A Religious Leader Who Isn't An Idiot

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by The Catdancer

Very good points

Oh piss - and I didn't mean to imply that any woman who has gone through the change is "elderly"

I can feel my mom slapping me across the head already

[Jason T.]

Originally Posted by DrummerDeanna

...erm on second though perhaps I should just veer on over to Episcopal land (which actually is something I've considered).

You know -- it doesn't seem like that bad of an idea. Granted, I'm not sure if I'm going to let Catholicism get rid of me that easily.

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by Jason T.

You know -- it doesn't seem like that bad of an idea. Granted, I'm not sure if I'm going to let Catholicism get rid of me that easily.

Well I do have the "Catholic Guilt" beating me down every second of my life - I'm not sure I can take leaving. Damn Catholic Guilt.

[Sahara]

Right, clearly I'm just upsetting people so I'm going to back out of this.

No offense intended to anyone.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Sahara

Right, clearly I'm just upsetting people so I'm going to back out of this.

No offense intended to anyone.

I think, with respect, it is your unwillingness to discuss or concede that the current version of The Bible, really does nothing to address homosexuality as it is known today. I mean you certainly can think what you want about The Bible, but to ignore the historical context in which it is set and which shaped its formation is not really accurate.

Just my $0.02

[carrie721]

In addition to forgetting the historical context in which these tracts were written, many also forget that the bibles we have today are not the original texts written by matthew, mark, etc, and whoever wrote the books of the old testament (can you tell i'm not a bible scholar?? ). We have documents that have been edited and rewritten by men in power over the last 2000 years to fit their needs. So even if you believe God was speaking through the authors of these books, they have been tampered with, and not by God; if he were going to hand down his words to the people, wouldn't he get it right the first time? Many of the "laws" that God supposedly handed down have been accepted by many as necessary at the time, but obsolete now. An example of this is kosher food rules in the Jewish faith. Many acknowledge now that these were enacted to encourage safe & healthy eating practices because there were no means of refrigeration or preservation of food ... but no one's really going to hell if he/she drinks milk while eating meat, and it's certainly not an "abomination."

On another note. Homophobia doesn't bother me; it's an irrational fear, and most people who express it usually have homosexual tendencies themselves. What bothers me is when people use false logic and "God's word" to tell me that my actions are an abomination.

It's interesting that you're willing to start this but are backing out now.

[strandinthewind]

The people who believe The Bible to be literal believe that although The Bible has been changed by mankind over time, God guided those changes, etc. I think that is incorrect and greed and power guided many of those changes - in fact, history mostly supports me on that.

In the end, I think The Bible is a womnderful book and its main message has inspired me so many times. For example, I do not, however, get caught up in whether Noah really had an ark that could house two of all six million or so species. I focus on the point of the story, which is God so loved mankind that He wanted to wash the sin in the world away and allow man a fresh start. To know someone loves me like that inspires me.

[carrie721]

^^ But even by that logic ... why didn't he get it right the first time? In addition to greed and power, I'd add fear, too.

You're right that the magic of the bible is its allegory, not its literal meaning, and that its most important message is LOVE, not whether gays are going to hell. Not enough people realize this, though.

[strandinthewind]

^^^

Interestingly, along the lines of literal translation - Genesis has two creation stories, to wit (KJV) (emphasis supplied)

Genesis (KJV)

1.

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. [the first creation - the woman is rumored to be Lilith, whose story is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith )
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

2.

1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. [This is the second creation story]
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia. 14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
___________________________________________________________

So, the point is it matters not if Adam and Eve existed - it matters only that God so loved mankind that He gave it the world - and to me, it does not matter if he used nature and evolution to fulfill that gift.

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

^^^

So, the point is it matters not if Adam and Eve existed - it matters only that God so loved mankind that He gave it the world - and to me, it does not matter if he used nature and evolution to fulfill that gift.

Actually, it looks like you missed the realpoint which is God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve

Seriously though, if one more person says that and actually means it - I may have to be committed due to total and complete nervous breakdown.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by DrummerDeanna

Actually, it looks like you missed the realpoint which is God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve

Waakkka Waaakkkka Waakkka

[carrie721]

Awww, strandy, what'd I tell you about letting others making my arguments for me?

I knew there were many inconsistencies in the Bible, but I never knew about this one.

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by DrummerDeanna

Actually, it looks like you missed the realpoint which is God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve

Seriously though, if one more person says that and actually means it - I may have to be committed due to total and complete nervous breakdown.

thanks for the laugh!

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by carrie721

Awww, strandy, what'd I tell you about letting others making my arguments for me?

I knew there were many inconsistencies in the Bible, but I never knew about this one.

I have this brain where completely irrelevant and non-revenue generating stuff just sticks in it

[amber]

Originally Posted by Amber

Or if it's something like "God wants us to procreate, and homosexuals don't have children, so if you are homosexual you aren't having children, therefore don't love god."

Originally Posted by Amber

If the explanation is anything but those two things, I'm very interested.

Originally Posted by Sahara

Basically this is what it comes down to: life is a gift from God. Life is sacred, the purpose of sex is to create life, therefore sex is sacred also. A sacred bond between man and woman, as God intended it to be. Sex is for procreation, not recreation. The purpose of sex is to create life and therefore anything which gets in the way of that gift of life (eg contraception -- no, I'm not getting into a debate on that -- or homosexuality) is defying the will of God.

I explicitly stated I only wanted to hear the explanation if it wasn't one of two things.
You chose one of those two things anyway. What does god say about reading more carefully in order to spare others immense brain-blowing-a-fuse pain and cognitive dissonance?