Interesting read

[snoot]

Originally Posted by Wouter Vuijk

It's Kirwan

I don't understand why so many people who seemingly adore the musician don't even know how his name is spelled. This goes to biographists as well.

Yeah you do see this a lot, no? But I guess it's fairly understandible, considering how the name is pronounced. I say Kir-win as opposed to Kir-wan, but I suppose it can be pronounced both ways. Wonder what Danny would say on the matter?

Hey I used to think it was Lindsay for a good long while, so I think we can all strive to be forgiving.

[doodyhead]

Originally Posted by snoot

Whatever you report back I will respect.

http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showth...t=15690&page=2

maybe some of us are just old hippie bluespeople and we don't have to get Bob Welch


Oh Well.


doodyhead

But it's not like we don't

[snoot]

Originally Posted by doodyhead

maybe some of us are just old hippie bluespeople and we don't have to get Bob Welch


Oh Well.


doodyhead

But it's not like we don't

Yeah I understand it, believe me. Some get thrown by his voice, others by the shades of jazz and funk he often fuses into his work. Or maybe his offbeat progression. But that ****er is as cool as they come. He is also an all-star performer on stage. Beyond that, I know of few other big guns from the past more thoroughly immersed in the digital conversion. He's also one of the easiest guys to talk to in the world, and smart as hell.

Hey don't mind me though, I love It's A Beautiful Day, the Moodies, Bread, the Carpenters and ABB in equal measure. The truest sign of hippy dippiness. To each their own though, blues rockers are a devoted bunch!

[snoot]

I should add that some consider the quasi-disco embellishments found fused within French Kiss and Three Hearts a faux paus. For blues enthusiasts in particular, that could be considered going overboard (or off the deep end), and exposure to it would be akin to ingesting the wrong kind of kool-aide. And in all fairness, with few exceptions disco did suck. But then, so did most of the punk and grunge and techno that followed on its heels. Even psychedelia, when carried to its improvisational-and-free-form-to-no-end limits, almost brought rock to its knees way back when.

But I happen to feel Bob's FK/TH pair were the best and most stylish fusion of rock and disco from the era, mostly because the disco elements are more of a draping, as opposed to the core or center. Plus it's metered ever so slightly. Boz Scaggs pulled it off likewise, at least on a swig of his stuff. As for Welch's post-FM productions, some were stronger than others. But if you can't appreciate at least a Best Of Welch collection, you flat out don't groove to BW, or appreciate his unique style and approach.

[doodyhead]

Originally Posted by snoot

Yeah I understand it, believe me. , I love It's A Beautiful Day, the Moodies, Bread, the Carpenters and ABB in equal measure. The truest sign of hippy dippiness. To each their own though, blues rockers are a devoted bunch!

Where I go south with this is when everything turns into pop.
Its one thing to create music for music's sake, its quite another to craft pop tunes just to sell them. While many become stars by creating music, The music industry is just that... an industry. you might as well get Clay Aiken in your band.

"A Beautiful Day, the Moodies, Bread, the Carpenters and I assume you meant ABBA"

What do they have to do with anything? ((I get that It's a beautiful day was a SF band" but hardly prime movers in any cultural movement")

In the 60's no white folk really knew what the blues was. I have reason to believe they still don't.

Bob Welch is good in his own right. But Pop culture is just too fickle. "Another Roadside Attraction"

doodyhead

[snoot]

Originally Posted by doodyhead

Where I go south with this is when everything turns into pop.

A lot does I agree, but certainly not everything. Sometimes things do evolve (devolve) out of control, or towards the maudlin. One simply has to be discerning.

Its one thing to create music for music's sake, its quite another to craft pop tunes just to sell them. While many become stars by creating music, The music industry is just that... an industry. you might as well get Clay Aiken in your band.

