10/06/2013 Cologne, Germany - Lanxess Arena

[elle]

video mashup - snippets from the show -

[Deeshere]

Originally Posted by CADreaming

Oh, I agree - I meant people leaving because of the bashing instead of the bashing being discouraged and everyone being active and part of the discussions without tearing down any and all the members of the band.

You know I'm 100% behind you on this. I don't get the bashing either. You don't have to like ALL the members of the band. You can like Stevie, or Lindsey, or John, or Mick or any combination of the current 4 members (+ Christine), but just because you dislike a certain member of the band and someone else likes them, does not give you the right to bash that members views or that member personally.

It also doesn't give you the right to gather your friends up and have a party tearing someone else down. I hate to see new people post questions or make a observations (not understanding the unwritten rules on this board) only to get run off by someone they accidentally completely unintentionally upset.

I get that a lot of members on this board are personally invested in certain members of the band, and feel like it's their duty (as a friend/fan) to defend that member to the death. It's an admirable quality (loyalty) to have. However, I can't imagine anyone in the band being happy to see the fan's fighting amongst themselves and splintering the fandom apart. Remember Mick, John and especially Lindsey want to see Fleetwood Mac keep going. (Stevie's still thinking about it)

You don't have to like or agree with everything someone says and you can disagree with the views of anyone on this board (including me), but disagreeing and bashing are very different things and it really needs to stop.

[Deeshere]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Yeah, an active board would be nice, but I don't want it that badly.

Michele

I don't agree with you on this, but I still love you.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Deeshere

I don't agree with you on this, but I still love you.

That's why this place doesn't appeal to everyone. I would say it's not really a place for passionate Stevie or Lindsey fans. I wish that wasn't the case, but it's the truth.

If I want to say that Stevie's twirls are more comical than exciting, I will. If I want to say Lindsey's OMS was the worst tour he's ever done and that it hurts me that he ruined ISA, I will.

If I want to say I will burn all his records if he sends my dame back to Cumbria with a corncob (er, hair clip) in her hand, I will.

I don't see any point in praising everyone to death and there's no one I like enough to praise all the time anyway.

But that kind of commentary whether you mean it in a mean way, a humorous one or just an irreverent one is ALWAYS going to upset someone either way. That's why people are not happy here and it's best that they go to places where people don't talk like that and agree with them.

Michele

[Deeshere]

Originally Posted by michelej1

That's why this place doesn't appeal to everyone. I would say it's not really a place for passionate Stevie or Lindsey fans. I wish that wasn't the case, but it's the truth.

If I want to say that Stevie's twirls are more comical than exciting, I will. If I want to say Lindsey's OMS was the worst tour he's ever done and that it hurts me that he ruined ISA, I will.

If I want to say I will burn all his records if he sends my dame back to Cumbria with a corncob (er, hair clip) in her hand, I will.

I don't see any point in praising everyone to death and there's no one I like enough to praise all the time anyway.

But that kind of commentary whether you mean it in a mean way, a humorous one or just an irreverent one is ALWAYS going to upset someone either way. That's why people are not happy here and it's best that they go to places where people don't talk like that and agree with them.

Michele

I agree with you. You should be able to say if you like or don't like something, without having someone else attack you for your views. No one's going to agree with everyone all the time because we are all different people with different points of view, likes and dislikes etc... It's not the fact that anyone on this board disagrees with anyone else on this board that's a problem. It's the fact that sometimes the disagreements become personal or a member is mocked for their point of view or for asking questions that's a problem.

I doubt that most of the members on this board would stand by and watch a kid or a group of kids bully another kid and not say something to try and stop it, and just because this is a message board and not a school playground does not change the fact that it still bulling and very distasteful.

If my being nice to you and trying to complement you upsets you, I will quit. Why do I do it? Oh I don't know....maybe because it appears that you are in a bad mood and I'm trying to make you feel better or maybe because I know attacking you will not endear me to you and I am trying to be your friend. However, either way I know it's hard to attack someone when they are trying to be nice to you, so I will stop.

[elle]

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Deeshere

I doubt that most of the members on this board would stand by and watch a kid or a group of kids bully another kid and not say something to try and stop it, and just because this is a message board and not a school playground does not change the fact that it still bulling and very distasteful.

Yes, bullying is bad, but like "rape" I think the term gets misused and diminished. Of course, the definition or recognition of what is bullying varies from person to person and depends on if you are the one saying something that the other person disagrees with or if it's vice versa. When I was in school I couldn't leave a cliquish, hostile environment. At work, you can't always do it as fast as you'd like to either. Luckily online -- at least on a music forum like this -- we can go and don't have to put up with rudeness and ostracism. We can find a place that not only suits our interests, but temperament too. I know I've done that, not only with Fleetwood Mac, but in the old days with The X-Files too.

Today, I don't do Facebook for Fleetwood Mac, but I certainly see the appeal that the different Facebook pages have to offer. Everyone can kind of seek out what works best for them and pick and choose or "friend" those who are most companionable. We may not have all the website options we used to have like Seven Wonders, etc., but social media gives us many more options than we had even 5 years ago. At least that's something to celebrate.

