The Problem with "Time"

[chriskisn]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

But on a perfectly objective level, there is no way I would have ever subjected myself to this tediously uninteresting music if they didn't slap the ol' "Fleetwood Mac" label onto it.

That is probably what the Peter Green and Bob Welch fans said in 1975

[chiliD]

Just because Rumours sold 25 million doesn't mean it was the best MUSIC that Fleetwood Mac ever produced. If so, then wtf happened with Tusk, Mirage etc...same 5 people, same 3 writers...Rumours was a fluke, a God damned fluke...and a scourge put upon us Fleetwood Mac fans from prior to its release. I f***ing HATE Rumours with the same passion that apparently many FMac fans **** upon Time. I'd love to have some sort of FlashForward machine, put everyone to sleep for 2:17 and erase Rumours and the whole Rumours phenomenon from everyone's memory & reality...THEN we'll see what Fleetwood Mac albums people gravitate to.

Originally Posted by chriskisn

That is probably what the Peter Green and Bob Welch fans said in 1975

A-friggin'-MEN!!!!

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by chiliD

Just because Rumours sold 25 million doesn't mean it was the best MUSIC that Fleetwood Mac ever produced. If so, then wtf happened with Tusk, Mirage etc...same 5 people, same 3 writers...Rumours was a fluke, a God damned fluke...and a scourge put upon us Fleetwood Mac fans from prior to its release. I f***ing HATE Rumours with the same passion that apparently many FMac fans **** upon Time. I'd love to have some sort of FlashForward machine, put everyone to sleep for 2:17 and erase Rumours and the whole Rumours phenomenon from everyone's memory & reality...THEN we'll see what Fleetwood Mac albums people gravitate to.




A-friggin'-MEN!!!!

Well, I would consider myself one of those people who actually despised Rumours when it first came out (too blatantly "pop" for my eight-year-old ears). I didn't enter the fold until after Bella Donna, so I backed into Rumours retroactively after a long time of not caring for it at all. And admittedly, save for "The Chain" and Christine's songs, I still don't much care for it today, even though I can appreciate it as an incredibly solid piece of work overall. So not being a huge fan of Rumours, I still think Time blows chunky soup by any measure (again, with the exception of Christine's songs). There are non-BN albums that I adore- Future Games, Mystery to Me, Bare Trees, Then Play On, so I don't think it's fair to say that BN fans will only like BN-in-FM albums.

Regarding the issue of promotion, I do agree that Time was not promoted at all. Even I, as a diehard fan for the longest time, didn't know it even existed until six months after it was released, when I found it in the cut-out bin at a record show. I honestly thought it was a bootleg at first! Way to go, WB! But I honestly don't blame them- why throw good money after bad trying to promote this... thing?

[TrueFaith77]

Originally Posted by sjpdg

Any opinions on "These Strange Times" from Mick?

Personally, I find it interesting to listen to. Sort of a personal retrospective of his career with FM up to that time. Also seems to explore faith as well. Loss of faith, faith regained.

Certainly not a great song that should go down in history or anything. I'm not that big a fan of it! I just think it's an interesting piece of material and am curious to see what others think of it.

Any other thoughts?

I love "These Strange Times." It just SOUNDS so gooood. And the choir vocals in the background. Beautiful. I think it's so moving; Mick's appraisal of his life also provides an emotional history shared in many ways by us Fleetwood Mac fans: new or old. And it comes directly from the SOUND of Fleetwood Mac, the man who gave the band its name, and the man who held it together. And, as the song reveals, he did it out of LOVE.

ETA: Fortunately, Rumours (my all-time favorite album) also provided for me an entrance into this history -- as it did for many others. I may disagree with chiliD regarding that album's value as art and as a phenomenon, but I appreciate his passionate defenses of Time and his perspective on Fleetwood Mac as a fan from the beginning.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by chriskisn

Maybe...25 million (or so) copies of Rumours sold, 35,000 (or so) copies of Time sold. I think that would mean most of the Rumours era fans wouldn't touch it with a 10ft pole...

I don't know where you're getting that 35,000 figure from. If I was just going to guess, I'd say about 90% of all Time albums were sold to people looking for the Rumours sound. Who else do you think was buying that album? A lot of Rumours fans bypassed it, but the people who purchased it were probably Rumours fans. So, it wouldn't have done as well as it did without them. I certainly wouldn't have listened to Nothing Without You as often as I did, if I didn't think Lindsey was on it.

I bought Time deliberately knowing the players, but I also got a couple of copies from Columbia House for a penny or something. It was featured in their record club and I'm pretty sure the people who ordered it from there didn't realize Time was a different line up than the Rumours famous.

I think BTM was a much better album than Time and there's nothing about the BTM line up that I liked better than the Time line up. Stevie's presence on BTM was not a factor for me.

Regarding Bekka's voice, yes she can sing, but her singing style may not be what people like. I continue to love Stevie's GDW in concert. I didn't mind Bekka's, but if Bekka had done Dreams, I probably would have been thrilled, just because Stevie's had gotten so boring.