Fair point. But of course it all comes down to varying degrees, does it not? I mean I can listen to the Carpenters for something soft, then there's The Ohio Express (ouch). Both are well known pop outfits, only where the Carpenters' Solitaire (to use but one example) is fresh and moving, Yummy, Yummy Yummy is syrupy spuds. That's nothing more than bubblegum! My point is, there is good pop, and bad pop. There's also great pop. Much of that evolves over time into what we call standards.

As for canned music, the kind produced by the big production units solely for buckaroos and little more, that's considerably different than that done primarily for artistic achievement. True artists don't sell out cheap, whether they're pop, rock or blues constituted. Even at his quasi-discoed best, Bob Welch can't be used in the same breath as the Backstreet Boys, NKOTB, Milli Vanilli, or any of those other choreographed androids! [not by a sane mind anyway] Often you need look no further than who's producing the work, and who plays on it!

But even here things can get a tad blurred. There's not much Beach Boys on BB albums outside of their vocal tracks and sometimes a bit of Carl's guitar, but those are classic west coast tunes they produced all the same. Brian Wilson is widely considered a modern musical visionary of the first order; even McCartney freely tips his hat to him. But Wilson opted to employ the best WC session musicians money could by - and that formula obviously worked. To some it's "pop" and little more, to others it's surf music at its apex (Dick Dale and Ventures be silent). No thunder, no upheaval, no pain, just pure sunshine. OTOH when news broke The Monkees - an early example of a "prefab" invention if there ever was one - were doing the same thing, the gig was up. They hit the ground like a led balloon on full afterburners.

We also have to be real. Almost all art and music is produced for money one way or another. These guys have to make a living and feed themselves, plus have something in the kitty to help finance their next projects, whether it be from their own accounts or the record company ones. How do you possibly get around that? That doesn't equate to a "sell-out" by any means!

"A Beautiful Day, the Moodies, Bread, the Carpenters and I assume you meant ABBA"

No I was referring to the yankee ABB = Allman Brothers Band

What do they have to do with anything? ((I get that It's a beautiful day was a SF band" but hardly prime movers in any cultural movement")

Those were just a random handful of acts to show the range on what true hippie dippy types can groove to all at once. A fairly broad curve, from mellow yellow to southern fried rock, and running the gamut from weepy pop ballads to mean ol' jams. All from the same time frame mind you. Hey you may want to sample IABD [It's A Beautiful Day] if you want a taste of cultural renaissance. No joking either, if you can handle a little electrified violin (ouch that must hit a blues junkie right where it counts, in the package). Talk about a walk on the wild side. [My guess is Sugarcane Harris is doing this from wherever he rests => ] LaFlamme FTW!

Go listen to White Bird, Hot Summer Day, Wasted Union Blues, Girl With No Eyes, Bombay .. ah hell, the entire album from their first self-titled release in '69. That's SF psychedelia at its breezy best. Now fire up IABD Live At Carnegie Hall from 2 years later, only crank it up! Then come back and thank me for the turn on. I'll break you blues purists yet.

In the 60's no white folk really knew what the blues was. I have reason to believe they still don't.

Some of the best blues ever recorded were done by white artists, right in our lifetimes. Where they may imitate, pimp and snatch at times, they also elevate, refine and reinvent in their own right. Tell me Green's work doesn't do something for you? How 'bout an hour of Stevie Ray Vaughan? It's all how you come to view it. Also, what would those great black man blues be without their own "traditional" song structure borrowings? And that was from white folks way back when, dig? You don't get that "pure blues" sound from the jungles of Africa, do you? That's because it's a hybrid fusion owing much of its own development and evolution to additional music forms, white mans' forms as it were, but tethered and broadened from the plight of their own unique experience. Same with rock n roll. That genesis is no more black based than white, borrowing every bit as much from western, country, popular and traditional standards as anything else (R&B, jazz, blues, etc.).

That's the largely unwritten story, the one not always brought to the fore by the ultra modern scribes. I guess it isn't deemed "cool" or "hip" enough, since our white ancestors were obviously all living in laps of luxury. [I'm not even sure they worked, thus no pain, no gain... let me check on that one though.]

