The Just Thought I'd Share Thread

[louielouie2000]

Originally Posted by FuzzyPlum

Hey louielouie2000, I really hope I am not suspended for flagging this up, but this quote of yours nearly had me choking on my Shreddies...

'As far as the festering malcontent around here; the Ledge has never, ever been a bed of roses. It's actually far more pleasant and peaceful now than it's ever been. Not that we can't strive for better. All the same, I am a big believer in letting this place be what it wants to be organically. There have been other sites over the years that tried to force certain mindsets; they didn't last'
louielouie2000, October 26th 2016

First of all, my comment was regarding the Fleetwood Mac section of the board. The Ledge has never forced its members to have blind allegiances to the band or its specific members as a condition of membership. Other websites over the years have banned or refused new membership of posters because they were critical of Stevie or whomever. We don't do that here.

It is important to know that the chit chat section is a privilege, though. Michele pays to own and spends her precious free time maintaining a Fleetwood Mac website; discussion of topics not related to Fleetwood Mac is not an inalienable right. We keep chit chat going because it's a nice place for members to bond over shared interests, and humanize one another. However, the political bickering had become counterintuitive to all of that. This is why politics were put on hold around here. The Ledge is worth more than one American election.

Originally Posted by iamnotafraid

I stand by my comment.

If one can't even express views at all, then what's
the use of this place?

But if I get suspended all I ask is to do it in an open
way. Let it be known publicly. And for how long.
Whether days or permanently. Not for my benefit,
but for the other members.

Your threat is much more troublesome than my
original post. Which in fact was quite tame. And if the
comments are deleted, I'd consider that a cowardly act.

My comment was tongue in cheek, just as your not so subtle boundary testing often is. But no, when anyone is suspended or banned, we do not disclose any of the surrounding information for public consumption. The Ledge is owned and run by a private individual; there is no bill of rights here.

[SisterNightroad]

Originally Posted by FuzzyPlum

So if it is specifically a music forum what is the point in having a chit chat section at all then? If people do not 'enjoy' engaging in debate they need not frequent such pages.

If you remember well the problem was that the animosity had spread from the specific threads to the other forums, and there were many remarks among the threads in those band's forum that had nothing to do with music but stemmed from the political antipaties instead. This made people who wanted to avoid political discussion impossible to read serenely and many decided to abandon the forum altogether.

My recollection is that you used to contribute to such discussion as much as anyone.

I don't understand what you are trying to say. This is not about me, it's about respect of the rules.
Yes, before the ban I used to contribute to the discussions, trying to always be respectful of the norms, and after the ban I stopped as (almost) everyone else did, and if the ban will be revoked chances are I'll contribute again.
I don't make rules.

Not so long ago it was touted that 'the ban was never intended to be permanent and could be lifted if people behaved themselves'. Okay, so what is it to be? Adult discussion was spolied by 14 year old Ledgies.

Again I don't fully understand what you are advocating. It has been said that the ban wasn't necessarily permanent because it's true. From what I know and remember it's not the first time that a hot topic has been temporarily prohibited to blow some steam off, and you should have been a member for longer than me. Why this time is this prohibition impossible to respect?

To be clear, I really couldn't give a stuff whether people are allowed to discuss politics (or any other touchy subject) or not. However, I do find it all a bit too 'big brother' and the inflammatory language about suspending people really is beyond ridiculous.

I don't care about whether I can or cannot discuss politics here too. I'm not here for that.
I'm a member of other forums and there if someone makes Outside Themed posts they get outright canceled and if someone attempts to make provocative posts they get outright banned. I think they're a bit strict but their house, their rules.

[FuzzyPlum]

If you remember well the problem was that the animosity had spread from the specific threads to the other forums, and there were many remarks among the threads in those band's forum that had nothing to do with music but stemmed from the political antipaties instead. This made people who wanted to avoid political discussion impossible to read serenely and many decided to abandon the forum altogether.

Well, no, I personally don't recall that happening. I remember people (myself included) being annoyed with welcomechris elsewhere (about other things) but I didn't personally see anything political spreading into other forums. If it did happen (as I'm sure it did) then I don't think I witnessed it personally. However, if that did happen then the logical thing would have been to warn and then sanction individual offenders. Indeed, I'm aware welcomechris is no longer here- I don't know if thats connected.


I don't understand what you are trying to say. This is not about me, it's about respect of the rules.
Yes, before the ban I used to contribute to the discussions, trying to always be respectful of the norms, and after the ban I stopped as (almost) everyone else did, and if the ban will be revoked chances are I'll contribute again.
I don't make rules.


I am trying to say you were a fervent and valued participant in discussion. I'm sure you won't outright say so but I suspect you yourself would consider banning discussion of certain topics to be rather silly. I appreciate there are rules but some rules seem to be arbitarily made up.


Again I don't fully understand what you are advocating. It has been said that the ban wasn't necessarily permanent because it's true. From what I know and remember it's not the first time that a hot topic has been temporarily prohibited to blow some steam off, and you should have been a member for longer than me. Why this time is this prohibition impossible to respect?