My problem with the tour was the nostalgia circuit thing. I found it degrading. I'd never go to a show like that of my own free will. I had missed them at the House of Blues, so I went to Universal the following year and I'm not sure who the other audience members were there to see (REO speedwagon?), but they really weren't into FM as far as I could see and that excitement and connection you get when the band is fueled by the audience was absent.

Originally Posted by chiliD

Just because Rumours sold 25 million doesn't mean it was the best MUSIC that Fleetwood Mac ever produced.

Who said it did? But selling that many Rumours albums also means that it sold a lot of albums in addition to Rumours. It sold all those Dance albums and the SYW albums, etc.

I understand what you mean about how Rumours ruined the band and acknowledge that you're right that they have been touring on it ever since. However, it's a good album. Weren't you telling people that 32 years ago?

I don't think it was a fluke. I'm not really into it, simply because it was so popular. Even today, it's on the radio so much. So, I ignore it, but I don't think there's anything wrong with it at all and I certainly see why it sold as many records as it did.

Michele

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by TrueFaith77

I love "These Strange Times." It just SOUNDS so gooood. And the choir vocals in the background. Beautiful. I think it's so moving; Mick's appraisal of his life also provides an emotional history shared in many ways by us Fleetwood Mac fans: new or old. And it comes directly from the SOUND of Fleetwood Mac, the man who gave the band its name, and the man who held it together. And, as the song reveals, he did it out of LOVE.

I don't like it as an album track, but I like the references in it. I like the little puzzle.

Michele

[TrueFaith77]

Originally Posted by michelej1

I don't like it as an album track, but I like the references in it. I like the little puzzle.

Michele

I think it's a perfect album closer -- and it holds together the disparate elements of the album. It's what makes Time, ultimately, cohesive.

[holidayroad]

I've been thinking about this thread a lot. I really don't think that, just because someone did not love Time as a body of work,that they are against a Fleetwood Mac w/o Lindsey and Stevie. I like a lot of members like Danny Kirwan and Bob Welch who were there before Lindsey&Stevie. I like Billy Burnette a lot too. I bought Time because I felt I should give it a chance and also to support my favorite band. It has it's good moments. I liked Behind the Mask a lot better, not because of Stevie, but mostly because of Christine and Billy's songs together. I felt that in Time, Bekka and Billy were already singing as if they were a seperate duo. that worked later,but not when you're trying to make a group effort. I also noticed in this thread people saying they wish Rumours had never existed. I have at times felt that way. It's a great album, but not so amazing that it should be held as the high standard of what Fleetwood Mac can accomplish.I agree that Rumours was necesssary in the fact that it made Fleetwood Mac a household name, but I also feel that Rumours has held Fleetwood Mac back in terms of what they can do that will be seen as "commercially successful."

[David]

Originally Posted by TrueFaith77

I love "These Strange Times." It just SOUNDS so gooood. And the choir vocals in the background. Beautiful. I think it's so moving; Mick's appraisal of his life also provides an emotional history shared in many ways by us Fleetwood Mac fans: new or old.

It's a beautiful experience, that track. It makes me sad when I listen to it, but I listen to it on repeat when I'm in that band nostalgia mood. The track makes me love Mick as a person. I empathize with him, & keenly feel his wistfulness & sadness & also his hope & his fond memories.

And it comes directly from the SOUND of Fleetwood Mac, the man who gave the band its name, and the man who held it together. And, as the song reveals, he did it out of LOVE.

Yes, indeed. And musically of course it employs the four voicings of the Bach Fugue 17 in Ab from the WTC. Mick isn't afraid to bring old art & new art together in moving panoply.

[chiliD]

Sure, Time isn't the "cohesive" album it could've been. The alternate running order I painstakingly culled helps that a bit (see below)...but, there's also the history of how Time came about that added to the disjointedness that it became.

(Sorry to be redundant, but there still a few people who don't know this)

The original album that Fleetwood Mac submitted to the record company was titled Another Link In The Chain and was scheduled to be released in either November or December 1994 (in time for the Christmas rush). It was done by the then TOURING Fleetwood Mac band (no Christine McVie)...all Billy, Bekka & Dave tunes. It wasn't until the record company used a "small print" clause in FMac's contract with something about CONTRACTUALLY Christine McVie had to be involved, that they shelved the original album and went back in the studio to add Christine's tunes and revamp the album that was released in October 1995 that we now know as Time.

(WB did a similar thing with Eric Clapton's 1985 album Behind The Sun...rejecting it and making Clapton record a number of new, record company supplied, songs, before they would ok its release...one of which was the song "Something's Happening" with one Lindsey Buckingham on acoustic guitar)

My "alternate" Time running order:

I DO
TALKIN' TO MY HEART
I WONDER WHY
WINDS OF CHANGE
SOONER OR LATER
DREAMING THE DREAM

NIGHTS IN ESTORIL
NOTHING WITHOUT YOU
BLOW BY BLOW
I GOT IT IN FOR YOU
HOLLYWOOD (SOME OTHER KIND OF TOWN)
THESE STRANGE TIMES
ALL OVER AGAIN

[TrueFaith77]

Originally Posted by chiliD

The original album that Fleetwood Mac submitted to the record company was titled Another Link In The Chain and was scheduled to be released in either November or December 1994 (in time for the Christmas rush). It was done by the then TOURING Fleetwood Mac band (no Christine McVie)...all Billy, Bekka & Dave tunes. It wasn't until the record company used a "small print" clause in FMac's contract with something about CONTRACTUALLY Christine McVie had to be involved, that they shelved the original album and went back in the studio to add Christine's tunes and revamp the album that was released in October 1995 that we now know as Time.

