." Selling four million double records worldwide is not a flop by a rational standard and it means four million people (two miilion here) got more exposure to him from the record and then hundreds of thousands more on the 18 month tour. That is quite wave to ride on into your solo record a year or so later That wave certainly had to have helped him sell L&O and Trouble, which were successful, but not blockbusters.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I specifically was not not talking about the industry standard. I specifically mentioned a "rational standard." Selling four million double records worldwide is not a flop by a rational standard and it means four million people (two miilion here) got more exposure to him from the record and then hundreds of thousands more on the 18 month tour. That is quite wave to ride on into your solo record a year or so later That wave certainly had to have helped him sell L&O and Trouble, which were successful, but not blockbusters.

There is no definition for "rational" standard. No record that sounds good is a failure to a reasonable person. No record with artistic merit is a failure by a rational standard. I think that after Rumours made him money, Lindsey sought creative fulfillment with his next record, not more fame and fortune and I think Tusk's sound, followed by its commercial failure proves that, as does the fact that he went for more of Tusk and less of Rumours in his first solo album.

Did Tusk help his solo career? I doubt it. But even if it did, when he took those 13 months to make Tusk, I doubt he was even thinking of a solo career yet. That didn't come into his head until after he became alienated from his bandmates following Tusk. So, it cannot be said he went into Tusk to launch a solo career that hadn't materialized yet. He didn't create Tusk as a wave to ride into his solo career. Rumours and Trouble are waves. Tusk and the bulk of Law and Order are more like undertow, the current flowing beneath the surface moving somewhere beyond Billboard.

Michele

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by michelej1

There is no definition for "rational" standard. No record that sounds good is a failure to a reasonable person. No record with artistic merit is a failure by a rational standard.

Quit changing the subject I agree Tusk was a success in an artistic regard to LB. I am not and we were not talking about that. I am talking about the exposure selling four million records world wide and a successful tour got him. If you don't think he got significant exposure from all of that which helped him release his solo record to a wider audience and success a year later - so be it.

Originally Posted by michelej1

. . . That didn't come into his head until after he became alienated from his bandmates following Tusk. So, it cannot be said he went into Tusk to launch a solo career that hadn't materialized yet . . . .

I kind of doubt that he was not working on solo songs or at least songs away from FM. After all, I believe he came into the Tusk sessions with competed songs and he had worked with other artists outside of FM a la Magnet and Steel So, I think that at some point either right before or early into the Tusk sessions, he began contempating a solo record. But, that is just my speculation. And, I certainly do not think he created Tusk as a means to bolster his solo record. I do not think I said that. I do think, however, that the success of the Tusk era helped propel L&O. Again, to me that is a no brainer. I think he reasserted this method on GI with less success. Then, he morphed the next solo record into TITN, which was hugely successful by any standard. After that, he never could crank out a record fast enough to capitalize on the wave of FM popularity, save for perhaps UTS, which was not really as accessible as his last five solo records.

[shackin'up]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

But, your only point is you hate her. So be it.

Now you take that back immediately. You witnessed me when I was there in the US of F*cking A just to see her perform with Lindsey. I would NEVER say you hate LB although you have NOT once, EVER in our discussions defended him if it took a small offer for your muse.

I can play games over here, but this is just unbelievably rude, and only to axe me out of the discussion. And I'm biting my tongue over here. *di*t.

She had three or four songs per album. Just like the other two.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Quit changing the subject I agree Tusk was a success in an artistic regard to LB. I am not and we were not talking about that. I am talking about the exposure selling four million records world wide and a successful tour got him. If you don't think he got significant exposure from all of that which helped him release his solo record to a wider audience and success a year later - so be it.

How am I changing the subject when I respond directly to the statements you make? You were talking about exactly that, which is why you said about 50 times that Tusk was a huge success and then belatedly added "by a rational standard."

I don't think Tusk helped him release a solo record. I don't think Tusk added to his public cache more than Rumours did. Rumours is what gave him entree into everything else and Law and Order was more like the less successful Tusk than it was Rumours. Since he never released a solo album as close to an FM venture after Tusk, I don't see him having repeated a pattern at all.

Your point was that Lindsey uses FM to launch his solo albums, when most of the time that he's been in FM he hasn't even had a solo album ready to launch. If you're saying that he's only been in FM so that he can get the publicity needed so the record buyers will be ready for him 2 - 5 years later when he does have a solo album to launch -- well . . . ok. That's what I'd call premature launching and I think he ought to see a doctor about it.

Anyway, for the first time, he does have a solo album now (at least he says he does), while he simultaneously has the possibility of working with FM before him as well. If he uses the FM/Sheryl Crow machine to promote that solo album while he's in FM, I'll be happy. I don't think he's ever done that before, while you think he's always been doing it. Thus, your point!

Michele

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by shackin'up

Now you take that back immediately. You witnessed me when I was there in the US of F*cking A just to see her perform with Lindsey. I would NEVER say you hate LB although you have NOT once, EVER in our discussions defended him if it took a small offer for your muse.

I can play games over here, but this is just unbelievably rude, and only to axe me out of the discussion. And I'm biting my tongue over here. *di*t.