Sorry, I don't recall any other occasions in which topics have been 'temporarily prohibited'. What happened on other occasions? I'd say this ban has clearly been respected; nobody has posted any overtly polictical comments. The only comments that have been made about the subject involve digs about the decision that was taken, not the topic itself. I think it was suggested the ban may only be temporary as a means for backtracking on what was a bit of an ill-judged decision.
So, it was suggested the ban be temporary as a means for cooling-off. When exactly is the ban likely to be lifted? Or are we to be on hold indefinitely? Until after the US election? And what then, another ban in the run up to the next one?

I don't care about whether I can or cannot discuss politics here too. I'm not here for that.
I'm a member of other forums and there if someone makes Outside Themed posts they get outright canceled and if someone attempts to make provocative posts they get outright banned. I think they're a bit strict but their house, their rules.

It's not just about politics, it's about heated topics in general. I still just cannot for the life of me see why people can't come to this place they know and love and engage in intelligent discussion about whatever burning issues they wish to discuss. Provided threads are clearly labelled then people do not have to read things and comment if they choose not to. The crazy thing is, any one of us can go onto any of the other forums and say pretty much anything we want so long as it isn't deemed directly offensive towards any other Ledge member. In fact, I could probably go on 'Rumours' right now and post a thread entitled 'Stevie Nicks thinks Donald Trump is a fat ignorant buffoon because...' and it would probably be okay so long as I'm discussing the views of a member of Fleetwood Mac. The actual topics themselves don't really bother me- its just the way its done and the way people are treated. 'Tongue in cheek' threats of banning valued members just for making light hearted digs is silly. I enjoy checking in on the Ledge but I dont like tiptoing around worrying about what posts I'm making or whether threads may be deemed too offensive. Bloody hell, this is the internet. There is far worse out there to worry about.

Whatever happens, please treat us contributors as grown-ups and please, please avoid the patronising tone.

[iamnotafraid]

Originally Posted by MovieStarView

I'm very confused. What is it I am missing here?

Political discourse.

[Macfanforever]

Now the hot topics are in the Rumours and Stevie forums .LOL . Most forums ban the hot topics like politics,religion and any other hot subjects. As we found out it does not take much to come unglued over opinions on things in those hot topics.

[MoonSister75]

Originally Posted by FuzzyPlum

Well, no, I personally don't recall that happening. I remember people (myself included) being annoyed with welcomechris elsewhere (about other things) but I didn't personally see anything political spreading into other forums. If it did happen (as I'm sure it did) then I don't think I witnessed it personally. However, if that did happen then the logical thing would have been to warn and then sanction individual offenders. Indeed, I'm aware welcomechris is no longer here- I don't know if thats connected.

I don't remember seeing the political comments on here spreading to other forums either, but then I don't read all the threads and posts so maybe I missed it. I was aware that it was getting nasty in here at times, and I understand the decision to take some action (...although it often gets just as nasty in the Rumours forum!?!) I agree, it's a shame that members creating problems couldn't have been warned, instead of a ban on particular topics.

[iamnotafraid]

Originally Posted by MoonSister75

I don't remember seeing the political comments on here spreading to other forums either, but then I don't read all the threads and posts so maybe I missed it.

I agree, it's a shame that members creating problems couldn't have been warned, instead of a ban on particular topics.

Like you and FuzzyPlum I don't remember seeing anything real
spilling over into the other sections. The Rumours section is much
more volatile (non-political) any day of the week than the Chit Chat
section.

Being warned personally is strange. As it's usually more of a "you guys
better stop...". Me pushing the boundaries? Whatever that means, my
posts when not being serious are meant to be taken as simple tall tales
that I hope bring a smile once in a while to some members. Also I use
the stories to break some info at times. My threads bare that out.

I wouldn't go as far as some to suggest that it's a privilege to post here
at The Ledge. I would call it a pleasure. That's closer to the truth for
me at least. If that's taken away, oh well.

[olive]

Originally Posted by MoonSister75

I don't remember seeing the political comments on here spreading to other forums either, but then I don't read all the threads and posts so maybe I missed it. I was aware that it was getting nasty in here at times, and I understand the decision to take some action (...although it often gets just as nasty in the Rumours forum!?!) I agree, it's a shame that members creating problems couldn't have been warned, instead of a ban on particular topics.

i didn't see any post either ..... BUT obviously something did happen and I have noticed one poster with ummm strong opinions and the need for control no longer here

[MoonSister75]

Originally Posted by iamnotafraid

Being warned personally is strange. As it's usually more of a "you guys
better stop...".

Yes that would have been ideal, a warning to the group as a whole to calm things down, so everyone had a chance to think about posting responsibly, to prevent the political discussion getting out of hand. It seems that the current political climate is bringing up very extreme emotions. I think it was just a bit of a shock to everyone here to suddenly find a ban, with no warning.

As Macfanforever has mentioned above, these topics often get banned on other forums - I wasn't aware of that as I don't use other forums.

Oh well, never mind, maybe this has prevented a full scale political war happening in the chit chat section.