I know this has been asked before, but does anyone know the original tracklist of Another Link? We'll probably never get to hear it -- though it'd be a fascinating two-disc rerelease if/when the Mac catalogue ever gets the full treatment. Sometimes these unreleased, supressed albums do eventually see the light of day (such as Associates' Glamour Chase).

For visual contrast, here is the actual Time tracklist (from wiki):

1. "Talkin' to My Heart" (Billy Burnette, Deborah Allen, Rafe VanHoy) – 4:54
2. "Hollywood (Some Other Kind of Town)" (Christine McVie, Eddy Quintela) – 5:43
3. "Blow by Blow" (Dave Mason, John Cesario, Mark Holden) – 4:24
4. "Winds of Change" (Kit Hain) – 4:26
5. "I Do" (C. McVie, Quintela) – 4:25
6. "Nothing Without You" (Delaney Bramlett, Doug Gilmore, Bekka Bramlett) – 3:06
7. "Dreamin' the Dream" (B. Bramlett, Burnette) – 3:43
8. "Sooner or Later" (C. McVie, Quintela) – 5:40
9. "I Wonder Why" (Dave Mason, Frankie Previte, Tom Fuler) – 4:28
10. "Nights in Estoril" (C. McVie, Quintela) – 4:45
11. "I Got It in for You" (Burnette, Deborah Allen) – 4:08
12. "All Over Again" (C. McVie, Quintela) – 3:32
13. "These Strange Times" (Mick Fleetwood, Ray Kennedy) – 7:04

[Matthew]

And my Time would be something like this

1. Blue Denim
2. Talkin´ To My Heart
3. Sooner Or Later
4. Honey Love
5. Love Is Like A River
6. Walk Another Mile
7. Rose Garden
8. Nights In Estoril
9. Intuition
10. Poor Souls In Love
11. Street Angel
12. All Over Again

[michelej1]

And part of the tour was called "Another Link in the Chain" too. I can remember that publicity vaguely.

Michele

[HejiraNYC]

I think it's ridiculous to wish that the Rumours phenomenon had never occurred, because if it wasn't for Rumours...

...there would be no Tusk (as a reaction to Rumours)

...with all of the infighting and drama, the band would have split up if there wasn't a major payday involved.

...all the members would have remained in relative obscurity and solo record deals would have been unlikely.

...FM would have faded into obscurity like many of their 70's contemporaries like America, Kansas, Three Dog Night, Foghat, Firefall, etc.

Yes, whether we like it or not Rumours is FM's raison d'etre today. It established a level of critical superstardom that has allowed them to stay immensely popular despite the dearth of new material. Yes, I am bored by the repetition... but I am also infinitely grateful that they are still around doing what they do so well. But you certainly cannot fault their work ethic- between solo and band projects the FM fan always has something to look forward to.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

I think it's ridiculous to wish that the Rumours phenomenon had never occurred, because if it wasn't for Rumours...

...there would be no Tusk (as a reaction to Rumours)

Interesting scenario.

Well, let's say that there was a Rumours without the phenomenon. It was hailed as a good album, but it didn't sell mad crazy. Let's say that it would have sold a million or 2 more than the White Album did. I think that would have been enough to keep the ball rolling a little.

After all, the guys were going to break up romantically anyway and the White album held them together a little longer. The White album gave them more money than they had ever had before. They liked that. So, a non-astronomical, but successful Rumours might also have given them enough incentive to, ah, keep on trucking. They would still have had all the emotional problems, but they also would still want to be successful and maintain their new riches, so I don't know if they would have been that quick to walk away from the band.

So, if they kept having Top 10 hits, I think the public would have remained interested in them through the eighties, without getting as psychotic as it did. Maybe they would have made even more albums, so they would have something to tour on.

It was funny to me in the pre-Rumours interviews Lindsey was saying that Rhiannon was a hit they didn't expect and they just keep on having singles off of the album. Stevie said, if that's the case, then they could take even longer to release the new album, if the singles from the first album were still popular.

If Rumours had been less popular, I agree with you we wouldn't have gotten Tusk in reaction. I think Lindsey would still have wanted to make Tusk, but the rest of the band wouldn't have had as much reason to indulge him as the Rumours success gave him. Maybe we wouldn't even have gotten Tango, but we might have gotten 4 Mirage-type albums instead. More albums and more touring, before they broke up gradually at the end of the eighties and faded away because the public lost interest -- not because of some big, Tango fight.

Oh well. I'm happy with how it all happened. I'm proud that they reached the stratosphere, even if it left them Leashed for ever after.

Michele