Bob Welch is good in his own right. But Pop culture is just too fickle. "Another Roadside Attraction"

"Another Roadside Attraction"? What the #$*%$!!! Those are fightin' words let me remind you. You bluesmeisters sure know how to put the sting in anything deviating from a purely black n blue norm. Time to circle the wagons, again!

[doodyhead]

Dear Snoot,

no fighting here.

I just wanted to see how far you would go

I bought the original "It's A beautiful Day Album
White Bird and The Dolphin were great songs.

Hippie? That died in 1967

POP, god help us, will live forever. You or I just won't recognize it

great to have you posting

vinnie c

[snoot]

No fighting, not to worry there. Any "smoke" you see from me is either rhetorical, or for purposes of humor. I'm an old **** kicker, so it's water off a duck's back, believe me.

As for the era of the hippie and tree dwellers, yeah that died long ago. Inexorably. "Hippy dippy" better captures it, a la Carlin. Born in the right spirit perhaps, but the whole thing soon went too far. When the Merry Pranksters showed up proadly boasting "We have come for your daughters" in their LSD laden Kombi bus, you knew the end was within sight. I love a lot of the psychedelic era sound, but those free form excesses were mostly misguided. Even Peter Green got caught up on that merry-go-round without brakes, and if that first solo effort of his was any measure of it, it couldn't end soon enough. "End of the game" captures it rather succinctly, and ironically.

Now that I know you're hip to IABD, you might want to sample IABD Live At The Carnegie as I mentioned earlier (if you haven't already). I say that because you will see that those Haight Ashbury "hippies" could ROCK, and with style! Singer Pattie Santos (RIP) is something else as she pairs off against David LaFlamme, plus you get some great workouts with Bill Gregory on guitar and LaFlamme on violin. Val Fuentes timing on the sticks is flawless throughout, and Tom Fowler (later of Zappa fame) will flat out floor you with some of his bass chops. And if you think they had trouble finding a worthy replacement for Linda LaFlamme, since she was so skillful on the keys but departed not long after that eponymous release, the late Fred Webb more than meets the mark. What a find!

POP, god help us, will live forever.

Great line. But hey, like Lennon once said, give pop a chance!

Couldn't resist. Chops Vinnie.

[snoot]

Hey Vinnie, one last thing - and this goes for seekerj and anyone else who cares to add their 2 cents on the issue. I'm still curious as to why you view Welch's stuff as second rate, or if that's overstating it a bit, then at least not worthy of Greenie and Kirwan's tandem stuff. You really don't find his riffing with Weston compelling, esp on Mystery To Me? Sure it may not be anchored in the blues, but damn if that isn't some creative tracking those two guys do, with guitar embellishments cued like confetti on a tickertape parade.

[doodyhead]

Somewhere in all of this was Peter Green needing a band to focus his vision.
He named them Fleetwood Mac so they would have a musical life after he left.

for discussions regarding Bob Welch see "Pre Rumors" section of this message board

sincerely,

doodyhead

[snoot]

Originally Posted by doodyhead

Somewhere in all of this was Peter Green needing a band to focus his vision.
He named them Fleetwood Mac so they would have a musical life after he left.

for discussions regarding Bob Welch see "Pre Rumors" section of this message board

sincerely,

doodyhead

COP OUT

You bloody blues wankers, it was as much by Green's hand as Danny's that they moved from their blues core. Please don't tell me Welch couldn't do the blues thing either, even if he added a little swing or jazz scaling to some of his stuff. Same goes with Kirwan! Don't be a prude.

I would argue Peter's vision was never more focused than when he was looking Danny square in the eyes.

And remember, this is just one thread in the Green forum, a rather active one so far. Isn't that worth some consideration? It's not like an invasion throughout. Besides, you can also get things off your chest, lamenting their unfortunate turn in direction if you care to. IMO it's the ideal place for a more in-depth discussion of FM since 1) some Greenies never venture out of their barricaded, self-imposed cubbyhole here, and 2) some of the most dedicated of the Mac faithful are -- um, er, *cough* -- blues purists (dang I almost choked).

