US Health Care Bill Vote Today

[iamnotafraid]

Originally Posted by tilthefirefades

Well this bill has passed, I believe, lets see where this takes us...

Forced to buy health insurance...

So this is how liberty dies....with thunderous applause.

Stand up and be counted Democrats, this is your day.

[David]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

I just don't understand people's fear and hatred of this vague, faceless, all powerful, evil "government."

See Friedrich Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom."

Also, see Federalist Papers No. 10 & No. 51.

[louielouie2000]

Originally Posted by iamnotafraid

Forced to buy health insurance...

So this is how liberty dies....with thunderous applause.

Stand up and be counted Democrats, this is your day.

Thunderous applause is an overstatement. This whole year long healthcare battle has left absolutely everybody bloody and battered. I don't think ANYONE'S enthusiastic about it anymore (no matter what side of the isle you're on). I think everyone's just ready to have it in the rear view mirror so the country can focus on other issues. And I'm talking about Republicans, Democrats, Independents, whatever. Liberty dying is being a bit on the melodramatic side too... I can think of dozens of other laws, bills, etc past and present that did more to denigrate liberty than a healthcare bill. But again, I digress.

[SandyMac]

I just worry about the hidden costs in all of this that no one in Congress could imagine down the line.

I am also tired of all this bickering. I wish though more focus would be on jobs and the economy rather than who is controlling health care.

[louielouie2000]

Originally Posted by David

See Friedrich Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom."

Also, see Federalist Papers No. 10 & No. 51.

The common thread in all of those suggests that the Founding Fathers themselves were against partisan politics, and especially partisan divisiveness... that it would eventually erode the very fabric of our country. And there's absolutely proof of that happening today. We saw it with the backlash to things such as the Patriot Act, and we're seeing it with this Healthcare Bill. Or are you picking another point out of those writings altogether?

[tilthefirefades]

Originally Posted by SandyMac

I just worry about the hidden costs in all of this that no one in Congress could imagine down the line.

I am also tired of all this bickering. I wish though more focus would be on jobs and the economy rather than who is controlling health care.

Well Obama just made a speech about it, and he said that this reform will reduce our deficit by billions in the next decade, and a trillion in the decade after that.

[louielouie2000]

Originally Posted by SandyMac

I am also tired of all this bickering. I wish though more focus would be on jobs and the economy rather than who is controlling health care.

+1. To me, that seems to be the much, much larger issue at hand. Seems it's being bypassed for ego. But perhaps I'm just too narrow minded to see the larger picture? I'm not really for or against this healthcare bill... but I absolutely do think it's 110% the wrong time to be battling over it.

[WildHeart69]

Originally Posted by tilthefirefades

Plenty of other countries adjusted just fine I personally don't see the need for debate. It seems to be obvious what should happen, health care should be a right, and free.

That is a misconception...

The French Health Care system (considered by many to be the BEST in the world, mind you) is going BROKE and is headed in a downward spiral if things dont change. Yeah - of course all of the citizens love and praise it, its amazing! but it can't work in the US for a number of reasons and mark my words, that we will be in a much bigger hole in the long run from this.

[WildHeart69]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

Honestly, at this point I just hope something happens so I never have to hear about it again. I'm so sick of all of the headlines, bickering, and division. I don't care whether it passes or fails. In my opinion any healthcare overhaul is just smoke and mirrors if it doesn't include a public option... something which has been taken off the table months ago now. Of course, whenever this story blows over, the media will just move on to something else to beat to f-ing death, something to further divide Americans.

best bet is move to Canada??

[WildHeart69]

Originally Posted by mylittledemon

I agree. It isn't a right.

I do believe, though, that everyone should ideally be entitled to it. America, in the end, cannot afford it. They need to come up with a better system rather than pushing something for the sake of passing something. I think the protesters in Washington are a pretty big sign/indicator. I know everyone here is waiting for America to wake the f**k up. I mean that with love.

Agreed, agreed and agreed!

NZ has a pretty much similar system as we currently do here, right? I may be wrong

[mylittledemon]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

My 'husband' and I have considered the same thing for years ourselves, truth be told. We've entered an era of unprecedented divisiveness and hatred in the US this past 10 years. It just seems to be getting worse, too. I blame the media as much or more than partisan politics. It just seems everybody is so angry, all the time here these days. I dunno, maybe 200+ years on, the US is finally going through it's awkward adolescence. Perhaps this too, shall pass.

I think everyone is angry because they see the same change (for the worse) that so many of us see. I personally feel like I don't really recognize America anymore. That, or since I've gotten older - I'm just seeing it thru different eyes. In other words, seeing what was always there.