She had three or four songs per album. Just like the other two.

Yes, you were here, but I notice you haven't been back for a solo Nicks concert I thought that she was playing with FM on SYW was ancillary to seeing Buckingham for you.

In any event, if you don't hate her, so be it.

As for defending him, I most certainly have. Though I think it was an awful thing to do to your friends, I understood why he left before the TITN tour. I also routinely say his is very talented, I like his work, and were it not for him in the beginning and mostly thereafter, La Nicks's songs would likely have had less appeal -- with her it all depends on the producer and others, like Iovine, have done her justice as well.

As for being rude, it was not intentional. I rather thought I was agreeig with you as you lately hae made comments like Stevie should stay away from FM, etc. So, sorry if I misread that.

As for the three or four soings, I agree and it was not enough her (too much writing) or for him (wanted an outlet for his other more experimental work) or CM (too much material) So, I think they all released solo records for the just about the same reasons and to call her out for it and not them is wrong

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by michelej1

How am I changing the subject when I respond directly to the statements you make? You were talking about exactly that, which is why you said about 50 times that Tusk was a huge success and then belatedly added "by a rational standard."

It was a clarification because I did not think you would judge it sales wise against Rumours. And, I believe it was in the first response, not the 50th - post number 19 to be exact - your comment was in post 18 and in response to my initial comment in post 15 about Tusk being a "highly popular record" - four million double records sold world wide and a hugely attended 18 month world tour and all

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Yes, you were here, but I notice you haven't been back for a solo Nicks concert :

But Jason, you wouldn't have flown to LB's Soundstage if Stevie was not on the ticket, would you?

Now, I see the guys equally. Well, I see Stevie more, only because she's on tour more. I never saw Chris on tour at all, but it's not because I don't love her very much. I just was seeing the Jacksons 11 times in 1984 and I . . . dropped the ball.

Michele

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by michelej1

But Jason, you wouldn't have flown to LB's Soundstage if Stevie was not on the ticket, would you?

Now, I see the guys equally. Well, I see Stevie more, only because she's on tour more. I never saw Chris on tour at all, but it's not because I don't love her very much. I just was seeing the Jacksons 11 times in 1984 and I . . . dropped the ball.

Michele

Yes, I would have. In fact, I made the reservations before I knew for sure that she would be there. That she was there was a boon to me to be sure. But, I truly enjoyed the whole show, esp. Save Me a Place and Trouble. I posted a review about somewhere where I go off on how talented he is. In fact, gldstwmn, Sulamith, and I sat there for awhile and marveled at his guitars after the show as we were able to approach them. I also walked up to him and spoke with him after a show.

As for Gerald and I, he is my friend and I think he will remain so no matter our differences here.

[David]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

He likely was told not to do it again because they wanted another 15 + million record a la Rumours. That they did not get that does not negate the fact that Tusk sold well by a rational standard and the resulting tour ( ) sold very well and played to hundreds of thousands of people.

The weird thing about that tour is that if you read reviews from some of the cities on the first leg, some empty seats & non-sellouts are mentioned. Yet the tour as a whole was Billboard's most lucrative tour of the year for arenas (around 18,000). In some of the big cities, like Los Angeles, most nights were sellouts, including just about all seven performances in L.A., whereas in other cities like Salt Lake City, the press said shows weren't always selling out.

As to the second point, I often wonder about L&O sounding differently. He did not have much time, esp. for him, after Tusk to get it ready, which makes me think he recorded much of it during Tusk (record and tour) and likely before.

I doubt it. I think it was practically all tracked after the tour. The songs may have been toyed with on tape before that, but the actual tracking was new at the time. I don't think Le Buckingham decided to make a solo album until after the band tour was over. He spoke to Blair Jackson of BAM magazine around the holidays -- around the time of Fleetwood Mac Live -- & told her he'd consider putting out a solo album only if he had enough good material, & that he wasn't really chomping at the bit to do so.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by David

. . . I doubt it. I think it was practically all tracked after the tour. The songs may have been toyed with on tape before that, but the actual tracking was new at the time. I don't think Le Buckingham decided to make a solo album until after the band tour was over. He spoke to Blair Jackson of BAM magazine around the holidays -- around the time of Fleetwood Mac Live -- & told her he'd consider putting out a solo album only if he had enough good material, & that he wasn't really chomping at the bit to do so.

Then that is, as they say, that - thanks for the 411

[rubytuesday]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Yes, you were here, but I notice you haven't been back for a solo Nicks concert I thought that she was playing with FM on SYW was ancillary to seeing Buckingham for you.

Whoa, if you don't fly around the world to see herthen your fandom is questioned?

[David]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Then that is, as they say, that - thanks for the 411

Well, now, hold on a minute, Le Strand. Let's discuss this. You should never take my word for anything at the outset ipso facto beano because as I have told you, fully 18 percent of everything I say is completely concocted out of my febrile brain & plundering pirate persona. I poop puns. I natter neologisms. I co-op coinages. I morph monologues into sallies of sesquipedalian syllepses. I am the James Joyce of the Ledge.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by rubytuesday

Whoa, if you don't fly around the world to see herthen your fandom is questioned?

Exactly