Michele

[Deeshere]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Yes, bullying is bad, but like "rape" I think the term gets misused and diminished. Of course, the definition or recognition of what is bullying varies from person to person and depends on if you are the one saying something that the other person disagrees with or if it's vice versa. When I was in school I couldn't leave a cliquish, hostile environment. At work, you can't always do it as fast as you'd like to either. Luckily online -- at least on a music forum like this -- we can go and don't have to put up with rudeness and ostracism. We can find a place that not only suits our interests, but temperament too. I know I've done that, not only with Fleetwood Mac, but in the old days with The X-Files too.

Today, I don't do Facebook for Fleetwood Mac, but I certainly see the appeal that the different Facebook pages have to offer. Everyone can kind of seek out what works best for them and pick and choose or "friend" those who are most companionable. We may not have all the website options we used to have like Seven Wonders, etc., but social media gives us many more options than we had even 5 years ago. At least that's something to celebrate.

Michele

OK...just to clarify what I think your are saying is this. It's OK to attack another member on this board if you don't like his/her views or what they say, because if they don't like it, can't or won't fight back they can always leave this board and go somewhere else where someone will either not attack for their views/comments or might agree with them and maybe "friend" them.

Is that right or am I miss understanding what you mean? Because I am not talking about disagreeing with someone over a point of view or a comment that's made. I'm talking about nasty, sarcastic attacks that can and sometimes does happen when a member(s) doesn't/don't like what someone else says.

[iamnotafraid]

SUPERDUPERMODERATOR IAMNOTAFRAID
Request peace - please.

I think it's the same on any forum. At least
that's my experience. From Elvis, Guitars to
the Mac.

It doesn't hurt my feelings if anyone bashes
them (whomever, whatever), if I have an interest
in them that's what matters. If I happen to find
people with the same interest and sense of humor,
even better.

Not that it matters, but this place is tame compared
to one of the Elvis forums I visit.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Deeshere

OK...just to clarify what I think your are saying is this. It's OK to attack another member on this board if you don't like his/her views or what they say, because if they don't like it, can't or won't fight back they can always leave this board and go somewhere else where someone will either not attack for their views/comments or might agree with them and maybe "friend" them.

No, I'm not saying it's ok to attack other members. In fact, I think this is a heavily moderated board that expressly discourages personal attacks. And I know it is not the flame-war laden attack mob that it was several years ago.

But people don't agree on what is an attack or what is not. When a person is sarcastic or mocking themselves they think that's dandy. When they're on the receiving end of it, it's bullying.

Talking about Stevie's twirls is not bullying. I don't care if that interferes with someone else's enjoyment of Stevie. The other day, when Gold Dust Boy posted about his concert experience, I didn't know why Elle asked him about his mother's view of Lindsey. I can certainly understand why he reacted the way he did and there was back and forth and I don't think there was anything wrong with that. Later, today, there were posts that took a different turn and discussed obsession, jealousy and personal motivations which were removed from this board for being out of line. And posts like that will be removed in the future.

But obviously, not everyone will agree with what is and what is not out of line in their book. So, yes if someone feels the atmosphere here is always oppressive, it's not going to change. You're not going to be happy here. And why stay in a place where you're unhappy and feel victimized when there are so many other alternatives.

Michele

[Deeshere]

Originally Posted by iamnotafraid

SUPERDUPERMODERATOR IAMNOTAFRAID
Request peace - please.

I think it's the same on any forum. At least
that's my experience. From Elvis, Guitars to
the Mac.

It doesn't hurt my feelings if anyone bashes
them (whomever, whatever), if I have an interest
in them that's what matters. If I happen to find
people with the same interest and sense of humor,
even better.

Not that it matters, but this place is tame compared
to one of the Elvis forums I visit.

I'm happy that you can take the verbal punches members lobby at you and not be offended. I honestly don't want to argue with anyone, I much prefer peace to war. However, I can't see that it's OK to make nasty viscous attacks on anyone, just because you can or that the other person can leave if they don't want to fight back. I mean what's the point? You not changing the other persons point of view by attacking him/her. It seems the only reason to do it is for pure malicious pleasure and making you feel better about yourself at the expense of another persons pride. And the fact that it's prevalent on other boards and accepted does not make it OK. It simply proves that there are a lot of angry people in the world taking that anger out on someone weaker and no one there to stop them.

[iamnotafraid]

Originally Posted by Deeshere

I'm happy that you can take the verbal punches members lobby at you and not be offended.

the fact that it's prevalent on other boards and accepted does not make it OK.

You're absolutely correct that it doesn't make it "ok".
And for the record, I haven't read every post in this
thread.

I usually don't get offended if the insults are directed
at me, for what I like and don't like musically. What I
do get tired of is the Christian bashing that takes place
regularly on The Ledge. For some reason that must be
okay with the moderators. Want proof? Just take a little
glance over at the Chit Chat section. If I'm thrown out
for that - so be it.