[MoonSister75]

Originally Posted by olive

i didn't see any post either ..... BUT obviously something did happen and I have noticed one poster with ummm strong opinions and the need for control no longer here

At least it's picked up a bit in here with people posting more regularly - it was very very quiet and almost dead in here for a month or so.

[Macfanforever]

Its sad to say I just got a invitation in the mail yesterday to my class reunion which is on the same date as Stevie's show at the Mohegan Sun on the 25th of November .I have not been to any reunions yet in my life so it looks like Stevie wins with this decision hands down. Maybe next time if I'm still alive.

[Macfanforever]

Originally Posted by olive

i didn't see any post either ..... BUT obviously something did happen and I have noticed one poster with ummm strong opinions and the need for control no longer here

I dont remember seeing any leaks into other sections myself.Unless it was Stevie/FM related like I mentioned about the Mac should take over the Oval office.LOL...........

Originally Posted by MoonSister75

Yes that would have been ideal, a warning to the group as a whole to calm things down, so everyone had a chance to think about posting responsibly, to prevent the political discussion getting out of hand. It seems that the current political climate is bringing up very extreme emotions. I think it was just a bit of a shock to everyone here to suddenly find a ban, with no warning.

As Macfanforever has mentioned above, these topics often get banned on other forums - I wasn't aware of that as I don't use other forums.

Oh well, never mind, maybe this has prevented a full scale political war happening in the chit chat section.

I'm on about 6 to 10 other forums and the hot topics are forbidden on them.One other forum has a sub forum titled ."Take It Outside" which all hot topic crap gets moved over there and users can fight it out over there.None of those forums are Stevie/FM related.

Originally Posted by MoonSister75

At least it's picked up a bit in here with people posting more regularly - it was very very quiet and almost dead in here for a month or so.

Yes It picked up because Stevie is on the road. Also we picked up new Ledgies too which is great .Welcome to the board guys.Also I have to add that I took a summer break from the keyboard between July and August.When I came back .It was dead except for the" Is Stevie going to record with FM "topics.

[SisterNightroad]

I think there's some confusion among the members about how The Ledge works.
Like Louie has said this forum is owned by Michele and she pays and puts effort to keep running it for free, which in my opinion makes her a saint because I wouldn't do it even if I was payed for it. So, like all forums, this is a private space like it would be at all intents and purposes Michele's house or whatever other property. We moderators help her keeping it in order, for example removing fake profiles, spam posts or outrageously insulting posts. Sometimes if someone has collected more of the above infractions or has committed a particularly big one they may get suspended or banned; these decisions are discussed together.

To me it's obvious that the measures regard the single person alone, so they're not publicized for all the ledgies to see, this is not a courthouse and there's no need to hold people up for ridicule or otherwise involve other members that aren't aware of all the infractions the person in question may have committed.

Sometimes circumstances may arise in which "extraordinary measures" have to be applied. In fact, for example, in my early days as a ledgie I clearly remember discussions about Stevie's abortions rapidly escalated and that lead to a temporary block for, I think, two weeks. I also remember one of the oldest members saying that it wasn't the first time, and in fact a similar scenario repeated himself, even if without blocking, at least another time in my permanence here.

Now the problem is that while "overtly" political comments have been avoided, since I became a moderator I noticed many people have repeatedly poked the subject in not even a very subtle way (and I'm not talking about the criticism of the last days) which honestly feels like being jerked around. Adult behaviour and criticism aren't anything close to it.

The ban has never thought to be permanent, noone is backtracking, it's just me wrongly deciding that explaining its impermanence would have been a good decision, I thought people would have been relieved and it would have lifted the mood a bit. It seems I was wrong in believing that people would have handled the information maturely instead of jumping to conclusions on their own.
The initial idea was to restore the topic at some yet uncertain date after the elections; I was vague about it because the date is still to decide and also I don't make promises to anyone since it's a decision that doesn't rely on me alone and also if the infractions would continue it could be necessary to change plans. Next time, if you want to know I suggest that you simply ask, so we both can act and be treated like adults.

As it's been pointed out, the majority of other forums don't tolerate hot topic discussions. No one has talked of privileges but it is a bonus having a chit-chat section. Now that I'm more internet savy I was expecting the ban happening, and it doesn't have anything to do with my personal tolerance of political discussions, for example from what I understood Louie is even more tolerant than me on the topic. The ban itself in this perspective is indeed a warning.

I'd like to point out that while it may be true that there was a particularly problematic member, it would be wrong to shift all of the blame for what has happened onto him. It takes more than a single person to make a fight, maybe one is a troublemaker but he needs others that lead him on to make trouble.

Now sorry but I have to start getting fabulous for Halloween.

[iamnotafraid]

Originally Posted by SisterNightroad

I think there's some confusion among the members about how The Ledge works.

No one has talked of privileges but it is a bonus having a chit-chat section.

Yes they have, and it was a moderator.

I'll find it.

[iamnotafraid]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

It is important to know that the chit chat section is a privilege, though.

SisterN,

There's the quote as proof.