Case in point. My brother works for IKEA. I was visiting him in Atlanta last year, and I had just come into the store. He was drilling into (not wearing an IKEA uniform, mind you) some cabinets for a display he had designed. A woman walked right up to him (us) and said "How much is this?" while holding up some random designer bowl. There was no "Hello"... there was no "Excuse me"... no "Do you work here, sir?" ... Nothing of the sort. She then had the balls to yell at him for directing her to sales person! Manners, a very basic foundation of a good society, have gone right out the window.

And for Louie's argument - vote! Do what you can to change things! Well, some of us feel we've done our duty when we go vote for our senators and our President. But when you see something like this healthcare bill trying to get shoved through? It's quite plain that the politicians are not listening to the American people. (Am I wrong that the majority of Americans don't want this healthcare bill in it's current incarnation?) I'm also shocked that the whole of America hasn't marched on Washington (I expected full on rioting after the bank bailouts). I can't even watch the news anymore because it just makes me hang my head in dismay.

What to do? America, as I said before, seems caught in a spiral of it's own decline. The people do nothing, it seems out of apathy, or in my own case... The sheer mounting feeling that our voice no longer counts. While politicians grow fat... the crazies who control Iran are building nuclear weapons. While pedo priests rape our young men... We have the audacity to blame God (or at least those who believe in God) for contributing to the problem. Don't even get me started on that...

This is the same non-existent God, coincidentally, doesn't belong in our increasingly murder stricken schools. You know, I remember having silent prayer moments for schoolmates who passed and/or were sick, or dying even! That kind of prayer never hurt anybody from my recollection. I don't think the question is whether or not you should be offended by prayer in school in you are a non believer. I'm always of the mind left wondering if I even have the right to say a prayer. I think we're forgetting that the freedom to do such things is what made America what it is. It's the envy of the world for such reasons. Now? School shootings are almost a weekly occurrence. When I was in school (and I graduated HS in 1997) we never had to worry about knives, let alone guns. This dark cloud seems to have covered even the conscience of children.

But what do I know? I realize it's a whole hodge podge I've covered here and my brain was going to 10 places at once. At the end of it all, what I'm trying to say is... These problems aren't going to be solved by stuffing a mediocre, half-arsed health-care bill down the pipes. Hell, I dunno... maybe all I'm trying to say is that we should be less concerned about buying bowls at IKEA? Down with IKEA! Whew. I've preached for the year. Don't expect any more rants from me. I'm sure you'll all be the wiser.

[SandyMac]

Originally Posted by tilthefirefades

Well Obama just made a speech about it, and he said that this reform will reduce our deficit by billions in the next decade, and a trillion in the decade after that.

I really do not believe all the "cooked" numbers.. only time will tell. The numbers kept changing and as with anything government related... the costs always seem higher than originally planned. But if this actually works out, I will eat my words, but doubt I will have to. Just a gut feeling I have we all will be paying for this in one form or another in the future.

I still do not know why they could not do this in smaller bills with some common sense thrown in. Oh yeah, we are talking about politicians and lobbying groups.. my mistake.

[mylittledemon]

Originally Posted by WildHeart69

Agreed, agreed and agreed!

NZ has a pretty much similar system as we currently do here, right? I may be wrong

Healthcare is provided by the government for all people. It has its pros and cons. "Extra" healthcare is also provided by most employers for an extra bi-monthly fee. For example... you can go see your GP for about $30 and get prescriptions for a few dollars. With insurance, that allows you to go the hospital and not be put on a "waiting list." It's especially helpful if you require surgeries. I can't imagine needing a major operation here and having to wait for weeks, or longer, to get it taken care of.

[WildHeart69]

I agree Sandy- this is not a self-sustainable plan in the least bit. A MAJOR tax increase would be necessary; like 25%... If the major pork were to be cut out of the current plan we could easily have the $$ to focus on the necessary fixes

[WildHeart69]

Originally Posted by mylittledemon

Healthcare is provided by the government for all people. It has its pros and cons. "Extra" healthcare is also provided by most employers for an extra bi-monthly fee. For example... you can go see your GP for about $30 and get prescriptions for a few dollars. With insurance, that allows you to go the hospital and not be put on a "waiting list." It's especially helpful if you require surgeries. I can't imagine needing a major operation here and having to wait for weeks, or longer, to get it taken care of.

I see... closer to the EU system than US. I know Pharma Industry practices are similar in NZ, but I wasnt sure about health care delivery