[dino]

some Greenies never venture out of their barricaded, self-imposed cubbyhole here, and 2) some of the most dedicated of the Mac faithful are -- um, er, *cough* -- blues purists (dang I almost choked).

Hey, let them be if they want to . They way I see it, Mac's creative zenith was the Green era. The rest is well made, pretty standard pop. Nothin wrong with that. The innovative stuff from 69-70 still sounds fresh today. I like to listen to the Welch stuff (after Kirwan left) and BN eras too, but only for...diversion. Sometime you do need cotton candy, but the flavor quickly wears thin.

[snoot]

Originally Posted by dino

Hey, let them be if they want to . They way I see it, Mac's creative zenith was the Green era. The rest is well made, pretty standard pop. Nothin wrong with that. The innovative stuff from 69-70 still sounds fresh today. I like to listen to the Welch stuff (after Kirwan left) and BN eras too, but only for...diversion. Sometime you do need cotton candy, but the flavor quickly wears thin.

I actually like all three eras equally well. I could say the same thing my friend, that blues flavoring inevitably wears thin when that's all there is, often quickly. I also give the Mac's 1970-1974 projects marks far above "pretty standard pop". Some claim Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac were little more than "white man blues", making them second class by implication. That's pretty absurd, but so too is saying that which followed on its heels wasn't innovative. My estimation and appreciation of music doesn't hinge on the earth-shattering or "full curve" in each instance. It actually has more to do with the vibes it gives me. My foot often tells me if it's working.

[stubbie7]

Still liking this discussion. As another one of those aging/old/former/whatever hippies I don't always remember things unfiltered through the fogginess of time but I seem to remember being more upset when DK left than PG. I am Danny's age and somehow always related to him. I also didn't really discover FM until Then Play On; had to work backwards to discover the older stuff. So I knew Danny longer. I remember frequenting the local record stores (remember when you could go in and you knew exactly which ones had just come in? And you could spend a couple hours going through ALL the records?) constantly searching for a new Fleetwood Mac album. I remeber picking up the first one without DK and being crushed. Then discovering it was still a good album (that was Mystery to Me, right?)

I didn't really feel the same way when Peter left. Although I could really FEEL the difference in the direction of the music. I didn't really realize what it meant until later, as I matured and let all the FM music flow into my genes. One memory was finding the bootleg Merely a Portmanteau (think that was the name) and picking up "The Original Fleetwood Mac" vinyl and being happy that, although it wasn't a "new" album but it was stuff I didn't have. I did buy the first album without Bob and remember also being disappointed. Although I can appreciate that era, that was the final "new" FM album I ever bought. By this time my tastes were heading back to the blues and into the new country stuff so I quit buying albums by FM.

Fast forward to now and it is still a little like that. Finding cd releases of material or versions I don't have. My latest acquisition, earlier this year, was Madison Blues. Really liking this album. I always felt that the Kiln House era demonstrated really well the direction the band was headed and had Jeremy not left what direction the band could have gone and just how good they would have been as that 5 piece band. Although, I forget which song it is, but toward the end of Madison Blues, in the live stuff, there is a DK solo that I also think demonstrates the beginning of Danny's decline. Sometimes you can hear a solo and the guitarist might miss or mess up but you get an idea of what he is trying to do. Man, that one song I really have no idea what Danny was trying to do. And yet, Bare Trees and Future games were still to come so he still had a lot of good stuff coming. Make sense?

As a (pretty lame) guitarist myself I find that the only period of FM's music I try to learn and play is Peter Green era music. That is where my new appreciation for what he did comes from as well as my still huge appreciation for DK's guitar playing. I will never even be close to the caliber of either of them but figure I could have worse goals.

[Wouter Vuijk]

Originally Posted by stubbie7

I will never even be close to the caliber of either of them but figure I could have worse goals.

I can fully agree to this as can probably many amongst "us guitar players".
Keep up the spirit, however.