[Deeshere]

Originally Posted by michelej1

No, I'm not saying it's ok to attack other members. In fact, I think this is a heavily moderated board that expressly discourages personal attacks. And I know it is not the flame-war laden attack mob that it was several years ago.

But people don't agree on what is an attack or what is not. When a person is sarcastic or mocking themselves they think that's dandy. When they're on the receiving end of it, it's bullying.

Talking about Stevie's twirls is not bullying. I don't care if that interferes with someone else's enjoyment of Stevie. The other day, when Gold Dust Boy posted about his concert experience, I didn't know why Elle asked him about his mother's view of Lindsey. I can certainly understand why he reacted the way he did and there was back and forth and I don't think there was anything wrong with that. Later, today, there were posts that took a different turn and discussed obsession, jealousy and personal motivations which were removed from this board for being out of line. And posts like that will be removed in the future.

But obviously, not everyone will agree with what is and what is not out of line in their book. So, yes if someone feels the atmosphere here is always oppressive, it's not going to change. You're not going to be happy here. And why stay in a place where you're unhappy and feel victimized when there are so many other alternatives.

Michele

OK, I'm glad I asked you to clarify what you meant, because I understand what your are saying now and I actually agree with you.
Different people have different levels of sensitivity. I can see making a remark sarcastic or otherwise and someone being extremely sensitive feeling like they are being attacked, when the remark was not even intended to be personal. I mean I have a pretty dry sense of humor myself,so I can see giving a flippant response to someone and catching hell for being mean.
Those types of situation can't be helped because there are so many different people with different personalities on the same board. And so in those situations I agree with you, if someone is offended by what's been said they can leave and join a site where the other members sense of humor or views matches their own.

[elle]

Originally Posted by Deeshere

I agree with you. You should be able to say if you like or don't like something, without having someone else attack you for your views. No one's going to agree with everyone all the time because we are all different people with different points of view, likes and dislikes etc... It's not the fact that anyone on this board disagrees with anyone else on this board that's a problem. It's the fact that sometimes the disagreements become personal or a member is mocked for their point of view or for asking questions that's a problem.

Yes, completely agree.

This is my take on what happened in this thread:

• There are many people who don’t like to see their favorite performer being criticized, understandably (I’m guilty of that with Lindsey, definitely!). Fans of each of the 3 songwriters in the Rumours-era Mac seem to especially strongly react to their favorite being criticized, while they are completely fine or oblivious when one of the other 2 songwriters (or Mick or John, for that matter) is criticized the same way or worse. When their favorite is criticized, that seems to be defined as “bashing”. When other band members are criticized, that seems to be defined as “being fair and balanced”.
  
• Some think that because there is not enough indiscriminate lovey-dovey-ness of a specific band member, especially the most popular one, this drives away other posters. (Judging by the number of posts and views in the threads where people fight and argue, this may be flawed assumption.)
  
• People get annoyed with the person(s) criticizing their favorite, and decide to take back and forth discussion on another level and personally attack whoever’s posts they don’t like, making up some sick stuff about that person (I guess to discredit them? Drive them away? Not sure why really.).
  
• Moderators step in and remove the most offending posts, declaring there should be no personal attacks on other board members. Criticism of the band members is allowed, since this is discussion board about them, not about the members who post on the board.

On a personal note, I am on these boards because I love Lindsey’s music. I try to provide info about projects he is involved with, and learn from others about the stuff I don’t know. I enjoy many of our discussions, especially banter and humor of many members. If I feel LB is being unfairly criticized (and yes, I feel there's plenty of that!) I try to provide counter-argument.
However, none of us are here to discuss anything about me personally, so that’s why I did and will choose to ignore posts where people are trying to get a response by making up stuff about me.

[GoldDustBoy]

Risking to have another post deleted (third in a row), I will try o explain my opinion in the most subtle way I can. I don't mind criticism towards my favorite artists, in this case Stevie Nicks. i don't consider her to be a flawless supreme being. I myself criticise her whenever I feel a need to do that, and boy, there were many occasions. What I don't understand is somebody trying to set global standards whats right, and wrong in music in a group of people with different standards and tastes. Music is an art people emotionally connect to, and identify with. There are no rights of wrongs in that. By ridiculing art many people find so close to their hearts, you are indirectly ridiculing their emotions. Giving instructions how one should feel attending a live show is preposterous. My opinion is that this should be a place to share positive experiences about a band we all obviously love, instead of competing who is right, and who is wrong. I am sorry if I offended anyone on this board, but I don't think this is a place where fans should compete in superiority of their favorite members. I waited since my teens to see my favorite band, and instead of sharing my experience with people who can truly understand that fantastic feeling, I got caught in the middle of a Stevie vs Lindsey fight. I don't address anyone specific, but hey people, cant we just enjoy what we have and love, rather then spit venom at each other. Shouldn't that be the purpose of this thread.

P.S. I am asking the moderator to leave my comment, because i really don't think its offensive to anyone. I am just trying to calm a situation that's getting uglier, and uglier...